Tag: mothers

Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?

 

Melissa: Absolutely. So my name is Melissa Riley, and I am from Lititz, Pennsylvania or that’s where I’m living is in Lititz, Pennsylvania and I’ve been here for 13 years.

 

P : Oh, wow, nice. Situate us in Pennsylvania. Where is that?

 

M : It’s the southern part. It’s in Lancaster County. So if you think about Amish country, yeah, that’s where I am and about an hour and a half west of Philadelphia.

 

P: Okay, excellent. 

 

So normally, I asked people about their experience with their family and whether it affected their ideas about what they wanted in the future. And I know from our brief conversation before we started recording that the answer to this is already going to be yes. But usually I cast it in terms of like, did you have siblings did you know you want to have kids but but why don’t you tell me a little bit about your story? 

 

M: Absolutely. So I was born into a family with a mom, dad and older sister and then 18 months later came my younger sister. And unfortunately my older sister was diagnosed with leukemia. And she, unfortunately in the 70s that was, you know, a terminal condition. And so my parents were needing to take care of her. Of course, unfortunately, she passed away at the age of seven, and I was only four. And then life went on and I was very close with my mom. She was a very strong woman larger than life, both physically and personality wise. Everybody knew her. And me and my younger sister were very close. And so I did always envision myself having a family and children. Well, things started to fall apart. I went to college and learned things that you know, my family wasn’t what I thought it was. And my mother and I had an estrangement that I know we would have worked through. But we had the estrangement about eight months prior.

 

P : Let me ask a quick question. Before you get to where you’re going here. Do you want to talk about my family wasn’t what I thought it was. Do you want to elaborate on that?

 

M : sure, sure… My mom, you know, both my parents, God bless them. Our whole life was impacted by the death of my sister after she died. We never talked about it ever. Death was something that I learned was so terrible. You couldn’t even talk about which of course isn’t true. But that was the underlying message that was passed along to me. And my parents didn’t mean to do that. It was just too painful for them. Right. So we never talked about it. And my mom became pretty depressed and my mother had her own history of some significant physical and emotional abuse herself. So she had a difficult time regulating her own emotions. So my parents corporate punishment, punishment was involved. You know, I became the overachiever. My little sister became the difficult one. Because, I mean, she had learning disabilities and ADHD and she was just talking to parents. And so things just weren’t as they see my mother was at, you know, a chain smoker, you know, overweight diabetic. Just didn’t take care of herself. She tried to but just, yeah, so became her own life shrink and just became, you’ll very inward, and he didn’t like what she did too bad. Then there were things that she did that I didn’t like, and it just, you know, in my mid 20s, we were butting heads about it. 

 

P: Didn’t you become a psychologist? 

 

M: Yes. So surprisingly, as the as the good kid and a family takes care of everybody else’s needs, and makes life easy for everybody else. Since life was very hard for us when we were young. Yes, I was very good at being empathic. I could sense anybody’s motion around me without anybody needing to say the words so it isn’t surprising that I became a clinical psychologist. And I went straight through college and graduate school was in the process of getting my doctorate when my mom died. But we had an estrangement eight months prior to her death. And so that complicated that factor even more,

 

P  and had you you hadn’t repaired that before. She died? It sounds like 

 

M: no,we hadn’t. It was right before I was graduating. And we had after eight months of not talking talk to twice before, in like the two weeks before she died. And I told her I had interviews for my residency. And so we had a cordial conversation, which was awesome. I mean, so I know that we would have repaired, you know, the injuries and, and all of that, but it just, we didn’t have the opportunity. She She died at 51

 

P : yeah that’s young. And that sounds pretty shocking for your family. 

 

M: Yes, it was. It was very shocking. Yeah, I needed to be the one to go tell my sister. You know, she my sister, unfortunately, had pretty significant mental illness. She was bipolar disorder. One. She was in and out of hospitals. Since the age of 16. Pretty much she had some medical conditions herself, and then all sorts of substance abuse, but she was clean and sober for the last year. of her life. And we didn’t know because of, you know, her psychiatric conditions, it masked some pulmonary problems. And so, anyway, I’ll get into that in a second. But so my dad didn’t feel strong enough to tell my sister so I was living in Pennsylvania. My sister was living in Connecticut. My dad was living in New York. So first I went, got dad, and then we went to Connecticut and I was the one that had to tell my sister that our mother had died.

 

P: Wow, 

 

M: it’s very difficult.

 

P: This this to the outside observer. Sounds like you’re doing a lot of mothering before being a mother.

 

M Oh, yes. It sounds like Yeah. Without a doubt, without a doubt.

 

P : And so this all sounds incredibly hard. And but but you walk away from this and say, I want a family of my own. Oh, my own kids.

