Tag: motherhood

Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from? 

Naomi: Absolutely. Thank you, Paulette, for having me. My name is Naomi Rachel Enright and I am based in Brooklyn, New York.

P: Oh, wow. That’s lucky. Brooklyn’s like the place to be.

N: It’s a pretty cool place. I must say. I do love it. I love it. My son is being raised here was born here too. I do love it. And I love New York in general. Like I grew up in New York, in Brooklyn and the Bronx, actually, I went to high school in Manhattan. So I am a New Yorker through and through for sure.

P: Wow. So we’re here to talk about family so before we’re talking about the family you created let’s talk about the family you came from. 

N: Okay. 

P: So why don’t you tell us Do you have any siblings?

N: I do. I have one older brother. His name is Nikki and he is six and a half years older than me and also lives in New York. So that’s that we’re both still here. Yeah. And so

P: you have kind of an interesting story of your family moving here. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that? Because I want to get a sense of whether the context you came from affected the context you thought you wanted.

N: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So I was raised in New York, as I said, but I was born in the La Paz Bolivia by chance actually, my father had a job there for two years. And so I was born there and spent the first 10 months of my life there and I am, ability and citizen but my origins are Jewish American on my father’s side. My paternal grandfather came to Ellis Island in 1910, from Russia. And my paternal grandmother was the daughter of Lithuanian immigrants. I mean, I think, you know, sort of the borders have changed over the course of time and so I’m sure maybe that you know, it’s like modern day Poland. What do I know but Eastern European, and my mother is from Guiaquil Ecuador, and did not come to this country until age 19. She came here on a scholarship at Tulane University. So she left at age 19 for that. And my father, my mother met through the Peace Corps. Actually, my father was a Peace Corps volunteer. He was teaching English and he was teaching English in Guiaquil, and my mother was one of his students. And so that’s how they met and fell in love. And were married for 44 years, I suppose. And my brother actually was born in Guiaquil. They had thought they would live in Ecuador. They were there for a few years before my brother was born. And then they came about the time they left Bolivia so he was about 10. months, I think as well. And then my mother jokes that she’s like a salmon because the salmon returns to its birthplace right to have its children. She wanted us born if not in Ecuador than in South America. But looking by birth, yeah, she was like this will do. So that’s my origins, you know, sort of ethnic, you know, familial origins, or

P: I know from your book that having an American father and Ecuadorian mother those two backgrounds together, played an important role in your life, and we’ll get into that. But on a more basic level, did you know that you would want a child?  Did you think I’m going to have a family?

N: Yes, it’s funny that you asked that because when I was expecting my son, and I’m the mother of one child, in his first almost year of life my father was we told me that I had been preparing for motherhood since I was about five he would joke because I did I always wanted to have children. I always thought a lot about becoming a mother, wanting children how I would raise them. I used to in fact as a little girl, I would name my kids so I have these list of things for my future unborn children. So it was definitely a want of mine, you know, a desire of mine. And I think that you know, there was some truth with my father said it wasn’t a preparation, a lifelong and I’m also an educator. And so I work with children of all ages for many, many years, you know, nearly 20 years and I have a way with kids I relate very well to children, and I relate well to actually a wide range of ages…I always had some younger cousins I would take care of and use or pretend they were my babies. I have a, my youngest first cousin, I actually named him and so, you know, I felt this real, you know, sort of very connected to him. I always joke that he was my first baby, which my son does not like he’s like, actually, I’m your first baby and your only baby. So yeah, so motherhood was definitely something I wished for. And I’m very, very lucky and happy that that I achieved it. I am a mom.

(4:45) &P: Yeah, amazing. So before you got pregnant, what did you imagine pregnancy to be like?

N: Wow. It’s funny, you know, because I think that a part of me always thought of pregnancy sort of in the abstract, and I did not think of what the reality of being pregnant and and bringing a child for a lifeforce would, would be like. I remember clearly sort of the first inkling that I was pregnant, and I had, you know, sort of cramping that was out of the timeline of when I would be having cramping. And I remember thinking, Wait a second. That’s strange, right. And I had actually been my parents also sitting over there for some reason. And so the next morning I texted my husband, I said, you know, I had this strange cramping and it woke me up in the middle the night and he said he instantly thought she’s pregnant and he was like, she’s definitely pregnant. So he had the first inkling that I was, despite my having the physical sensation, he, he was really convinced that that was the, the, you know, my our child or future child making his presence known.

P: And that’s a testament to your abstract notion of pregnancy,

N: I guess. Exactly. That was like, I don’t know what that is. But But yeah, and so then it was confirmed within I guess, about two weeks from that. And my pregnancy itself was quite healthy and easy. I remember my hair looked great. I felt really great. So I would say my son was good for my curls when I was pregnant. And I was thrilled and excited. But as the pregnancy became closer and closer to the actual birth story, I remember feeling very nervous and very scared and you know, sort of this realization that you know, this is not abstract anymore. You know, this is going to happen, I’m going to give birth to a human being and I was terrified. And I ended up having a very, you know, not really complicated but it was it was a tough story because I went into labor

P: let’s go slowly here. Yeah. So tell us how how are we know today’s the day that you’re gonna go into labor like what what happens that day?

