Since it’s Thanksgiving weekend, I decided to make this episode about family. And in that spirit, I interviewed my mother about her experiences of pregnancy and childbirth. My mother, who is in her late 70s, had four kids starting in 1966, and ending in 1978. You’ll hear her reference my two older brothers: Josh who is the first born, and Teddy who is the second. I was the third in line, and there is an 8 year gap between me and my sister Samara. It’s surprising to hear about how much she changed and how much the medical apparatus around pregnancy in general changed in that 12 year period. Of course, this is just one woman’s story, and my father was a doctor, so she had very good access to different medical technologies, which you’ll hear about, but I found it really interesting to hear about how her experiences were so different from how pregnancies and births are managed today. And I hope you do too.
Hypnosis in pregnancy
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/hypnosis/about/pac-20394405
Female Gynecologists in the 70s
https://www.latimes.com/health/la-me-male-gynos-20180307-htmlstory.html
Audio Transcript
Paulette: Hi Welcome to War Stories from the Womb. I’m your host, Paulette kamenecka. I’m an economist and a writer and the mother of two girls. Since it’s Thanksgiving weekend, I decided to make this episode about family. And in that spirit, I interviewed my mother about her experiences of pregnancy and childbirth. My mother, who is in her late 70s, had four kids starting in 1966, and ending in 1978. You’ll hear her reference my two older brothers: Josh who is the first born, and Teddy who is the second. I was the third in line, and there is an 8 year gap between me and my sister Samara. It’s surprising to hear about how much she changed and how much the medical apparatus around pregnancy in general changed in that 12 year period.
Of course, this is just one woman’s story, and my father was a doctor, so she had very good access to different medical technologies, which you’ll hear about, but I found it really interesting to hear about how her experiences were so different from how pregnancies and births are managed today. And I hope you do too.
P: So hi, mom. I appreciate you letting me tear you away from Thanksgiving mingling, thanks for coming on the show.
Lily: Thank you for having me, anytime.
P: Exciting. So I thought I would focus on a couple things. with you because you started having kids in 1968 is that when Josh was born 66 Oh, wow. 66 Okay, so you’re you’re pregnant and 65 Right. You obviously wanted a family?
L: Yes.
P: And and you got pregnant easily. I know that part of the story.
L: Yes.
P: Did they have home testing kits when you were pregnant?
L: I’m trying to think no, you sort of found out the hard way. Once you got sick nauseous.
P: Oh, that’s interesting, so you just. You started to feel poorly and then what you went to see the doctor.
L: No, I didn’t I had a doctor in the house.
P: What you need to know here is that my dad’s hematologist.
L: Yeah. So when I started getting nauseous in throwing up, you know, a couple times a day and my lasted like a whole day so my husband figured I’m pregnant. Because after all I was fine before
P: and you guys never thought oh, it’s the flu or Oh, it’s something I ate or
L: well, but you could do that the first day but if you keep on having morning sickness and chucking up at anything that you drink or eat.
P: And then once you think you’re pregnant, then do you have to go to the doctor’s office for a blood test or how does it work?
L: No, no, we really didn’t go right away. Dad at the time was practicing at Kaiser Permanente. So I was sort of the housewife because he was in the house. And first time I met my gynecologist obstetrician, he says, oh, a doctor’s wife like that. Like, oh, boy. They’re difficult patients. So this was my first first meeting. And I told him, I what my symptoms were. But also what happened is that I had a lot of chest pains and we didn’t know what that was for. And that’s the only reason I started going to the obstetrician. And he sort of blew it off. He says, oh, maybe you’re worried you’re anxious, whatever it is. He checked me out and I was fine. And, you know, I was pregnant. And that was it. But yet I was having these these chest pains and I guess later on we found it was more anxiety because of my past experience.
P: Okay,
L: from after the war.
P: So my mom was born in the middle of World War Two in Poland to Polish Jews. That’s what she’s referencing here. Yeah.
L: So he had nothing for me and he didn’t spend any time with me either. He just said, Well, you know, doctors, wives are always difficult. Nice. So, what happened is that we decided to go to another obstetrician. And this one, both my husband and I went to a seminar on hypnosis. And that’s when this obstetrician presented his use of hypnosis during pregnancy. And if he started early enough, you could by the time you’re ready to deliver, you could be so relax and use the auto hypnosis that you could deliver without any medication without spinal.
P; Yeah.
L: So this is this is his reasoning, and he sort of exuded such confidence and warmth. So my husband turns to me, he says, Should we try him? Okay, because I didn’t like the obstetrician at Kaiser. So we made an appointment with him. And I told him my story, and he wanted background. So I told him where I came from and the experiences that I had, and he was fine. He says, Well, he uses auto hypnosis would I be willing to try it? So I said, okay, and he had the kind the chain with a little ball that moves back and forth.