 

M : Well, that’s not that’s gonna happen right away. Okay. Like I said, when I was young, I did and then later said, All this mental illness or this medical stuff, because my my younger sister died seven months after my mother did so. So the the man who was married to at the time was very adamant. is like, you can’t have kids we cannot continue this bloodline. Well, the the sad divorced him, but I really internalize that sense like, Oh, my goodness, my failing genetic gene pool. Is it awesome? Right? Lots of mental illness, lots of medical illness. So for the next number of years, I was like, Oh, I don’t know that I should have any children. So

 

P  can I ask one probably naive question. Yes. How strongly do genetics predict mental illness?

 

M: considerably. There’s a significant correlation. Certain certain disorders are more highly connected with Jin genetics than others bipolar one being one of them. Okay. Yeah. But anxiety, depression, they all have a genetic component. So it’s similar like heart disease. So if your parent has heart disease, that doesn’t mean you’re going to get heart disease,

 

P:  right

 

M: It just means that you’re more vulnerable to heart disease, and it will show up under certain circumstances.

 

P : Okay. All right. Fair. Okay. Keep going. Alright. So so the we are separated from the husband, he doesn’t seem supportive. And now we’re moving on. Okay,

 

M : we are moving on. My focus is on my career. I’m a clinical psychologist. You know, I taught you know, in graduate school to development, so I’m going along, you newly married, very happy and life goes on. And I realized I do want children and so we start trying and I’m in my mid 30s At this point, and I have my first miscarriage

 

P: let me let me back here for one second year. So two questions. Question number one, what do you think pregnancy is going to be like before you get pregnant?

 

M: I didn’t really well, let me not say that. I wanted to be one of those women who loved pregnancy. I was like, you know, I doesn’t matter if I’m uncomfortable. I’m gonna love this whole process. So I was one of those women who thought it was just a matter of deciding to love it wasn’t going to be crazy.

 

P  Okay so So that’s what we have stepping in and then is it easy to get pregnant? 

 

M: Yeah, it was easy to get pregnant. 

 

P: Good. Okay, good. One thing down. Now you said the first pregnancy ends in miscarriage?

 

M: Yes, yes. And honestly, that first the first pregnancy took me by surprise, because I, you know, had never gotten pregnant my entire life, despite not being very active and preventing it for many periods. So I was really surprised, but Okay, here we go. Wonderful. I’m excited. And then miscarried and  miscarried at about 10 weeks. So that was very devastating. And I felt very alone. And I’d known my mother had one miscarriage. When I didn’t really know many other women who had of course after my miscarriage, I found out about a lot of women who had because it’s not something that’s talked about a lot.

 

P: do now that I have a psychologist in front of me, I’m gonna ask do we do we think that’s our allergy to talking about death and hard things? Or do we think it’s something in particular like culturally, or do we think it’s something particular about the pregnancy process?

 

M: I think it’s a little bit of a both. Our culture is very averse to talking about death, but we’re also very uncomfortable with uncomfortable emotion, and uncomfortable emotion is normal and natural and isn’t something to avoid distress is, but it’s really important to recognize the difference between the two and unfortunately, in our culture, we do not do a good job of differentiating.

 

P  So can you lay up Can you lay out the difference since we’re talking about

 

M Absolutely. So uncomfortable is anything that again, we don’t like we don’t want it’s unpleasant, but it doesn’t create danger for us. It isn’t something that can be harmful to us. distress, on the other hand, triggers a response within our body that activates a system that tries to get us to get away from the situation that’s causing it. So that signals potential harm to our body or our well being. So things like boredom is uncomfortable, but it’s not distressing. Isolation, right if you are isolated, because you’ve been rejected. Now, that’s distressing, because being a loan for long periods of time, particularly if you’re young, can endanger your well being if I pinch your skin that’s going to hurt. That’s uncomfortable, right? But if I were to rip your skin off your hand, it creates a wound that’s distressing, something is wrong. Does that does that make sense?

 

P So this is totally helpful and and I’m wondering if miscarriage falls in a gray area where it is it right it’s it’s this is

 

M  miscarriage is definitely distressing without a demo. That sounds like talking about it. Right and talking about our motion is uncomfortable. 

 

P: Okay, okay, that’s fair

 

M : so the experience of death is very distressing, without a doubt, but the emotion around it, and that is especially when other people are communicating and may feel uncomfortable with somebody else’s grief. That’s that’s discomfort. Okay, we try to avoid that.

 

P  : Let me try to repeat back to you what I think he said to you can put me on the right place here. It sounds like distress is something that triggers your autonomic nervous system to put you in like fight or flight. And then and that shift potentially has like, sends chemical signals to your body and has all kinds of downstream repercussions. But uncomfortable does not induce any of those interior physical things and it’s just, it’s just something you don’t want to do

 

M Absolutely. However, our brain is so in tune with thinking right? So if we start defining these uncomfortable situations as not tolerable, you know, or dangerous, then the brain reacts as if it’s distress.

