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Episode 97SN: Her Birth & Postpartum inspired her to find a better way to Postpartum: Kaitlin’s Story, Part I

We–ALL of US (in the US)–are doing Postpartum wrong. Once we experience it with our first born, we learn this, and all make plans to do something different the second time, if there is a second time. Today’s guest wants to change Postpartum for all of us.

In today’s episode, my guest shares the birth and postpartum experience that propelled her out of her work as a special ed teacher in New York City and into the field of birth workers. Unfortunately, the overwhelming two that she experienced and talks about is likely to sound very familiar. I had my kids 10 years before she did and she could have been describing my postpartum in lots of ways. But what’s new is what she did with that experience, and what she’s doing for birthing people now.

Check out Kaitlin’s company, BeHerVillage

Audio Transcript

Kaitlin McGreyes  0:02  

I poured all my time and energy into the nursery, all the things for the baby. And I neglected to mine with any kind of support for myself. And I blamed myself for it. It didn’t, I thought, wow, I really failed here. You know, I didn’t I didn’t know how hard this was gonna be I obviously did something wrong. And then I became a doula soon after my second birth, and I started seeing that almost all of them had that experience that universal moment of being postpartum, whether it’s three hours postpartum, or it’s a day postpartum or it’s a week postpartum, they all find themselves alone.

Paulette  0:38  

Welcome towards stories from the womb. This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant, being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition. You find on all kinds of media to more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and release that new person from your body into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and a mother of two girls. And boy that I struggle with this transition.

In today’s episode, my guest shares the birth and postpartum experience that propelled her out of her work as a special ed teacher in New York City and into the field of birth workers. Unfortunately, the overwhelming two that she experienced and talks about is likely to sound very familiar. I had my kids 10 years before she did and she could have been describing my postpartum in lots of ways. But what’s new is what she did with that experience, and what she’s doing for birthing people. Now. This is a really inspiring story. So let’s get to it. 

Today. We have something unusual, I almost never promote a business because I don’t want to sell anything but but today is different because I heard about this miraculous woman on podcast who wants us all to reimagine one of the fundamental, almost rites of passage for a pregnant woman in America. The baby shower. Basically, I heard about her company for women in postpartum. I thought this is genius. And we should all be doing this. And so I’m so excited to introduce Kaitlin McGreyes. I say your name right. Humans got

 

Kaitlin  2:21  

it so close. It’s McGreyes. Okay. My husband and I combined her last name. So it’s actually graph and Reyes but together.

 

Paulette  2:29  

I love it. Okay. So Caitlin, McGreyes. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I’m so excited to hear your personal story and the story of the company. I’m excited to hear it all. So will you tell us where you’re from?

 