P: Oh, you’re kidding…And I was just asked about that. If you have like a watch on a string.
L: Right, right, with a crystal ball, and he would just go back and forth and you had to concentrate, and he would try to get you under, and I was a good candidate. So I went under. And under hypnosis, he asked me why do I have this tightness in my chest and why does it hurt so much? What am I afraid of? Am I afraid of the pregnancy? And I said to him, it’s my experience of being in the hospital in Germany, and I needed to have my belly button. Because I was born during the war and with my parents running from the woods and everything. They didn’t close my belly button correctly. So with an outie instead of an any, okay,
P: so my mother and her mother survived the war. They’re getting ready to go to America. They need all their medical affairs in order and for some reason, there’s some belly button issue that needs to be fixed before they can board the ship for the US.
L: I wouldn’t be accepted in the US unless it was it was operated on and it was pushed inside. So okay, so that’s what my mother had to do. So she, she took me to the hospital in Germany, but she never told me about it. And I was seven years old, and she said I would get treats. And when she took me to the hospital, she came in the nurses took care of me and she had to leave. Well, I found out that the this doctor’s coming within like a big needle. I was terrified because I didn’t know what was happening. And I ran away so they had to chase me at 7 years and finally they found me and they just held me down, put me on the operating table and there was this big big light up on top. You know, the the light for operations, ya know, within the surgical ward, and all I could remember is that big shiny light, and they’re giving me an injection. And that’s the only thing I remember after that I recovered, and I had the surgery. So I think the idea of going to the hospital for the first time because I didn’t need to go to the hospital ever since.
P; Right
L: So the idea of going to the hospital and seeing that big light and being on a surgical table to deliver. I get that pack petrified. So once he knew that, he could work with that. And through a couple of sessions with the auto hypnosis I recovered and I wasn’t afraid of that anymore. So he just released me from from this this anxiety that I had,
P: but what I love about this story is that it feels very, you know, 60s hippie out in California, which I totally dig. And and amazing that helped him like nice of him to take walk the extra step to say why are you anxious and how can I help you and
L: yes, well, that’s why he was so special. Yeah.
P: So while I’m talking to my mother, I’m enjoying the story of auto hypnosis like it’s from a bygone era. But when I went to look it up, it’s still around now more likely called hypnotherapy. It’s still used to treat anxiety and is used specifically to treat anxiety and pregnancy
L: by auto hypnosis if you were a good patient that you could go under and, and he could ask you questions you would respond. That’s what he did. So after several sessions, I felt more relaxed and I wasn’t fearful of that situation. And my pregnancy moved along very well.
P: That’s awesome. And so after that medical intervention, you don’t have ultrasound, right.
L: No.
P: So what what thing like that was so what’s the doctor’s visit? Like? What do they do when you get there to check you out during the pregnancy?
L: You know, they feel around the size, you know, with their hands and they feel around your belly. They listened to the heartbeats and you could hear them, they let you listen to it. And the only internal exam was right in the beginning and everything was fine. And from then on, it was not every single month till towards the end. And then it was like every two weeks by the eighth month.
P: So did you get to 40 weeks.
L: Oh, yeah, because I was over I was overdue by two
P: by two days?
L: I was over two weeks.
P: Oh my god. Two weeks is a long time at that point. So how did you know that you were going to give birth that day?
L: Oh, well, it was different since I was two weeks overdue. And you know, he figured out a date and when he was he was to be born but it didn’t exactly fit on that day. So he was going to go back to New York for a conference. And he really wanted to deliver me because he had practice with me with the auto hypnosis. Yeah. He didn’t want to turn me over to another obstetrician. So that’s when he induced me
P: so his induction in 1966. Does that involve like an IV with Pitocin? Or what does it look like?
L: Yes. Yes
P: Okay. Yeah, that sounds painful.
L: Well, that wasn’t so painful until the labor really started.
P: Did you get an epidural?
L: I didn’t get an epidural. Because he at the same time because I had a 17 hour labor. So he had given me all the pain medication during that time. And he was worried because the baby was so big. So basically all the pain, pain medication during this, this labor for so long. That when I went on the delivery table at the time that I came in, I had nothing and he gave me laughing gas
P: and didn’t work at all
L; with the laughing gas, but no, not really
P: well, because since then you had your other gym. With epidurals so you can compare
L: Yeah. Oh, yes. Once you got the epidural, it was a nice relief.
P: So he basically had a natural childbirth for your first one.
L: Yes, yes. Yeah. And he was nine and a half pounds. So I had a lot of tears that he had to prepare.