N: Well, that’s funny. Yeah, that’s part of sort of, you know, you know, the best laid plans, right. I remember packing my bag for the hospital and, you know, having it ready for whatever, two weeks or so in advance of my due date. My due date was November 24 2010. And so I had it packed and I had my novel, I had my lollipops, you know, I was like, Oh, this would be great. Thinking I was going to like to have some resort. And I remember that on was it it would have been I actually tried to have labor pains on the 24th. And so on the due date, and it looked like I might go into labor. And my husband, it was all like, you know, ready to he was like, alright, you know, we’re gonna go and we call the doctor and then it stopped. And so, you know, it’s an essence post labor and I was deeply distressed by that. I remember I was very upset because I had felt like oh, you know, this is it. You know, we’re ready. We’re gonna go we’re gonna have his kid. And it was not to be and I remember I texted uh, one of my best friends was pregnant as well and expecting very close to my date as well. And I told her and I was like off I’m so annoyed, right this this kid does not want to get out. And she said, we looked that way. It looks like he wants to see in the belly and you know he was expecting a boy. And I said, as long as he’s not past December 1, I was like, You better be born at least within a week. I said, and so you know, that week went by and that Monday before the first time where I had acupuncture, you know, sort of like get things rolling. And then that Tuesday the 30th it really started to get in motion and surgical contraction in this sort of thing out this is really going to happen you’d like we’re close you know maybe was even the mountain the night actually Monday night it was Tuesday went to the doctor you know as waddling along could barely walk, you know, huge It was huge. And I’m a fairly small statue you know, I’m not even five three and I had this huge belly and I was for waddling along and in a lot of pain I remember I love sciatic pain because of the weights and so my back hurt and I couldn’t walk I was so so uncomfortable. And went to the doctor and they said you know I think your close so you can go to the hospital and so are they actually said you can go like have a like a bite and then go to the hospital. And my doctor was of course in a realm of you know, in the neighborhood of doctor or you know, as my son was born in what was then Brooklyn Methodist Hospital, and my doctor was just about two blocks away from there. And then we went up to some diner and my in laws were in town and so my in laws and my husband and I went to have to food sort of you know, it was like, let’s have food and see what happens, you know, then we’ll take her in and sort of leisurely to the hospital. And I couldn’t hold on the food and I was not well and they all were like you know what, I think we just need to go to the hospital. We walked the block and a half or so that it was to the hospital. And I remember I remember sort of the you know, the wailing and the pain and really immediately asking for an epidural and I had I had not what I would want one I have I had totally the whole pregnancy tradition which is natural law. You know, I can do this, you know, women, you hear me roar. And

P: I hear some Brooklyn in there, 

N: did you but all of that went out the window. Right? As soon as it really came you know the pain was there and the contractions and the reality was setting in what was to come I immediately was like, give me all the drugs. And of course, you don’t get that right away. And so I had to wait to whatnot. But I remember when they gave me the the epidural and I remember immediately calming down and being like, Oh, this is a really nice room. We’re gonna get the show on the road. So it’s a very funny switch of energy and behavior. And we really thought that it would come you know, fairly soon right that I would have like contractions I would dilate and I would give birth and we’d have this baby in our arms and be shorter lives as parents and as a family of three. But oh, that actually was not the case and I dilated to eight centimeters and I ended up I remember they had to give me I was GBS positive, I remember. 

P: Yeah. 

N: And I remember that when I for that I needed to be given antibiotics, right so they wouldn’t affect the baby. And I developed a fever from the antibiotics. It’s so funny to be remembering all this right? Because it’s so so long ago really in this way it was over a decade ago. But it’s so vivid, right? It’s like I remembered as if it were yesterday. I tried to use the case ready for any transformative experience. And so I did I developed a fever, and there was a horrible, horrible storm. I remember that night there was this rainstorm, and the wind was howling and there was the rain was hitting the window. And I have all these very vivid memories of the contraction and so looking at the different points in the room. I had my different points there. I’m of the doctor and my husband everybody told me to focus on as the contractions came. And I remember one of those points was the window and so I would see the rain and I would see the branches and it looked very ominous, frankly, you know, look very scary to me. And I was like This is terrifying. Like I don’t know what is about to happen and I’m so nervous.

P: I’m not sure you want to give birth on a dark and stormy night.