 

P  All right, this is tricky. Okay. Yeah. So I’m sorry to pull you away from your story, but no, you know, these things. So I want to ask you, well, I have someone who knows. So this sounds like a really 10 weeks is way too far into the first trimester. To not have it be a really sad event. And is your partner helpful or is anyone helpful or your doctor or

 

M  yes, you know, everybody did, you know all the things that that they could, you know, and, you know, my friends were very supportive and yeah, so I had people rallied around me and and I was very happy about that. I did, but that really longed for my mom,

 

P  for someone who had had the experience in your family who could talk to you about it in a way that other people couldn’t.

 

M Right. Exactly.

 

P  Well, that sounds hard.

 

M  It was it was. So we had decided that all right. Let’s keep going. My husband had a son from his previous marriage. And he was only three years old when we met so and we got married right away. So it was for at this point, we’re like, okay, I wanted the experience of having a biological child at this point. So try again, so so we try it again. And again, I had a miscarriage and now I started to really worry, like, okay, miscarriage is very common. No, it occurs in one in five pregnancies. All right, but oh, one person having two miscarriages. Not so common.

 

P Okay, so how common are multiple miscarriages? According to researchers at Yale Medical School, about 15 to 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. This is Melissa’s one five number. I’m betting it’s actually higher than that because it’s probably not always reported. But let’s use that number as a baseline. So according to these researchers at Yale, they say 2% of women have two consecutive miscarriages, which still could be due to chance and point 5% have three. Just to give a rough idea something on the order of 3.6 million people give birth each year.

 

M :So try it again. And I had a certain miscarriage. Now all the alarm bells are going off because that is rare.

 

P  are These all at like 10 weeks

 

M ish. Well, they were getting sooner and sooner. So 10 weeks, eight weeks, and then six weeks.

 

P  Okay, and is your doctor saying this sounds like recurrent miscarriage and that’s a different boat

 

1. Started. Yes, the after the third miscarriage. She said okay, we’re gonna start doing some testing don’t get pregnant, and she took a pregnancy test and it was negative. We’re going to do a test during your next menstrual cycle, but it’s harmful to the potential embryo fetus, so it’s okay, we won’t Well, five days later, I’m pregnant.

 

I don’t know if the test you took was it? It was just I don’t know. What happened. But yes, I was already pregnant.

 

P Did you you found out because you got nauseous or you missed your period or like well,

 

M sensitive breasts. That was my telltale sign with all my pregnancies. All of a sudden, my breasts became really sensitive, very tender, and that’s not a symptom I never experienced during my menstrual cycle. So it was an unusual, so it’s like, Oh, something feels weird. So after being told not to get pregnant, I was like, take this pregnancy test. You know, and sure enough, it was it was positive. So we walk in, she’s like, Well, congratulations, which didn’t feel like congratulations. Because because I was like, I don’t know that I can do this again. 

 

P: Yeah. 

 

M: You know, and, but continue and, and I said, you know, I’ll never forget that first heartbeat that was normal and regular and healthy. It was like, Oh my gosh, you know, that hit 10 weeks. So that was this huge milestone, like Okay, can I get past that? You know, and then I did, and you know, it’s interesting Paulette, with all of my pregnancies. I’m a little different. I told all the people that were important to me, I never kept it silent. And my reasoning for for that is because I knew if I lost my child, I wouldn’t be support. 

 

P: Yeah. 

 

M: So I told everybody in my life that would be supportive and private person so it’s not like I, you know, tell people my personal business in general, but the people that I’m friends with and close with, I didn’t keep it to myself. I told them because I knew I would need them. If I had a loss again, and

 

P  this seems like the way we should all move forward, right? I can’t remember who told me not to tell anyone in the beginning. I feel like maybe it was my doctor. No, no shade intended. But you’re right that the more the course that would help you more the pregnant person in the moment is to have people who know who can help you if it doesn’t work out.

 

M  Right. Right. I’ve worked with so many women that say I don’t want to upset my family. But you’re not upsetting your family because it’s something that’s happening to you. 

 

P: Yeah. 

 

M: And if they’re upset, it’s normal. It’s okay that they’re upset.

 

P:  Yeah, this is upsetting. Yeah, 

 

M: exactly. So, so. So my fourth pregnancy comes along, and it was very nerve wracking. And here I am 37. And I knew I was high risk for a second trimester miscarriage because I had surgery on my cervix earlier in life. So I was already aware of some some high level risks for an advocate that the term you know, with a cervix just opens up spontaneously. So because of my previous my three miscarriages, my advanced age, and I had a thyroid disorder and my previous history of cervical surgery, I was being followed by fetal maternal medicine, which was wonderful, you know, the more medical supports I have around me, the better.