Kaitlin  2:42  

And a little bit about yourself? Absolutely. Thank you so much, Paulette. That’s awesome. I am Kaitlin McGreyes. I have three children, seven, eight and 10. I’m from Long Island, New York. And I am a doula turned founder of beer village because essentially I was a special ed teacher. I went through the motherhood experience, the very typical American motherhood experience. And I felt like many of us, underwhelmed to traumatize spectrum depends on the day. And I realized that that was sort of like a universal experience. To enter motherhood, alone, unsupported. And I had this one moment where I sat in my nursery three days postpartum. And I was trying to figure out how to breastfeed trying to figure out which way was up trying to figure out how to take care of this post C section body. My husband was already back at work. Oh my god. I know he didn’t get any time off for that one. So I gave birth Saturday morning at 520. And he was back at work while I’m still in the hospital. And he worked for New York City. It just they didn’t have pay leave then we couldn’t afford unpaid leave. It was a whole thing. So I had a very bumpy entry into motherhood. And I just remember sort of looking around at my apartment and seeing all the beautiful gifts, my perfect nursery, it’s where I it’s where I poured all my time and energy into nursery all the things for the baby. And I neglected to line up any kind of support for myself, and I blamed myself for it. It didn’t I thought wow, I really failed here. You know, I didn’t I didn’t know how hard this was gonna be. I obviously did something wrong. And then I became a doula soon after my second birth, and I started supporting hundreds of women over the course of my Doula career, and I started seeing that almost all of them had that experience that universal moment of being postpartum whether it’s three hours postpartum, or it’s a day postpartum or it’s a week postpartum, they all find themselves alone, and without the care that they need, while they’re trying to care for their babies. And all of us are surrounded by stuff. We have the best strollers and the best baby bottles and bouncers and gadgets and devices and our communities. Our loved one spent 1000s of dollars on us at our baby shower to the tune of $12 billion a year on being crazy. And I thought, man, there’s got to be a better way. To do this. This just feel like we’re not doing this right we’ve got this we’ve have moms totally overloaded with stuff for their kids for their babies, and no support totally left alone. And then you have you know, all all this money getting spent on stuff when when there could be a way to spend that on supporting them and what what is the way that we solve this problem? How do we get these funds that are so generously being spent to be spent on hearing for the actual mother? I started thinking about how do we actually go buy a baby shower gift? You know, like how does that happen? We got a baby shower invite usually have some registry information you go you click a few things and and it’s done. It’s sort of just like a task that you do. And what if we shifted the baby shower registry? What if we created a place where instead of all the stuff for babies we could shower the mother with support? What if we could buy her a doula What if we could get her postpartum here but if we get our pelvic floor therapy or lactation visits or mom you need groups or you know meals and laundry and just the whole the things to sort of like envelop this new family in the care they need, which is so impactful. So I pray to be her village.

 

Paulette  6:20  

I was so excited to get into that. I want to hear your story first. And then we’re gonna save time at the end to walk people through what it looks like. What you’re doing now what you’ve learned from doing it, however long you’ve been doing it because it’s such a good idea and when I read that billions of dollars are spent on baby stuff. I thought a that’s crazy and B I totally understand it. Right. It’s that is what we’re geared toward in a way that completely overlooks the mother who’s entirely critical of the baby, right, or health or Well, being her mental state is so fundamentally important. And we’re like, Ah, here’s a rocker, you know, the mean, and the rocker is beautiful, but when you’re sitting alone, crying while you’re breastfeeding, you know, I’m not sure anything about the rocker.

 

Kaitlin  7:10  

That’s exactly I mean that that is my story. My story is that.

 

Paulette  7:14  

So let’s start off slow here. So do you have siblings in your family? Did you come from a big family?

 

Unknown Speaker  7:19  

I have one older brother.

 

Paulette  7:22  

So when you were younger, did you think I’m going to have a family or did that affect your idea about family?

 

Kaitlin  7:28  

I think I always knew I wanted children. It’s kind of funny. This is like a funny thing to say, Well, I I knew I wanted children and never necessarily wanted to be married. And maybe when I was a 90s kid with divorced parents, so the idea of being stuck in an unhappy marriage was my idea of hell, but I knew I wanted to help kids. I was always very maternal. I was always playing house. I always was loved to take care of my little cousins when they were babies. But I didn’t necessarily imagine that happening with a partner. I just knew I kind of assumed I would live on my own and then do IVF or something. And then I was a special ed teacher in New York City. And the Para, which is like a teacher’s assistant, in the classroom next door. He was really really cute. He was really, really cute. And I thought to myself, he’s so cute, and honestly, he was more than cute. He was hot. But I thought man, he can’t be nice. He’s probably kind of you know, his personality probably is terrible because he’s so good looking. And then I went up and I talked to him. And he told me that when he’s not working with the special needs kids in our school that he’s he works at a puppy daycare. Oh man. He’s everything you know. So I feel very, very, very hard for him. And I ended up marrying him and I just remember this overwhelming feeling of wow, I just want to make humans with you. It was the most was maybe the first step in the primal nature. of motherhood, you know, because on paper, having kids didn’t really make sense. It’s still quite, it doesn’t make that much sense to have kids on paper. It’s expensive, takes a lot of your energy the extra time it shifts your whole life. But there’s this space in my body. You know, this like gut space that just has this urge to have children and to have children with him. So So yeah, so that’s what we do. I’m very quickly went from a single living on my own in the city, going out all the time to living with my partner married and then got pregnant two months after we got married. Wow. So yeah, and then had three kids in less than four years. So when I do things, Paulette, I do them big.