N: Exactly. I was like this is not making me feel good. And of course with a fever you feel awful anyway, right? Like I had the muscle aches. I mean, it was just awful. And I don’t know my doctor I loved loved, loved my doctor, you know, I felt like he was almost like an uncle. You know, he just adored him. And he was so kind to me and so good to me. And he was a jokester a little bit, you know, they’re a funny and this is with him, you know who make me laugh and he was very funny and light hearted and warm. And so I had this very comfortable rapport with him. And I remember he said to me, you know, Naomi, I think that you’re gonna have to have a C section. And I thought he was kidding, because he’d always been funny, right? So I started to laugh. And he was completely the most serious I’ve ever seen him and he said, No, Naomi, I’m serious. It’s like we have to get this baby out, and you’re not dilating and you’re feverish, and you’re delirious because I had barely slept. And so he’s like, you’re gonna have to have a C section. And I was very upset by that, because I had always throughout the pregnancy said as long as it’s not a C section, I don’t want a C section. And so I was deeply distressed to realize that I would, in fact be giving birth via C Section.

P: Some people have overlaid feelings about the C section beyond that it’s a surgery and that there’s recovery, but that it means something about the birth. Is there any of that going on or you just don’t

N: that was 100% What was going on? For me it felt like then I hadn’t done my job I hadn’t followed through a you know, as like the woman who gives birth vaginally and I was just very upset. You know, I felt kind of like, but that’s not what I’m supposed to do. Right? I’m supposed to give birth vaginally and I’m very upset by this. So it was entirely about the narrative of what is the quote unquote, right way to give birth. 

So yeah, so that’s what it was. And of course, I was frightened of the surgery. I was and knowing that the recovery would be alongside caring for a newborn. So that was there. But I would say the overriding feeling was certainly you know, sort of that societal narrative and societal pressure of the right or wrong way to to give birth or to have a child period right to become a mother and so yeah, and so I remember I was very upset by it, and he had to really calm me, you know, they were like, listen, like you need to, you know, like you need to get this baby out and we need you to be in a good place as well right for you physically as as well as emotionally. And so you know, eventually was like, Okay, right, I guess this is this is how I’m gonna give birth right? 

And I remember, you know, wheeling me into the room preparing the whole scene, the curtain ray in front of me and my husband has scrubs and of course, my husband hadn’t slept at all either, you know, he was delirious as well. Not feverish, but he was delirious and about to become a father and so for him was also you know, this is a latch, right, and we’re not even parents yet. And I remember in the operating room, being very cognizant of not seeing what was happening, and being very frustrated by that, you know, so very sort of divorced from my own birth story. You know, I sort of felt like am I even here, right? Because the curtain was in front of me, and I couldn’t see anything. And I could only make out certain things either by what I saw or what I heard more of what I heard them saw.

P:  let me ask you a question about that. So I see section two before they put up a curtain I was like, You’re not gonna make me watch right. I don’t want to. I don’t want to see the woman sawed in half. That’s, that’s not my game. But people have said that they sometimes surgeons allowed like to have a mirror on the other side so you can see what’s happening. I wonder if that was an option for you or

N: no, that was never brought up that was never offered and I don’t think I would have necessarily wanted that per se. For me, it was more about not seeing the action of the doctor, you know, and the nurses and my husband, you know, that was more of the frustrating part to me. You know, I felt sort of alone despite having all these people surrounding me. And that bothered me, right and I remember when they finally did get my son out and I heard his cries. I said, my baby, my baby, that’s my baby. I want to see my baby. And I had to wait, you know, because of course, you know, they have to cut the cord and you do the weight and all that stuff. And so it felt to me like a lifetime. I was like, I hear this baby who I’ve been trying for the last 41 weeks, and I want that baby. I was like, give me the baby. And I couldn’t hold him of course, right? Because it’s a C section. And so my husband, he brought him you know, all wrapped up and clean. And I kissed him and I remember thinking he was the most gorgeous thing I’d ever laid eyes on that he was just precious precious. And I was then wheeled away which right I had to go to the recovery room. And that also was upsetting. I was like so I just kissed this baby who is in a world now thanks to my body and my husband, you know, and I’m not happy that I can’t be with him. And I’ll never forget that as they were really getting out. There were nurses wheeling, of course, right the gurney and they were having a conversation. But at one point I thought they were talking to me and they said to me like how are you? And I started to answer and then within moments I realized they weren’t talking to me I was like I’m actually not really here. Like no one’s talking to me was also sort of, you know, this kind of alienating isolating experience and in the recovery room. The first person I talked to on the phone beside of course. My husband of course, who was in the room with me was my cousin and my cousin is my first cousin. He’s the son of my mom’s sister, my aunt, and we grew up together. And I consider my brother, right for me I really feel that I have two older brothers and I adore him and so I always remember that he was the first person I got to talk to after becoming a mom and for him who is my older brother in essence right and has seen me grow up for him. He says you know, I can’t believe my little cousin’s a mom and remember, he was like, that’s crazy. So you know that that conversation sort of sense you know that wow life is really about to change, like it has changed. It’s about to become very different. And so I was in there and I couldn’t have water I had to do is chew my ice cubes which also aggravated me I was like I am thirsty. Like I want water and my baby. And I don’t know how many hours later it was you my son was born I think at 1:36pm and I didn’t see him till I guess like 730 or eight o’clock at night, something like that.