P: Yeah, that sounds hard. And then you stay in the hospital for like a week?
L: No, three, four days. Okay.
P: And in 1966 Where you were, was breastfeeding a thing or it wasn’t a thing?
L: No, it was if you wanted to you you can. But unfortunately, Josh was such a big baby. That I didn’t get enough milk.
P; Yeah.
L: And he was always crying because he was hungry.
P: Yeah.
L: And of course, if you were nursing, you couldn’t give him a bottle as a supplement. Yeah. So eventually, we found a pediatrician who had nine kids of his own so he knows. He knows about babies. So I went we went there. After three weeks. We just couldn’t figure out I was still not getting enough milk to feed, feed a big he was like a three month old baby and they’re in the nursery. Everybody said, What’s I think baby doing? He’s not a newborn. But the pediatrician said, look, he said you’re not getting enough milk. He’s hungry. He said, Give him a bottle of formula and see how much he drinks. And if he drinks, a full eight ounce bottle, then change them over for the sanity of you and the baby.
P; Yeah, yeah.
L: And he did he guzzled up that bottle of formula. And he was happy and he finally went to sleep. So I said, I’m done.
P: sold
L: So yes, exactly. Yeah, I’m one because I’m suffering. I was crying the same time the baby was crying. I didn’t know what to do. Yeah, so yeah, so that’s all
P: A couple of questions here: first, what were the first few months like with with a newborn? I’m assuming that you didn’t get much help.
L: Had no help. No help. Plus, my husband got, you know, he was recruited to the army because of Vietnam. So we had to leave he was a month and we left for Texas
P: Wow.
L: We left for Texas,. Yes. And we were really nervous. And we lived in this terrible terrible rooming house, because we didn’t realize that the Army gave you some kind of funds so that you could stay in a motel, which would have been air conditioned and not plus bucks. You know, real big bucks.
P: Yeah.
L: So it was a very unpleasant experience. Until later we found out that tickets daily pay out for hotel room. So we left that darn place so darn fast we moved into the Holiday Inn and it was like having that
P: that’s awesome. Yes, but the baby but Josh is asleep right is asleep or had all that go.
L: He was wonderful once once he was fed, all that he needed. He was wonderful. So he slept he just got up once or twice during the night. And that eventually changed. And he was so good. Once he was asleep. You could take him anywhere. We used to take him to the officer’s club. Hide him under the table, but the long table clocks were able to eat and nobody realized it was a baby in there. And when we left they sort of
P: I can’t believe you’re going out after the baby’s like two months old.
L: Yeah, yeah, we did. We did. So as long as the baby slept once I put him down at six. And you know, he slept to half the night. It was a big baby and he ate so he was fine.
P: It occurs to me as I will say this that my mother was 21 when she had her first child, so of course she’s going out when a baby is two months old. Were you surprised at how hard it was to take care of a baby or or no, that seemed appropriate.
L: You know what? I’m with the first one that had a baby in my group.
P: Yeah.
L: So I couldn’t ask anybody because nobody had any experience. Right? So mine within and my mother had no idea and no interest.
P: Yeah.
L: in babies So she said if I have to feed him Do not leave him. That was a clear answer. Right?
P: Yeah. Yeah.
L: So I enjoyed it because I really was very happy with him and he was just such a lovely baby. You know, I enjoyed every minute of it. And that’s why I was so broken up when he was crying. I was crying and my husband come home and he said why? Are you crying? I said because she’s crying. And then I don’t know what to do. And I couldn’t call anybody because nobody had children.
P: Yeah. yeah, yeah
L: I was the first one Married and I was the first one that had a baby. Yeah. So I had and I don’t didn’t have cousins or aunts and uncles or whatever task so I was really on my own.
P: Yeah, that sounds tricky. And was it was it cloth diapers or what was that like?
L: It was cloth diapers. It was and we had a service. Thank goodness we had a service. But in the army, they started having plastic diapers. So that’s what I use because I didn’t want cloth diapers because you know who am I going to call? We’re in a motel.
P: Yeah, So it’s like an old time milk man?
L: We’ll get a service. No, no to get a service.
P: No, what’s a service? What does that mean?
L: Oh, the diaper service wouldn’t bring you cloth.
P: You leave them a bag of dirty diapers and then they replace it with clean ones,
L: with clean ones and they count how many I returned and that’s how many I got.
P: Wow, that’s a good deal.
L: Yeah, yeah, that was a saving, saving grace. Because we didn’t have a machine in our apartment.
P: Oh, a washing machine.