 

Paulette  9:41  

For the sake of be her village, I’m excited to hear that. I’m glad. So it sounds like it was easy to get pregnant.

 

Kaitlin  9:48  

It was scarily easy for you know, it’s like it can go either way. Right. It can be like wow, this is really hard and heart wrenching. But it can also be like, Wow, we just think about getting pregnant. And we all three times it was incredibly, incredibly easy.

 

Paulette  10:01  

Yeah. Okay, so for the first one, did you walk into pregnancy with an idea of what it would be like?

 

Kaitlin  10:08  

No, I was the first person in my social circle. I was only 27 which in New York City is very young to start having kids. I feel like the people I know don’t start think about until they’re like 33 And they’re like, start considering it. So at 27 I was the first person I knew and was already in my circle to have a baby so I had almost no expectation and I don’t know I have this expectation that everything would be really easy. I also I also have this invincibility this like 27 year old invincibility like nothing can hurt me because I you know, tell I know how to tell people to go at themselves. You to like and that will save me which in many situations. Like it wasn’t enough. I remember watching the business of being born. And before I had my first baby and thinking, Oh, I can handle that. You know, I was horrified at what I saw. And I thought I can handle that.

 

Paulette  11:06  

Was it was it? Was it a vaginal deliveries they showed?

 

Kaitlin  11:10  

Well, what they showed on us as being born is a plant homebirth different C section because the baby was breech so she was like eight centimeters and they had to transfer pretty quickly but they they walk you through the cascade of interventions, you know, mostly in the epidural, the stall, the C section, that sort of thing. And, and I just sort of felt immune, I felt like I could handle all of that. So

 

Paulette  11:34  

how do we know today’s the day or you know, the baby’s gonna be born?

 

Kaitlin  11:38  

Because the midwife told me it’s time to go to the hospital and get the baby out.

 

Paulette  11:43  

So you do wake up with contractions and you know their contractions

 

Kaitlin  11:47  

know the midwives. Were working at a birth center in New York. There was only one so I won’t name it but you guys can figure it out. They were working at a birth center and sort of saying, Hey, this is midwifery care. But the rules at the time in New York State did not allow midwives to own birth center. So they were actually puppets for an OB run and owned facility. So I went for 41 weeks screaming Wow. And the midwife just said, Okay, it’s time there wasn’t a discussion. It wasn’t true midwifery care. And I’m always sort of careful to say that it was not true midwifery care. They were just a puppet for OB care. And it was a little bit of a bait and switch. And it’s it’s unfortunate because I tried, you know, like I tried to line up and out of hospital birth they tried lining up a midwifery led team, but it’s it made to him. I didn’t like, deep enough, but I think part of that experience was that I was a little idealistic. I was a little bit like my just gonna be my you know like I’m part of I think my deep skepticism the unfolding this as I’m saying it but like, what am I deep skepticism about the existing systems and and how they serve us is due to this like I did all the right things. I checked all the boxes, you know, I planted out of hospital birth I got a midwifery team. I took the childbirth class, I prepared as best as I could. And still, the system just took me in and systematically shut me down, took away choices took away my voice.

 

Paulette  13:25  

So before we get to the hospital, how did you come to the conclusion that you wanted an out of hospital birth? What What made you make that choice?