 

P I agree, I want to wrap you in bubble wrap. Let’s keep going. These next few months I want to 

 

M: Yeah,so here Yeah, you know, all excited and at re 26 week appointments. Just routine appointment doing the ultrasound. They find that I’m dilating. So, the nurse brings in the doctor and it’s like, Okay, we’re gonna do a stress test or you know, we’re they measure your contractions. Oh, yeah, you’re contracting and their regular you’re in labor. I’ll never forget it. I just said, What do you mean I’m in labor? 26 weeks. I know the statistics. So

 

P and it sounds like you can’t feel it really

 

M  it was uncomfortable, but I was always uncomfortable. 

 

P: yeah, yeah, Yeah. 

 

M: The week prior. I went into the ER because I had pretty severe pain in my back. And they did. They did a a kidney ultrasound. They never did a vaginal ultrasound.. I was I have no doubt I was in labor earlier and it just wasn’t caught. Okay. So I was being pulled over to the ER because it was a beast hospital within a baby’s hospital. The office was attached. And that’s when they started. I got a whole lot of shots to stop labor. I got steroids and was told okay, you need we need to do a series of two steroid shots in case you deliver for this baby we need to get the baby’s lungs here’s what we need to get his lungs developed and delivering it this age only gives us a 50/50 chance of survival. And again, I’m in this whirlwind like what you know, I my four year old, you know, son, you know, steps on my husband at that appointment. We’re all just looking at you like what is going on? So they admit me, and it felt like counting hours at that point. Like I knew there needed to be 12 hours between the two shots at the rate of survival went up if I had gotten a second shot, so literally it felt like counting hours at that point

 

P  and they’re keeping you in the hospital because they can’t turn the lever off. So the shots aren’t working to like the shots which I assume are hormones or something.

 

M I forget the name of them. I got to see the the two that were critical with the two steroid shots. Each case I gave 

 

P: Yeah. Yeah. 

 

M: And then there was a two other shots. They started with one to see that work because that would be less disruptive. And it didn’t and so then they gave me the second one which was pretty disruptive to my system and everything but But thankfully, it worked the labor stopped progressing. 

 

P: Okay, good. 

 

M: So, after a week in the hospital, and it was no longer progressing. They said okay, we will discharge you on bed rest. And so I needed to see my OB every week and that you know, maternal medicine. Well, the contractions never stopped. So I continue having contractions, which was not a big deal. What we needed to watch was if the contractions became more productive, okay, and so, we had to monitor the level of dilation. And level of effacement of the cervix. And we can only do that by going in Well, I had multiple times at that point going back into the hospital getting more series of shots to stop the pregnancy because it’s it would you know, every now and then an uptick and become more active, which was terrifying. I mean, it was terrifying. But there were all these milestones, right? Okay. So 28 weeks Alright, let’s get let’s get to you know, first it was 28 weeks then, you know, like every week was like, Okay, this UPS our chance of survival. This ups chance of survival. Because at that first appointment, given the statistics of how I was a phased in dilated they gave me a 10% likelihood of carrying to term. So I had that in my head. Okay, I have to we have to make sure that everything is taken care of. So here I am on complete bed rest. We have my stepson who lives with us 50% of the time. My husband was working full time. I had to stop working, obviously. And I only moved into this town that we lived in a year prior when we got married. I didn’t know anybody I’m an introvert. So making friends was pretty hard. I was alone. I was alone.

 

P  Yeah, this sounds this this sounds like it literally are piling one thing on top of another on top of another in terms of how difficult this is. Also I’m imagining they’re saying we’re gonna check your cervix once a week and you’re like, okay, but really, how about every day? How about every day like, wait seven days between each check and keep fingers crossed and

 

M  Well, thankfully, at the OB, you know, one time of the week and then the fetal maternal medicine at the other time we did have to appointment now it was only you know, it was only the fetal maternal medicine that did the the ultrasounds and all of that but the OB was checking the heart rate and my you know, all the typical things. 

 

P; Okay, good. Okay, good. 

 

M: So I had to find rides me was just, it was, it was really tough. And again, this was a time when I really wished I had sisters with a mother and

 

P: I’m going to stop my conversation with Melissa here. Mother Daughter relationships can and often are many things as a modern day testament to that fact. When I went to the internet looking for articles on mother daughter relationships, we will finish my sentence with the top searches, which included the words difficult, hard and complex. for most of us. Our mother is our very first attachment of the world. And the loss of that whether it’s to death or estrangement can be profound. I appreciate Melissa sharing her story. And next week, she will also share some insights into how she managed all the challenges she faced without her brother. Thanks for listening. We’ll be back next week with the rest of Melissa’s. story