L: Yeah, yeah, washing machine. So where was I going to go wash diapers with the baby? Yeah, and I didn’t have a car because my husband’s up the car. So I so I needed something and we didn’t have the paper the paper diapers.
P: Yeah.
L: At that time. So you know, was a whole mess and we just decided that was a good investment.
P: Yeah, that sounds like it so when you’re in the military, that you’re pregnant with number two.
L: Right.
P: And that also, I’m assuming was not planned?
L: Yes. We decided that let’s have a baby in the military so we don’t have to pay anything.
P: Okay. All right. That was planned. And that was the second one easier because you knew what to expect and
L: yeah, I had the same the same episodes with with the nausea. You know, that kind of thing. But, you know, luckily, everything went very smoothly and I had a very nice obstetrician in the army. Very nice.
P: And then so for that birth, this the second one come on time.
L: Ooh, it’s army time. They give you the date. babies delivered. But yes, I was full term I my due date was was February 17. And I came to see my obstetrician. He says okay, you’re ready. Oh, you come in on come break the water and you’re ready to go.
P: Wow.
L: Yeah,
P: now people get really excited if you if you break the water that’s not considered cool for the doctor to break the water unless like things have gone wrong.
L: You know what? I was clueless again. Who knew? Who knew? I certainly was hoping that I wouldn’t have such a long labor as I did with Josh.
P: Yeah.
L: And he felt this baby was big enough.
P: Yeah. So you had an appointment on your due date. And you went in. He broke your water and then did that start contractions? Are you needed to be induced?
L: No, no, I came in on the day before that was my came in the 16. And he says, You know what? You’re ready. Your your due date is tomorrow. Why don’t you go home, make arrangements for your other child and set it up? And come on in. We’ll break the water in and you’ll have the baby. So we did.
P: So you went in like it was a business meeting because you weren’t having contractions. Right, right. And he broke the water and then did your contractions start?
L: In a little while? Yeah, yeah, definitely pretty fast. Labor was was very fast.
P: did you get an epidural for this one.
L: Yes, he did the epidural. He didn’t call him in an anesthesiologist which surprised me but he did it and the only thing I have to say he didn’t stress about drinking water. So I had a lot of spinal headaches when I came home, miserable in the hospital and when I went home, so if I had known that I would have been guzzling water constantly.
P: Yeah.
L: But I didn’t know that in grandma was watching Drush. And she never never heard of it and didn’t know about it either.
P: Well, she didn’t have an epidural. There’s no
L: right but he would think that she’s a general physician. She would have had some idea of women having epidurals and you could have a headache, spinal headache, because you don’t take enough fluids. But she didn’t know anything about that. So
P: that’s totally interesting. And so did you remember how long the labor was with Teddy? Four and a half hours?
L: Oh, that’s quick.
P: Yeah, no, it’s Yeah, yeah.
L: So I like that.
P: No kidding. Yeah, that’s a great reduction. Did you feel the birth or no, because the epidural work,
L: the epidural work, so that was really slow. Everything worked out very well. I said geez, the army.
P: The mission is to get this baby out. Right So did you get to stay in the hospital man Are they kick you out? What do they do?
L: Yes. Oh, no, no, no, I got the royal treatment because my husband was an officer. So unfortunately, the baby got a real treatment. He had his own bassinet in his own room by himself because it was no other officers wives that had babies.
P: Oh they segregated the kids, that’s funny.
L: Yes, yes. Yes, they segregated the wives and segregated the babies.
P: That is strange So what was it like when you brought the second one home because now you have two and you still don’t have much help was my guess.
L: Right? Well, it was work. It was constant constant and you had an almost two year old. You know, when he was a little jealous of the baby. Yeah, he kept pushing when I and I didn’t breastfeed the second one at all. He was 8 12
P: Yeah.
L: But he was a big baby too. And you know what, I didn’t want to go through that and whether he’s getting enough milk or not and I had the two year old. I said, You know what? I’m okay. You know, so I saw with the first one that giving him formula. He turned out pretty well. Yeah, so I just went straight ahead to give him formula for the second one too.
P: Well also this is 1968. So I think the fashion of breastfeeding comes and go
L: oh, at that point. Yeah, at that point, and 66 It wasn’t really an 68 Absolutely not everybody sort of used formula.
P: Yeah. Well imagine postpartum is tricky because you’re exhausted. And have too little babies.
L: You know what, I was just happy to have two healthy kids. And that we were together because Vietnam was hanging over us every single day. Yeah. So in that sense, and and we had, what, six months left, before he got discharged, you know, dad a discharge. So I’m keeping my fingers crossed that we don’t get any letters.
P: Yeah. I would guess that’s a giant dose of perspective.