 

Kaitlin  13:33  

That’s a great question. I don’t really know my mom had a vaginal delivery with me and my brother, and my brother and I and my 10 year old would be correcting me and my grandma was my brother and I, I think I was just it was the beginning. Of when I start considering another human being like my son. I think it was just the beginning of this, like, what could be the best for him and what I was reading was the best is less intervention, the you know, the business would be important. It’s like how do we avoid this cycle? How do we avoid I was just sort of curious that I guess I got led down that path of looking for an alternative and I’m not somebody that has ever wanted to walk the mainstream path. Like part of my personality, so I think it makes perfect sense that I was that I was exploring my options. I’m also somebody that is very intellectual. I like to know as much information as I can it helps reduce my anxiety. So I think just in doing the, the research and looking and going and meeting people and finding out what is the best way to have this baby. That was what led me down this path and I got so close, like some key things that were sort of outside of my control. For you know, that’s that’s where everything sort of went sideways.

 

Paulette  14:52  

So you went to the midwives just for a regular checkup. Was that your intention?

 

Kaitlin  14:56  

I went to the sonogram place for a 41 week sonogram to check on, I guess, you know, just the like normal, non stress test and water levels and whatnot. And it was the hottest day of July, you know, and I was my water was a little low. And I didn’t know I didn’t have a doula. It’s a big part of it. I didn’t have a doula. I thought that a doula would make the experience less intimate. I thought a doula was unnecessary because I thought my midwives had my back. I didn’t understand like the power dynamic that the midwives were working for OBS and I didn’t understand that even if they aren’t working for OBS that they’re trying to exist and give care in a system where they are liable in a system where they need to be covered by insurance in a system where they have to maintain hospital privileges. I had no idea about the complexities of that. So I felt that my midwife would protect me rather than be one of the people that sort of a mouthpiece for the larger system. And so, so I was told my water was low. And I remember standing on the street in Brooklyn, and she called me and said, It’s time to get the baby out. Go to the hospital. Not a question, not an informative conversation just it has been deemed it has been decided. And I remember bursting into tears to figure out why the tears you know, in the moment it’s almost like my body knew how wrong this all felt, but I couldn’t you know, when you’re in that sort of panic stress, you can’t pinpoint it. Years later, and many, many hours of contemplation, but I think I just went into immediate trust mode and I don’t know that I could have figured out well, yeah, because maybe, maybe I wanted to have a voice in my care. Maybe I wanted to be a decision maker instead of a passive participant maybe being told what was going to happen. Didn’t feel good for me and maybe I needed trauma informed care you know, it’s such a subtle thing, but it’s a huge thing. If she had said, Hey, this is what’s going on. And these are our options. Yeah, take an hour, go to lunch, go connect, go get in a room with your husband. I was by myself. Go get in a room with your husband haven’t take you out to lunch and discuss the options you know, just something as simple as that there was nothing urgent about me. You know, my water was a little low. Okay, baby was fine. So something like that would have just completely shifted the experience and and I think that’s where when I eventually become a doula and do all of this work those moments stick with me. It’s not it’s not about how the baby comes out. It really isn’t. It’s not about what medical things happen. It’s about having the space and room to adjust. It’s about having people speak to you respectfully. It’s about having a team that maintains your power your autonomy, your centering in the entire experience. It’s just that birth from that phone call on I was I was just an annoyance to everybody. I was just the thing they had to deal with. And that’s how I felt I felt disempowered and voiceless and powerless. And it I mean, it continues to grow. At first that was the best part of the birth leader was that

 

Paulette  18:05  

this is this is something I hear often from women and the fundamental question is Were things done for you or to you? Oh, they were done to me. Right because you had no choice but that’s that seems to be what it turns on. You know how much control you have. So you’re crying in the street. What happens next you call your husband.