P: wow

N:  Maybe it was early and it was like 630 but it was you know significant chunk of time. And they’re you know when I finally got to see him and hold him in the room was just phenomenal. And my husband were watching the video and I said to him in my arms I said you grew nice and strong in there because he grew he was eight pounds and 21 inches you know he was he was a very sturdy he was a strong baby’s born with muscle you know, it’s like you were like doing like push ups or something because he was so strong and so healthy. And so Did you know In retrospect, of course it took many years to come to peace with this but I in retrospect it was absolutely right call for me to have that C section. But it was a very hard way to to become a mom and to then navigate feels initial days and weeks and even months, perhaps even years of motherhood. 

Yeah,

P: I have to say we have some similarities in our story. We both had C sections. Yeah. And a lot of the things that you described, I’ve never focused on in my own story, and you’re totally right. All that stuff is really alienating and it’s so weird to be wheeled to the recovery room. Just like you after the C section I was alone, but everything that unfolded after your C section is strange. I understand that the nurses can talk to their colleagues during work. But it’s strange to have that conversation literally right over you and ignore you in the process.

N: precisely

P: the lack of interaction sounds industrial, really just contrary to the spirit of what you’d expect after birth. Why was there such a long period before you got to eight your son?

N: I’m not sure I have a feeling perhaps had to do with having been ill right having had a fever and not having slept and maybe they thought they right from time. 

P: that makes sense

N: But it was a it was like I’m not going to sleep like Are you joking, right? I was like I still want to see my baby. So that’s not going to happen, right? I didn’t sleep at all. You know, all I did was talk to my cousin and sort of you know, count the hours until I got to see and hold my child but I think that was the thinking the thinking was you know this woman needs to rest on before we really thrust her into the the ring.

P: for so many women that that last piece does not happen. It doesn’t people don’t dilate. Fully. Exactly. What would you do? Right?

N: Exactly. No, it’s that’s actually a really good point. Because I remember you know, my family saying to me, and you know me if this had been another time or another context, there you or your son would have been in danger, right? I mean, and that really also helped me to come to peace with with a C section as well. But I remember even people you know, even people initially in those first couple of weeks and whatnot, you know, saying like telling you their own birth stories in a way that I was like, I’m not really interested in your story right now. Right because I just went through it yesterday. Right? And it was traumatic on a number of levels. And I remember that upsetting me, right that people should be like, Oh, for me, it was so simply and I went in and I went out I had a baby. And I was like awesome for you. Right? Bully for you. Right? Because that’s just not what you say to, in my opinion to to any woman who’s just given birth like it’s actually about your story. It’s not right. It’s like in that moment, it is that mother and her baby and and that journey that they took to reach that point. And and so that was also upsetting to me in those first couple of weeks. I had more than one person you know, and I get it to I get like we want to reminisce you remember, especially now right now that’s years later like it, it’s so vivid, I get it right. I get that, you know, this is a transform experience that all parents remember and want to share and share. But I think you know, timing is everything. And so that was rough too. Yeah,

P: I agree. I do think it’s like traveling to a place that people who haven’t been there, just have no idea what it looks and feels like. That’s right. It’s just it’s a really hard thing to translate into language just like just like the pain of delivery, right? Like you imagined like, you know, I’ve hurt myself before and I’ve toughed it out like this is a pain that kind of defies defies analogy, right? It’s not like anything else. So it’s really hard to kind of get there. 

P: Now that we’ve heard about your experience, I’d like to talk about how you’ve written about your experience. I don’t know if you’ve written more than one book, but you’ve written strength and soul. Is that the name of the book? That’s probably my one and only look at, which is super interesting. Take on your well, maybe I’ll let you describe it. So can you describe it?

N: Sure. Yes. So So interestingly, so you know, I describe my ethnic background, right Jewish father and Ecuadorian mother, and And so growing up there were lots of questions about like, my family, a lot of assumptions made a lot of othering you know, is that your real dad? Are you adopted, you don’t look like him this kind of thing. And so I was grew up with this way of people sort of making an oddity out of my family. And it’s always it was something that I think sparked a lifelong interest in examining identity and and racism and understanding the ways that we conceptualize of ourselves and of the world around us, and of history, and the assumptions we make and how that’s connected to to systemic racism.

P: So when we start, let me stop you there for a second because this is totally relevant to your story. So I read that beginning piece of your book about people asking you on the playground is that your dad when he comes up to you and how people treated you differently when it was just your dad and you and your brother versus all of you? Yeah, and I’m wondering how that I mean, that lives in your head. So how does that affect your thinking about I’m going to start my own family?