L: Yeah, right. Yeah. So all in all, you know, there were too many other stresses around. So I just concentrated on the babies.
P: Okay. And then from there, you move.
L: We went back to California. They had a position waiting for dad because he signed and then he got drafted. So they were holding that position for him.
P: So why did you leave California?
L: And that was other things. This was a general practice and they really didn’t explain that to Dad. And he had to do everything from pediatrics to wow, you know, geriatrics to, you know, everything in between. And he just didn’t like that kind of practice. And there were a lot of wealthy communities there that demanded you to come out for a headache.
P: Yeah.
L: So during the night he’d have to drive in the wilderness to find his house. And he says, oh, Doc, give me something. And he’s there stained by the fireplace with the with the drink. And he says, I have a headache. And I just came back from Japan or whatever. So dad does not like any part of it.
P: Yeah, I can see it was I can see what’s not appealing there.
L: And we decided to go to the east coast because he wanted to go back to New York. Plus, we thought we had family. For Kids. Yeah, and stuff. So yes, we headed to New York.
P: Okay, now I want you to walk very carefully through this next pregnancy which is me. So then planned again, am I planned.
L: No, that just happened in my surprise. What happened is I I had my time, it wasn’t a copper T.
P: It’s some kind of birth control.
L: Yeah. So I had, you know, different things inserted. What was on 68? Yeah, but I decided since we’re going east coast, and I was having issues with these new new thing that I would have it removed. Not thinking, yeah, you can get pregnant again.
P: Yeah. Yeah.
L: And that’s what happened on our way across.
P: Oh, wow.
L: Yeah. So I found out that I was very tired and sleepy and totally exhausted to New York. And I didn’t realize that’s one of the symptoms to have early pregnancy. So that’s, that’s when you came around.
P: wait So there’s still no home pregnancy test.
L: And no, we didn’t do anything like that. Okay, we didn’t do anything. So yeah. So we came to New York, and we thought of the heat and the humidity. It was during the summer. And of course, you know, I wasn’t used to that. And that’s why I was so exhausted and everything. But eventually, I got nauseous again. That was one little symbol of what’s what’s coming.
P: I was trying to send several signals at first, but no one was getting it.
L: Nobody was listening. I’m sorry.
P: That’s okay.
L: So how was that pregnancy that pregnancy? It was normal in that sense. It’s just that we were stuck in a motel room with, you know, with four of us. Yeah, two little ones and I was pregnant again, and I was sick. And dad was starting this new practice. So he was gone all day.
P: Yeah.
L: Sometimes in the evening, too. So I was just, you know, it was just hard there. It was very hard, and to be stuck in the motel with the heat and the air conditioning, not working and no car you know, so yeah. So that that was a difficult kind of thing, but not because of the pregnancy.
P: Okay. And then okay, and then for my birthday, do you? How did that happen? How did you know? My birthday was the day
L: well, that really annoyed me because I my obstetrician who I loved, and I think he was so great, but he wasn’t available. He had emergency, you know, delivery or something. So I saw his partner. And he he said, oh your Do you know and I was you know, maybe closing in on my ninth month. And he says, Why don’t you come on in and because you tend to have big babies and we don’t want to worry about that. Make it easier. Just come on in. And you know, we’ll give you some and we’ll induce labor. So I said no, I don’t want to do that. I said, Maybe this time I will wait till the baby is telling me yes, I’m ready.
P: Yes. Now you’ve got wise. Yes.
L: Yes. Yes. You know, you learn from each one. Yeah, but the thing is in the army, I was really due. Yeah. And everything was was just just the right timing. But what happened is that Dad told his mother, that this is what the doctor said. And we had to figure out if she would come and help us take care of the two kids at home. And that’s when I could go in the hospital. And at the time to was February, and he wanted me to come in on the 17th. I said, No. I said I’m not having two kids. Born on the same day.
P: Yeah.
L: it’s Not necessary. I’m not sure we due. feel any. I felt Braxton Hicks kind of things, but not labor.
P: Your kids appreciate that. Way to stand your ground.
L: Yeah. So then, he said, Well, your taking chances he tried to scare me. I didn’t. didn’t appreciate that. So I said thank you. I’ll think about it. And I just wanted to get out of his office because I said no to I called my obstetrician. And we were at that point on first name basis, because of the doctor community kind of thing. Yeah, he was just the warm person. And he didn’t want me to call him Dr. Stall. So he’s just call me. So I called him up. And I said, your partner, which I named, he wanted me to come in that you would do pit and just induce labor. But I didn’t want to and I said why can’t I wait and have the baby when when this you know, I didn’t know what your boy or girl there’s no way of testing that. I said I’ll wait till till I’m in labor. So he says okay, okay. But then what happened? I got pressured into the following week, because grandma said the only time she could come with the following week to take care and help me out.