 

Kaitlin  18:25  

I call my husband and I call my mom and they meet me at the hospital or my mom like picks up my husband and I don’t remember exactly we all meet at the hospital. And, and the midwife needs to be in triage. And so the thing to know about this situation, too, is that this birthing center was always in flux. I don’t know the workings behind the scene, but I know as a patient and then as a doula when I would have patients there. They they’re just sort of constantly in flux. So at the time, they had privileges at mammography. So I went to my mother’s hospital in Brooklyn, which was incredibly far away from my home and my parents home. We were trying to have birth center birth and that this was plan B. But the other thing that had happened is that there was this like shifting of all the midwives on the staff, and only one or two of them had like five or six had privileges at the hospital. The sense I got from the midwife who’s now a home birth midwife in Brooklyn, was that she was exhausted. And didn’t want to be there. And I got the overwhelming sense she wasn’t happy in the position she was in which is fine but it definitely bled into my care you know, she dropped me off in triage. I got an IV in my hand. I remember hating the IV so much. And then now get this pull that you’re gonna die. I was set up for a Cytotec induction in the C section. recovery room. Yep. So I was lying there, eating a sandwich. Not allowed to get up. I didn’t know you know, this is like this is like another me not allowed to get up not allowed to move. Getting double doses of side attack because the first couple didn’t work. Surrounded by semi conscious moaning women. Oh my God, who had just come back from a C section or waking up from anesthesia. Whatever it was like it’s surgical recovery room on the OB floor. And the midwife who I’m sure is overworked. His that she’s the only one you know, that has hospital privileges. It just, she was in her own place. She’s like, okay, by all means Call me if you feel like you need an epidural. That’s not midwifery care. By the way. For anyone who’s listening. That’s not midwifery care I was getting. I was getting OB care through the mouth of a midwife. Call me feeling an epidural. Call me if you feel like you need an epidural. It’s actually what she said. Cool.

 

Paulette  20:56  

Thanks. So I got it from here. Thanks. Anyway.

 

Kaitlin  21:00  

Thank you so much, you You’re the worst. So I Yeah, so I the the Cytotec kicked in around 11pm

 

Paulette  21:08  

Is that Pitocin so it was it was like Is it attack is a cervical ripening

 

Kaitlin  21:13  

or it’s an off label use. So it there’s a lot of controversy oversight attack. It has its uses. I’m not this is not an anti Cytotec podcast. It’s just that was what I had, but incredibly effective. It’s also it’s the abortion drug, it causes intense uterine contraction. Oh, so it’s an off label use there’s something like it’s for ulcers. It’s an ulcer medication that the OB is used to induce and also to control bleeding and also to I believe it’s the abortion. I don’t know though.

 

Paulette  21:45  

Just a quick note, here, Caitlyn is right. According to medical websites, Cytotec aka visa protocol, not sure if I’m pronouncing that correctly, is also a drug that’s used off label by OBS for various things including inducing abortion. It’s one of the two medications used in the abortion pill. There are links in the show notes if you’re interested in details.

 