N: That’s a really great question. It’s interesting because my husband is white. My husband is of Irish and German origin. Grew up in the Midwest grew up in Ohio. And when I you know, when he and I became serious, and you know, certainly after we were engaged in married, and planning a family, letting a child let’s just say because we were already family, I had more than one person for sure. There were my father’s saying, you know, if you have a kid or kids, they’ll more than likely look white, right because adults my husband is white, and you are largely European in your heritage, right, and your ancestry. I mean, I’m brown skin, but I’m got a lot of European running through my veins. And so there was sort of this, you know, sort of this question, you know, what would this kid look like, you know, what would our kids or kid look like? And I remember when I was pregnant, thinking, like this, these can be light skinned, like there’s no denying in my head, and more than likely this child will be light skinned. So it’s really prepared for that possibility and more than like pure reality. And I remember once having a dream a very vivid dream, not too long before giving birth around the summer, I don’t know. And it was a sort of a golden skinned baby with, like, sort of caramel eyes and like, just very golden hair, you know, and I remember thinking, the urge, you know, maybe like that kind of maybe it’s my baby like, maybe that’s gonna look like my kid. And the truth is, I wasn’t far off because my son completely looks completely white American. There’s no one who would ever look at my son and think that he’s a brown skinned mother, and an even darker skinned grandmother and dark skinned biological family members. 

No one would ever think it and so as soon as he was born, I looked at him I was like, wow, really? This kid is way lighter than even I expected. Right? I was like, I was kind of prepared for me to be light skinned, but this light skinned you know, I mean, he looked completely white. And I remember thinking even in the hospital room, like hmm, you know, it’s gonna be interesting right to be in the world with him. A little did I know just how interesting and how challenging and exhausting frankly, it would be right to navigate motherhood with a child that most people do not associate with me. And many people discard me as he’s not afraid to discard the possibility that I could be his his mother. And that was very painful for me. Because growing up it was hard. You know, I hated when people ask me those questions. I my brother, in fact, looks just like our father. I mean, I used to joke that my brother was our father dipped in milk chocolate. It’s my father’s face. Like he is my father’s you know sort of doppelganger, really, and I look less physically like my dad, but I certainly have shared physical traits of my father. And what made it even more challenging, sadly, is that my father right to my white parent, and just falling ill soon after my son was born, you know, he fell ill in January 2011. And I was very convinced it was very serious. And, frankly, the family didn’t really believe me. And they were like, Well, you’re a new mom. You know, you’re not sleeping like you tend to be a very a worrier. I’ve always been a worrier. This is true. And so they kind of thought I was over blowing things, and they were like, oh, Naomi, he’ll be fine. He’s fine.

But I was like knowing that right was like he’s losing weight. He’s not giving him an appetite. This is not the father. I know. Right. My father always been very healthy a good eater, you know, Walker. So I was just deeply, deeply concerned from that point from January 2011. And over the course of that year, which is the course of the first year of my son’s life, my father was dying. He was dying at year and we did not receive confirmation of that until September

P: oh wow

N: September 2000. Let him I thought it was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer which we know is different. Right? And he died November 29 2011. And so the very day a year before that I had gone for acupuncture. I’m beginning to you know, begin the journey of of giving life and having a challenge becoming a mother my father died and left this world and was deeply traumatic, deeply traumatic, because not only was I close to my dad, we were the best of friends, but I lost the connection, the context in essence, the physical context or contextualization, I should say for my son from my side of the family. And so when when I’m out in the world, my mother would think goodness is alive and well. People are just scratching their heads. They’re like, how did this happen? Right because my mother looks to the naked eye people think she’s black American. People look at me and think I’m Latina, or Middle Eastern. Maybe when people look at my son, I think he’s white. And so we are three generations of the same family. And yet, right and so there’s this real fatigue, you know, and being out in the world and even with my husband and son, you know, people often just or I can just tell you, you know, they’re looking back and forth and sort of trying to figure out, you know, what’s the connection here? You know, that’s the mom, you know, I’m gonna people that actually voice these things. It’s not just that I can tell by expression and because I have a lifelong experience with people staring and wondering. They have voiced it you know, I’ve been asked how long I’ve looked after him. 

P: Oh, my God. 