P: So Grandma decided my birthday.
L: Yep. Yeah,
P: was she still a practicing doctor at that point.
So, to give a little background here, my grandmother is also a doctor, now living in NYC, and my parents have moved from the west coast to the NY suburbs to be near her. My grandmother and my father were also war refugees who came to the US in 1950…so although she’s a doctor, she had to start her life over again in the US, and had now been in NY for about twenty years…as you can hear for a variety of reasons she and my mother always have kind of a contentious relationship
L: Yeah, I wasn’t happy about that. But dad didn’t want to be left. Taking care of kids. Yeah. So he sort of pressured me to go in the follow me. Yeah. And, you know, with with all the arrangements and the baby with was fine, and you were in position, so nobody saw any problem with that. And Dr. Stall said, Look, we’ll give you pit, if it doesn’t work. You could go home and your weight of it works, then you’ll have your baby.
P: How far from the due date?
L: Pretty close to close? But I think babies gain most of their weight the last two weeks, yes, three weeks.
P: According to the american…
L: And the other doctor told me that you were smaller than than the other two users. Oh, you had only bruisers. We don’t want that. You know, that kind of, you know, attitude. So he said it’ll be easier on you and get on everybody. And he was he was always concerned about you know, problems with the umbilical cord and all that kind of thing. He was trying to scare me into certain things.
P: Yeah.
L: You know, so when I said that’s the only time she could come. What am I going to do? Yeah, I didn’t know anybody here either at a new place. Yeah. So I couldn’t get somebody else to come in and help me and I wouldn’t trust a new sitter to come and take care of the two kids. That’s how we did it. I went in. They gave me pit and, you know, I had you
P: and how was that delivery?
L: Fine, and I had the epidural, and you came out and there is no worry about the umbilical cord or whatever. But you were seven pounds six pounds. Okay. Yeah. So you were much smaller than my other two.
P: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
L: So, so by the fourth one, I lay down the law I said I’m not coming in You know what, this baby is going to tell me when it’s coming in and I’m not coming in at all. So until it until it’s it’s time, but this you know, the fourth one of course I had the amniocentesis
P: wait so let’s go go slowly. Then the fourth one because there’s a big gap between me and the next one.
L: Yes, you came out. Everything was fine. You’re beautiful. You’re healthy and and it was like three and a half hours. An hour off.
P: You’re shaving off the hours that well done.
L: Yes. Three days in the hospital that out? Yeah, that’s not too bad. Yeah, yeah. Well, I was fine. If everything is fine. You know, and how we’re
P: we’re still doing formula but now we’re doing plastic diapers is my guess.
L: Yes. Okay. Yes.
P: Okay. Yeah. And then there’s an eight year gap between me and the next one. Right. So that one is a surprise.
L: Yeah,
P: were you 35 for that one?
L: I turned 35. in December. She was born in January.
P: Yeah, so you just turned 35 But nowadays, they call the geriatric pregnancy
L: I know, but yet a lot of people have them this late.
P: No, I’m not saying they’re right. I’m just saying what was the reaction? Were you older at the time to be having another baby?
L: You know what, after the three normal births and I never had any problems or issues my obstetrician wasn’t worried.
P: Let’s talk for a second about how different it was between the first and the fourth. Okay, for the first year 21 of your child and for your 35 so
L: 3434 Because that’s my whole pregnancy. was when I was 34.
P: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, that’s a good point. So 34 for the second one. How much has the doctor’s office changed? And do you get a home kit for this one to know that you’re pregnant?
L: Well, I went in and they did the test. Okay. I didn’t get home. They didn’t take it at home. And he he examines you so he knows right away that you’re pregnant,
P: but did you go because you felt nauseous? Or what was your
L: I had the same thing and I just, you know, I said, I’m pregnant. You know, I knew that after we were out in the motel once we got a rental and moved into the house I was looking for an obstetrician. And it was funny because we we met the obstetrician at one of the doctors parties, and he bumped into me and he spilled a drink on my dress. I got so upset because I sewed it. I made the dress and it was a pregnancy. Yeah, very elegant dress. And he says, Oh, he says I’m so sorry. He says, please send it to cleaners. I will pay for it. Don’t worry about it. And he introduced himself and they said, I see you’re pregnant. He says who you’re going to
I say don’t have an obstetrician. A pretty good one. It was very, very sweet and very, ebbullient genuine
P: I hope you looked around the party to see if he wasn’t spilling drinks on everyone and that wasn’t
L: no and I asked around and they knew there were three of them. The other guy was his brother in law. And another guy but he was cold. I didn’t care for him. He was a good technician. Like cold.