Kaitlin  22:07  

So I get that it’s incredibly effective. I started having essentially transition level contractions every three minutes deep, deep, deep contractions, and it is almost unbearable because the nurse Wendy is now in this surgical recovery room. She’s taking care of 20 women and me who’s laboring and she won’t let me quote unquote, let me because I didn’t know I didn’t. She wasn’t allowed to not let me write. Wouldn’t let me get up she kept saying well, I have superior commanders. She would make me live not even just lay but lay flat on my back. I had those the things that go on your legs. Like clap preventative thing. I had blood pressure cuff. I had the flippy thing on your hand, but I was essentially strapped down. Even though technically not shackles really felt like it. And I remember just she was forcing me to lay the waves were so intense and so fast. And I remember saying I need an epidural I started vomiting. I started shaking uncontrollably, which is all now like now I know it’s all part of like I was dilating I was now I know I’ve actually been incredibly fast labor my body. So the baby when it’s ready, so good to know, but my body took to the induction, I think a lot faster than anybody expected it to. And I remember asking her if I can get out to the bathroom and she said to me, Well, no, you really look like you’re in charge. I can’t let you get up and she made me use a bedpan How humiliating how dehumanizing. I was conscious. I was not an epidural. There was no reason I should not have been allowed to get up out of that bed. I shouldn’t walk to school. There’s a lot of shoulds in the story, but it’s part of why I’m so passionate about everybody getting to let says this is the foundation of my work right now. It is this. I was like a trapped animal and not in a good way. I was like an animal, my spiritual unmedicated me back to you, but like a wonderful, primal, beautiful goddess animal. This was like being in a cage and I remember I was I was throwing up I was shaking. She was trapping me and honestly, I don’t know how much time I gave birth to 5:20am Voc section. This started at 11 I don’t think that much time has really time doesn’t exist in labor. You know, it felt like 10 years to me. And I remember my husband and I had prepared with childbirth classes and it’s his role right to kind of support me and not wanting to throw. My mother and him weren’t allowed to touch me unless they had cold rags because I was so hot and I couldn’t take the touch. They were like deer in headlights. If there’s ever a reason to have a doula it was just the look of their faces. The eyes not knowing what to do with me. And I remember saying out loud, I want an epidural. And he looked at me and he was like, really, you know, and I feel for him because he does his job. Right. And we think it’s our job to talk people out of epidurals. It is not our job to help people. It really isn’t is our job to offer other alternatives. But epidural always has to be on the table. We need to listen to women and I’m so adamant about that because because he listened to me in that moment. And I needed him to listen to me because he was like, Are you sure? And I looked at him and I said, not like this. This is not it’s so far gone. You know, I talked about going down an epidural. I was talking about like, you know, with a flower crown and a birth center or anything. Like obviously, I just imagined it being so much more wholesome and holistic and centered and I was able, you can’t say no epidural and then take away every other tool they have to cope. Suffering. And so he understood that and the funniest thing happened. Well, it’s not really funny. I said to her swinging, I said to like an epidural. And she said the strangest thing. She goes, Are you sure you want an epidural? That means you’d have to go into a labor and delivery room. And I was like, What do you mean I could get my own? Okay, yeah, no, I want that. Like no, I want it more. What do you think is the weirdest weirdest thing so the residents run and check me because I spent so much time as a doula talking people through the conversation about getting examined and what what pads do go on and this and that, and we really slow down the labor around these points, the cervical exams being a big, big one. And I remember it was just like, checkmate, whatever. I’m just I mean, after all, I don’t care if you check me or not, but I was checked and in retrospect, I was four to five centimeters and that was like two hours or so after. Wow. Look, I was rocking and there was a reason why I was in so much discomfort. So they gave me the epidural or they hold on to the head. So they get me over to l&d. And the l&d nurse is worse than Monday. She was so just didn’t want me to be there. She didn’t like me. She hated her job. You can just tell when people hate them. And I think too, as a birthing person or a birthing moment you press especially sensitive to energy because you have to see who’s a danger to you. So I think I’m already pretty sensitive to people’s energy. But I was really quite sensitive that night. So I remember going into the bathroom and wiping and there was blood, mucus and blood like I was opening really beautifully. And I remember sitting on the toilet. This is right before I’m gonna get my epidural. I remember sitting on the toilet and thinking I could do this What am I doing? But it’s because I was sitting on the toilet I was right. I was able to sort of release it was a completely different experience to sit on the toilet and labor versus being strapped to the bed and labor go figure go figure that was different. So I didn’t know that at this point. You know, I mean, really, I just needed a way out of the school scenario. Everyone was so awful there and I’m getting a C section that I had that this ended it was not the worst part. The C section was the way out of being surrounded by I’m so vulnerable to people who were disrespectful and who couldn’t care less about me. So I get back in my my one fear actually, you know, you asked me that question before about why I went and will say and I just remember the answer, because my biggest fear about birth was not giving birth. It was about getting a needle in my spine. So I was trying to avoid an epidural. And and my fears were founded because this anesthesiologist was female anesthesiologist came in and she gave me the epidural and I remember feeling the needle go into my spine, and it was uncomfortable. It hurt. It was like getting a needle in your spine.