N: And this is from, you know, when he was relieved, I mean, now it’s different because he is, I’ve raised my son, you know, we’ve raised our son to have a very clear understanding of the way through the assumptions that people will make about us, and how those are always a reflection of their reality. Right? Like, what they know what they want, they think they know, and not of us, which was how I was raised. I was raised to know that the questions people pose to me, were not a reflection of me. And I always felt very empowered by that. And so I think that because of that intentionality, and my parents raising of me and my brother, I was prepared to be my son’s mother. That’s what I always say. I always say to be my parents daughter prepared me to be my son’s mother. Because I was you know, super heavy armor you know, I had the armor to be able to handle the questions you have to handle the the comments, and although you know, I’m not no one is made of of iron, and so it was very painful for me often and it was particularly painful because I didn’t have my dad and so I don’t have my dad. And so it was Yeah, and my son has my father’s eyes. And so that’s another thing that’s interesting is that people are very struck by his eyes. His eyes are really striking they are he has a blue green eyes that change with the light or what he’s wearing. And so they’re really a beautiful shade. And he also it’s interesting, because it has its shape of my mother’s eyes, and so they’re almond shaped. And they’re really striking, right? Because you don’t tend to see that shape without that color. But people always say that, you know, people are like, Oh my God, he’s got the most beautiful eyes. And I have to often be like, yeah, they’re my dad’s eyes, right? And so I’m always sort of reminded of his absence, you know, in those interactions, and people often assume he’s got his dad’s like, oh, he must have his father’s, which is always actually kind of annoyed me. 

Because, right the assumption is, there’s no way that can come from you. So when I wrote this, you know, my book is is an examination of the contrast in the assumptions that were made about me with my mother and father, particularly my father, versus the assumptions made about me as a mother. And so as a mother, I’m assumed to be his nanny, his caretaker. And then growing up it was assumed that my father had adopted me. And I think there’s a lot of that’s a loaded, loaded assumptions. Because they are sort of attached to privilege and power and inequity really, right. And so I was just fascinated. I was like, Wait a second, you know, there’s something here right that there’s this huge contrast and was a suit about the same person me in the roles that I hold with these two people, one who gave me life and one whose life I brought forth, right, it was like this is fascinating. 

And of course, it also sort of coincided with my lifelong interest in examining these issues. And I’ve also worked in around this all my life, too. I was a language teacher and in my Spanish teacher and in my language classroom, we were talking about identity a lot about culture. And all of this has just been a lifelong passion of mine. And so, you know, then having a child and sort of being given this, the huge responsibility of raising a person which is just in and of itself, a huge responsibility, preparing them for the world, and then visa vie all these issues. And then of course, you know, the wrench of my father’s death, you know, sort of the twists, you know, my father having died so early on in my child’s life, and in my journey as a mother, right, like that was so, so painful for me very traumatic, very traumatic and remains a source of pain for me, you know, I think I will always be sad about it. I will always feel that absence but luckily, because of my, my writing, really, I write a lot about loss as well. And Strength of soul is also born out of that loss as well. And so I feel like you know, language for me has always been a healer. And when I’m able to write about my father and my journey as a mother, I find each and every time it feels like balm for my soul, and it’s also a gift for my son, I feel, you know, I feel like I’m giving my father to my son. My son really sort of has a sense of who he was. 

And my son has a sense of who he is right? My son knows that despite how people see him, and the assumptions they make about him, right. People do not think that he’s bilingual. People do not think that his name is pronounced in Spanish. Or of course, they don’t think I’m his mom. He’s so so at this point. He’s 11. Now, you know, he’s just ready to take it all on, right. Like, knows who he is. And I’m feel that that’s totally because of the efforts on my husband and our families parts. And so I feel very proud of that. And I feel sort of empowered by that because it feels to me like you know, the outside exterior is not going to dictate for us, you know, who we are and how we feel basically, in the world.

P: It is a tricky thing that you’re describing. And I can imagine as a child was confusing for people to constantly asked about is this your father, and to question your role as your son’s mother, maybe suggesting that there’s something that’s not right or that doesn’t make sense about a mother who looks like you having a child who looks like your son. Maybe that’s what feels offensive.

N: I mean, I think that we make assumptions as human beings regardless right? And assumptions about everything assumptions about you know, belonging, about family about what language you might speak, you know, where you’re from, etc. And, you know, I feel like that’s just a human quality, right that we’re going to do that sometimes. However, I think there’s a distinction between assuming and acting on the assumption. Right, I That, to me was the fascinating part, particularly as a mom that people would voice these things to me I was like, really, you know, I’m like you like That’s why you should keep to yourself, right? Like, why would you ask that?

P: I’m always thinking, you know, I can hear you say that out loud.

N: Like you said out loud. Exactly, exactly. I mean, the thing is, over the course of my son’s life, I have learned how to handle it so so well, I have to say because initially, I would just get upset, you know, making the anger I would feel hurt. And I would you know, just not want to leave the house. You know, I hated those mom and baby groups. I hated them. Because for me, it was like, you’re all staring at me. Like I have no place here. And I could tell that you’re like, how did that happen? You know, how is she that kid’s mom? And then I’ve only spoken to my son in Spanish in essence since his birth, right and so there’s and that to me, it’s been a godsend. It is protection for me because even though Spanish is not a private language, particularly in New York City, it is our own little sort of secret in a way right? It’s like people do not expect the child to respond to me in Spanish and they certainly don’t expect him to be like mama, blah, blah. Blah, right. And to me that feels like yep, you know, you figure that out rarely let people sort of sit there and you know, sit with that right that makes me feel you know, sort of empowered and and happy. But you know, in the beginning wasn’t like that of course right? When he was pre verbal right when he was pre verbal is like, gosh, right? Like no one knows anything here. He can’t you know, also speak to them. But I have a memory two memories that stand out from when he was quite small. He was about three when I was asked how long I’d been looking after him. I remember I was on a train platform with him and someone asked me, you know, how long have you he’s so cute. How long have you been looking after him? And without missing a beat I said since he was in utero. 