P: Yeah,
L: that’s how I met sigh and then I you know like you fall in love with your obstetrician. He was one of those guys that so, so nice. You know so caring.
P: In this taped conversation i didn’t press to know more about the idea that someone would “fall in love with their obstetrician”, but I called her back to ask about that, and it sounds like this doctor was very solicitious when it came to my mother’s care. If she brought some fear up in her appointment, he’d call her a few days later to check on her. I’m guessing that this kind of special treatment is a reflection of the fact that she is a doctor’s wife, and when she says “fall in love” I think she means, you form a real emotional attachment to someone taking such good care of you during this vulnerable period
L: When I got pregnant the fourth time grandma just seated Him with all these What if something is wrong? What if you know, baby has such and such whatever so dad said you know we are taking a big chance we always throw the dice when we have kids.
P: Yeah.
L: You don’t know there’s no test. There’s nothing and I said you know what? Whatever happens, I will take care of it. You don’t have to do anything. You haven’t done any You haven’t changed a diaper you have the baby.
P: Good news. More of the same
L: what’s the Difference. What’s the difference? I said this is what what I’ll be doing again. I would love to have another child.
P: I’m guessing he because he was worried about the baby big do an amnio?
L: Well, that’s why I went back to Sy and I said look, Hank is up to the very upset about it. So is there anything I could have as a test to see if everything is okay with the baby. So at that time, that procedure was just coming out and insert that big long needle and draw the fluid out. And you know his story. He did it the first time with all the students around and dad was there front and center to watch him and he drew blood And everybody gasped and he took the needle out real fast dad was so white they walked him out.
P: his concern is that if you draw blood, it’s an increased chance of aborting the fetus
L: aborting Yeah. So he begged me when he could do it again. And carefully because he’s working with the monitor.
P: Yeah.
L: To see wherever it is. And he just to insert the needle again. And he said he promised it would be quick turnaround to the students and he said I don’t want to sound or else out of here. You know, yeah, I didn’t want anybody saying anything. So since I was already there, I said just do it because it would ease so much other things.
P: Yeah,
L: at home. So he did it and it worked really well smoothly. But he told Dad, to drive as fast as he can. put me to bed, put my feet up and not to move for a whole day.
P: Okay.
L: 24 hours. So once I pass that it became sort of safer, that I’m not aborting. Okay, but I would have been would have been very upset.
P: How far along were you?
L: I think it was three and a half or four months at that point and that was so hard for now. was later on? Yeah. It was wait. It wasn’t like six weeks?
P: Yeah, yeah, that’s like 16 weeks. And at this point you’re probably showing earlier because you already have three kids.
L: Right, right. Right. So and we had a wait for a month.
P: Or oh my god that’s crazy
L: I was ready to just just scream by the time it came. And at the same time dad got the Tay Sachs We never did the Tay Sachs and we should have done it for the other two because we are both European jews
P: Yeah, you mean he just got the test for it while you’re waiting for the amnio .
L: Yeah, yeah. And they said you want to do what do what tests? No, I’m having big tests. Like,
P: was he negative?
L: Yeah, if he’s negative, I’m okay.
P: So Tay Sachs is a terrible disease that causes all kinds of problems for babies who usually die by the age of five. Anyone can be a carrier for this genetic disease, but it’s much more common in Jews of European discent…about 1 in 27 people in this category are carriers, carriers don’t have symptoms, and to pass the disease on, both parents have to be carriers. if both parents have the genes, the baby has a one in four chance of having the disease–
L: yeah, yeah. So that’s that we did that that time.
P: When you get the annual results, is it a letter in the mail?
L: Oh, with the whole packet. Sy got the report, too. But he called me in because he didn’t want to say it on the phone. I was so nervous and he gave me a kiss on the cheek. He says everything is fine.
P: Oh, good. Okay, good.
L: Yeah, yeah. So until until I got the whole report. And they had the X chromosomes, you know everything. I have the whole report. I want to see that. That’s cool. And of course told the sex of the child but I never told anybody. So we made a pack. Nobody knows.
P: You and dad knew.
L: Of course it’s on the test. So that’s a secret you definitely kept from us.
P: I remember saying if it’s a boy, I’m gonna send it back.
L: I was like, sister, I remember being pan I was so excited. I was so excited that you’re going to have a sister never told her friend nothing. I was very excited. And after four months, I finally was able to enjoy the pregnancy.
P: Yeah, it sounds like you enjoyed all of them to some degree.
L: Well, the first first three months were Yeah. And I’d had every, every one of them exactly the same. Nope, nothing changed about one and four. So once after that, it was it was very, very nice.