  

I remember being moved and I think I remember being like, oh and I moved and I screamed and she was so

 

Kaitlin    

I don’t know the word for it but but this day and she was like, is it pain or is it just couldn’t believe I was reacting like that and I was like it’s even in getting the relief. I couldn’t get relief from the from the game so awful and looking back at it wasn’t even one of those patients. You know, the one we all fear being the one that like to be honest, I wasn’t even that I was so docile, but I think the morale at that place was really rough. So I got there. And I finally got released and it did its trick, which is great because it doesn’t always work that way for people. So it did have that full relief. But then I was resting as close my eyes and every time I opened my eyes, everybody was still in the room and everybody had really big eyes and my mum looked terrified. And I realized that they were worried about the heartbeat of the baby, that they were watching midwife the midwife had returned. She helped me through the epidural. And you know, it was the worst part about that is that she was actually incredibly comforting. She was very good during the epidural and it would have been a different labor if she stayed if she had to work. I deserved a midwife and I said, So I realized that they were concerned about it and I, I opened my eyes and I looked at midwife and I said, what’s going on? And she said, well, so my baby was going to tack a cardiac instead of radical artic. So the biggest party wasn’t going along. It was actually going to really high up. Which after taking care of strangers, newborn resuscitation protocol, that’s just as dangerous. That’s just as bad of an indication. So there was a heart rate issue. And in retrospect, what happened is essentially his head was a little asymptotic. It was just like a little off. I think it would be opening so quickly, and then the epidural, I’m sure opening me. I think he just got jammed in and stuff. And he just struggled a little bit. So I remember looking at the midwife, and she said I still hate him. We would she said they were all clearly worried about it. They were describing something that was scary. And she said I’m gonna call them the OB and the OB will come in at about 45 minutes. Oh my god. And I want to just like preface this by I said this about me and I would never say this to a pregnant person. I said, Okay, I just want to help the baby. Just get me healthy baby. And I say that because it’s incredibly toxic to say at least the unhealthy baby enters a healthy now that’s not true. I matter. But at that moment, everything I had desired about this birth was so far out of the window, right? What I meant if I had the capacity to speak in a full thought, What I meant is you’ve ruined all of this right? This has already been destroyed. I need to help the baby at the end of this.

 

Paulette  7:30  

I’m going to end my conversation with Caitlin here for today. I so appreciate her sharing her experience of the postpartum period, which I think is regrettably common. Many of us leave the hospital or birthing center to return home are met by our new job that requires work around the clock or that we often do alone and work that we do when we’re exhausted at a time work.

 

Next Friday I will share the rest of this inspiring story.

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Episode 81SN: A Doula (and Mother of 5) Offers Miscarriage Support and Much More: Aliza’s Story, Part I

This is a show that shares true experiences of pregnancy to help shift the common cultural narrative, away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka, I’m a writer and an economist and a mother of two girls. In this episode, you’ll hear advice about managing miscarriage or a woman who has experienced numerous miscarriages intermingled with the births of five children, and she’s a doula. She also shares how each experience taught her something valuable. Today, you’ll hear the first part of our conversation.

To connect with Aliza, check here

Audio Transcript

Paulette: Welcome to war stories from the womb. This is a show that shares true experiences of pregnancy to help shift the common cultural narrative, away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka, I’m a writer and an economist and a mother of two girls. In this episode, you’ll hear advice about managing miscarriage or a woman who has experienced numerous miscarriages intermingled with the births of five children, and she’s a doula. She also shares how each experience taught her something valuable. Today, you’ll hear the first part of our conversation.

Let’s get to this inspiring story. 

Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?