P: Oh, that’s a great answer.

N: Thank you. Yes, I was pretty proud of myself. And she kind of blanched it was like, Oh, he’s yours? And said, yep. And she goes, Oh my god, I’m so sorry. You know, I was like, I mean, I guess you know, he’s really looked like you which is not true. He does not look at me look like me. Superficially, I always say, actually, he does not look like me. But for those who look beyond the surface, the child looks a lot like me, and particularly now that he’s older, but he has my lips. He has the shape of my eyes. He has my smile. He’s a lot of my gestures. And so it was like this kid is definitely looks like me, right? But people they just see, you know, his, his light skinned his late eyes and his light hair versus my dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair and they’re like, No way, right? 

But I remember she was you know, apologetic and then ended up saying, you know, well, you know, you’re very cute and gratulations and I was like, Thanks, you know, and so ended up being sort of a passive exchange, it could have gone very differently, right. And I was trying to spin those moments to become sort of a learning teachable moment, which to also take psychic energy like that’s a little tiring for me, but I’d rather that then it becomes sort of you know, contentious, but I have another memory where he was not much older. He while he was like four. We’re on the train. And someone was staring at us. And I think sort of gone by that point, even at that tender age, was accustomed to people looking at us. And he was in his little brain trying to, you know, be like, oh, like, what is the big deal? Like, what are you looking at? You know, and I remember, he pointed at me and then look back at the person and said, Mama, and I was like, My job here is done. Like, it felt so, so affirming. To me. I was like this, my child gets it really he gets that people are gonna question I’m going to disbelieve and he’s gonna let them know what time it is. And that was at four right and so now he’s 11. And he’s just, he just knows what’s up, you know, and it makes me feel it makes me feel really good. It does. Because it’s been a hard road

P: what a moment to feel seen right when you’re when your four year old is like schooling the other train riders.

N: Exactly, Mama.

P: That’s amazing. And he’s bilingual.

N: He is he’s a native speaker of both. Yes, he is.

P: I’m So jealous because he so do you still speak to him only in Spanish or nowadays?

N: Well, you It’s funny you asked that because more and more the older she gets, you know for for particularly when it’s all of us together. It’s going to be in English right? But just the other night you know, we were having a conversation all of us you know my husband and I and after it was a dinner agenda generally, you know, the always the three lesson to speak in English but then after dinner I remember I was doing the dishes or whatever. And he started to chat with me again in English. And I said sufficiente Anglais I was like enough English, right? I was like, massive, but I will order Caressa which means like, gives me a headache. And so I told him he was like, switch, right? And so he switched, right so I feel like for my relationship with him for our own dynamic. I prefer it in Spanish right? And I’ll speak to an English in with his daughter, my husband and with other family members or like, you know, with a friend this kind of thing, but the minute I can or we can I want it to be in Spanish. And I think that’s in part because I don’t want him to lose it. You know, I feel that if he’s not using if you will lose it like any other skill. And I also for me, it’s also sort of a the cocoon of it. You know, it feels very safe and warm to me, right? I mean, it was interesting to me because when I was pregnant and expecting my son, I would speak to him in Spanish in utero. And I remember being taken aback by this because I go back and forth seamlessly for me both languages exist in my brain and had my entire life. I was also a Spanish teacher, right? So it’s like these two languages are entirely both minor, right? But all of a sudden, there was something about motherhood or impending motherhood, or Spanish became what I wanted to use. And I realized quickly that it was because my own mother spoke to me in Spanish speaks to me in Spanish, and it’s my language. Of, of comfort, I guess. Right? It’s like it’s my language of comfort in my language of safety and protection. You know, I’m sure I have even some, you know, subconscious memories of being saying you too in Spanish, you know, are you being soothed in Spanish as as a baby and as a toddler and so that was very eye opening for me, you know, to realize like, wow, like this is this language is definitely more significant in that sense. And so I remember you know, I remember when speaking to him and uterine Spanish, my husband saying who are you talking to? And I said, our son

P: in your family where you were raised, your mother spoke Spanish, did your dad speak English?

N: It’s funny. My dad was bilingual. My dad did speak. Both. But in general, yes. In general. My relationship with my father was in English, and my relationship with my mother is in Spanish. And then when we were the four of us, or as my brother got older and left the house and it was the three of us, I would go back and forth, but generally for us, like at dinner time, even if it was for three of us, it would be Spanish actually, because my dad spoke it. My husband does not and so that’s why it’s not Spanish in those moments.