P: But now it seems like you’re wading into technology in that you have an end of this time you have a definitive blood test to find out that you are pregnant, and did not have ultrasound or you did no,
L: we still didn’t have ultrasound, we still didn’t have
P: so what’s the scan that the OB uses to do the amnio?
L: He’s connected to a screen and everything at that point. But in the doctor’s office, we don’t have that
P: so that they have ultrasound there just for this test.
L: Yes. Just to see where he’s putting the needle and
P: it’s not regularly available so people aren’t getting this.
L: No, no, this is all new. This was all new. That’s why all the students were there. Learning. We were right on the foreground with this test.
P: That’s amazing. And then I remember I remember going to the hospital so you must have started started having contractions
L: on the 16th of January.
P: Yeah,
L: he said on the 16th of January. I woke up with
P: Wow.
L: Go figure
P: nowadays, if you have contractions they say don’t come to the hospital until two minutes apart. Where they tell you
L: Yeah, well the thing is, I went to the office first. Perfect. And he says yes, you’re in labor. But he said you can’t go to the hospital yet. But you have to, you know, wait till till they’re closer. But there was a blizzard coming,
P: I remember that.
L: When I went further along, went to the hospital because his partner was there. So he said to you and he said you better hurry up because ready
P: Wow.
L: So Sy had to zip out and go to the delivery and he broke the water. Okay, just was the final thing and boy that was it. Was a very hard labor. It really came on very, very strong, much stronger than then with you. Or Teddy.
P: How long were you labor for?
L: three hours
P: Oh, okay, so still is almost the same length as mine. Yeah, and no Pitocin I’m assuming
L: no, no. Pitocin and the thing is, by the time he gave me the epidural on the delivery table, yeah, not in the unit. You know when you check in, but um, delivery table, and then she was born and I don’t think the epidural even took effect.
P: Yeah, yeah, it’s too late. Yeah,
L: I felt everything. But everything was was nice. And so I was so happy because the umbilical cord was so short. Which was good because I worry about wrapped up in everything. And he kissed his babies when they were delivered. If it always gets the babies, and he had he had students there. this time? Not the last time but it was great. What’s good.
P: So, so two questions. One is dad is never in the delivery room.
L: No, he didn’t want to go in. He went in with Dr. Cheek with Josh. Okay. And I was in such pain with the contractions and he gave me the laughing gas because the epidural had worn off hours before and when he gave me laughing guess, Dr. Cheek said. You’re not helping at all leave. And he kicked him out
P: It wasn’t common to have the husband in the delivery room or was not. No, it
L: it wasn’t common. The fathers so we sat outside but since he was a doctor, they let him in. Yeah, yeah. But each time after that when they said you want to come in. That’s it? No. Wait outside.
P: Yeah, that’s helpful. Okay. Yeah. And then no female gynecologist were to be seen
L: at that point. No. No, all of them were men. Yeah. All of them were men.
P: so I was curious about this and looked it up: according to the LA times, in the 1970s roughly 7% of gynecologists were women…now its 59%, so what my mom was saying is true, pretty much all of them were men
P: so you seem like you have changed a lot over the course of those four births in that you were such a like deer in the headlights for the first one.
L: oh definitely, are you kidding
P: Right and you just didn’t know how any of it was gonna go right. You know how what pregnancy would be like and what were 50 like and
L: and they didn’t have those classes to come into the hospital. expecting parents to come in and be take you on a tour. This is where the delivery this is whatever. And you certainly didn’t have any lamaze classes. Let’s put it that way. Yeah,
P: yeah. By the time the last one was born, there were like breathing glasses and stuff, right?
L: Yeah, yes. Yeah.
P: You didn’t want to go
L: you know, was my fourth one. You know, I knew what to expect.
P: Yeah. Yeah.
L: And I felt very comfortable in my obstetrician.
P: Yeah, God, you’ve had quite a ride.
L: Yeah, yeah. I got stronger and more confident of telling them what I want. Like, like the last one.
P: It more assertive yah, yah,
Thanks again to my mother for sharing her story and for hanging out with me on Thanksgiving. Women of her generation seem very strong to me, to deal with the massive uncertainty of this process with much less than future generations would enjoy. One thing we didn’t talk much about was the postpartum period, and when I called my mom back to see if I’d missed anything, she said, that there were no lactation specialists…the nurse helped you with breastfeeding in the hospital and then if everything seemed okay, you were sent on your way and the doctor didn’t check you out again until six weeks later…although so much has changed around pregnancy and birth, not enough has changed around postpartum care, since it looks very similar today to what it looked like 50 years ago…that’s a frontier to work on for sure.
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