 I mean, my husband however, I will say, understands, I’d say like 90 to 95% of what is said. So like whatever I say to Sebastian, he will reiterate, right like your mother just said Go put on your shoes, whatever it is, right. So he understands. And I also always say that that my son would not be bilingual without my husband’s participation. Right. My husband’s agreement, right. My husband could have gotten in the way of it, you know, it could have been like, well, I don’t speak and I don’t want to not understand what my kid is saying, you know, he could have gone there. And he did not right I think he really understood how important was to me in Tripoli, given how the world receives us, right? He knows how that is for us. And I think sometimes it makes him feel saddened and frustrated, right? Because he knows it’s not as quote unquote, easy for me in the world with our son as it is for him. And so I think

P: I’m not sure I would quote unquote.

N: Well, I say up because I say, you know, there’s other ways it’s challenging to be a parent. Right? So it’s like, it’s hard for him in other ways, basically, but in this way, you’re right in this way. It is not hard for him at all. And so I think he really was like, You know what, our kid will be battling Well, you know, like, that’s an asset. It is. It is great that you want him to be really well. And here he is, right. And he you know, I mean, he even he told me recently they were reading a book about a Mexican American character. And so there’s a lot of Spanish in the book and the girl’s name and whatnot. And he said to me that he had corrected his teacher that that it wasn’t pronounced. He said, I told the teacher that we don’t say Gente, that the G is pronounced like an H. So it’s gente, which means people and I was just for me, it was just like, this beautiful, beautiful moment of him identifying so closely right with being a Spanish speaker and with being part Latin American, and saying we you know, he was like, you don’t say, right, I was like, Oh, my God, that is so beautiful, right? Because he gave me my son, you know, because of his presumption of whiteness has a very different reception in the world, you know, than I do from incidentally as a male as well. And so, I feel sometimes that he defies you know, all of these notions, you know, of who he is and, and that, to me, feels, you know, just just, it’s a celebration for me, because I think he needs to know all of who he is in order to, to, I think, to be more present in the world and to hopefully be more connected to people in the world. That’s That’s my thinking, you know, and that’s what’s behind the whole intentionality of his name and his and his bilingualism.

P: That’s super cool. Well, let me ask you a question. Looking like now that you know what, you know, looking back, is there anything you would you would have told younger you for this journey? 

N: Wow.

That’s a great question. I think the one thing I would have told the younger me is to be prepared for, for surprises, you know, to be prepared for the unexpected. I think that when I had been thinking about motherhood, and certainly when I was closer to my within reach, right when I was married and whatnot, and you know, planning it with my husband, I had this idea that I would raise my kid with both of my parents alive and well and their participation in their involvement and I didn’t quite imagine necessarily having a kid who looks so white and wouldn’t be assumed to be mine. And I was wrong on both counts. Right. I ended up having this child with his physical appearance, and losing my father and having to navigate this new normal and this the reality versus sort of the ideal that I had concocted in my brain. 

And so I think it would have helped me to know that the unexpected may happen. And I wish I could have been more prepared, I guess, in that sense. You know, I would have told my younger self she knows me like you don’t know what’s going to happen and be prepared for anything to happen basically, because he was he was a rude awakening to realize, like, Oh, this is gonna be a very different journey than what I expected. What I thought I would have and I think now certainly since losing my dad, and since you know, sort of having these immensely transformative experiences happen within a year of each other. I am now that person right now, I know not to think I know what’s going to come. Right. And like, actually, the only thing we know is that we don’t know what’s going to happen. Right. And I think that is actually healthy, sort of more of a protection in a way right? I mean, even with a pandemic, right. I mean, as devastating and as traumatic as it’s been, you know, in gradations, depending on what your personal story is, but I think it’s been globally traumatic, in a way I sort of was like, Okay, this is what we have to live with. Now. Right? This is what we have to deal with to roll with the punches over what they signify. So live in a global pandemic and wear masks and get vaccinated and do remote school and all these pieces. And I feel like my own tragic loss, kind of prepared me for that in a way you know, that tragedy will and may, you may or her and you have to find a way to integrate that tragedy and continue forward.

P: Yeah, that’s good advice for all of us. For younger you and for all of us now. 

N: That’s right. Yeah. 

P: Naomi thanks so much for sharing your story and I will put a link in the show notes to your book on Amazon.

N: Yes, a link to my book. And if you’d like I can also I can send you a couple of other links to other like through sites of of my work, and you could link those as well. I’m I’m very active on LinkedIn. So maybe that’s also linked if people wanted to connect or so I’ll send you those. I’ll send you more links for you to include in the in the episode.

P: Awesome. Thank you. So much.

N: Thank you, Paulette. This has been great.