Aliza:  my name is Aliza Said and I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. I am a mama marriage coach. I’m also a birth doula actually, and this podcast is very relevant. I’m a mom of five and I live in Israel. My main passion is helping moms who are feeling really overwhelmed and as I like to say feel like they’re drowning in dishes and dipers to be able to reconnect to themselves and to the people around them that they love. So that’s what I that’s my main task in this world now.

P  That’s awesome. And, you know, my sense is that the Senate moms you’re talking to are all of them. Five kids, you lucky duck. That’s awesome. Oh, yeah.

A  1:42  

Yes, very lucky.

P  1:44  

So I love to start us off before the kids before Did you know growing up that you wanted a family? Do you have siblings? Was there something else that kind of sparked that interest?

A  1:55  

Yeah, so I come from a big family as well. We’re six siblings. And from the time I remember myself as a little girl, I always had a doll with me. I was always like mommying something. I always wanted like a chimpanzee pet just so that I could be a mommy. Like I always wanted to be a mother at every age like so it was definitely something that I always dreamed about. I really wanted. I was able to see really empowered moms around me. And that’s just who I wanted to be. So that was really special.

P  2:32  

That’s super cool. So I’m imagining that the first baby came before you became a doula or is that not right?

A  2:38  

Before before I only became a doula before my fifth baby. 

P: Okay, okay. Yeah, I will have a right yeah, 

A: so actually, the first birth is what sparked my desire.

P  2:54  

So for the first one, did you get pregnant easily?

A  2:57  

I mean, what’s easily?  To me. No. And it was really hard for me because I thought, and this is what I saw all around me that people get married and 10 months later that they have a baby. And that didn’t happen to me. And we also had a miscarriage a few months after getting married. And that to me, nobody around me ever spoke about miscarriage. I never heard about someone having a miscarriage. That was like, completely heart wrenching for me like I’m also not pregnant right away like everybody said, now having a miscarriage and I felt like a failure. I felt like my body wasn’t working. I felt like everybody was able to do it and only I couldn’t and that was really difficult. Now I noticed that it was one of the biggest gifts that we were given as a couple and me as an individual because it definitely made the mother that I am today but in those moments, it was really tough. we actually had an appointment to go start in fertility treatments. And we decided that before we start, we were gonna go on a vacation and we found out that we were already pregnant. 

P: Oh, wow. 

A: Yeah. Which was very, very exciting. But yeah, it was definitely a journey. And I now say that I’m so grateful for it, even though it was really really difficult and those moments

P  4:22  

Now age is not the only thing that can affect your, your journey. But how old were you for the first one?

A  4:28  

So I was really young, we got married very young. I always say I needed my husband to grow up like I needed to get back and really on, because we needed to grow together. I was 19 when we got married, and I had my first baby 21 and a half

P  4:45  

So like today we say that’s young because people are having babies later and later but historically that’s not super young at all. That’s like right in the wheelhouse. Right, it’s when there’s when your body knows to be pregnant.

A  4:56  

Right? And I remember even the doctor saying to me like when I had the miscarriage she’s like, well, you’re so young and healthy and like I ate really, really healthy and I was exercising like, super healthy. She’s like, you’re gonna get pregnant really fast. And then it didn’t happen. So like it doesn’t always go according to the books. And I think that that’s also part of the beauty of it, that it’s kind of the gateway to go into parenthood. It doesn’t all go according to the books and there’s this element of learning to let go of control and to be able to, you know, ride the wave.

P  5:32  

Yeah, it’s such a it’s such a good lesson if that’s the way you interpret it because it’s totally true and everything you know, parenting will teach you whether you want it or not that you have no control. But this is a very good lesson that and I think most of us grew up even if you I live in the US and even if you didn’t grow up here, most of us grew up in the US. Okay, well, you grew up thinking I will have sex and I will be pregnant. And that’s how it works. And that’s not really how it works. That’s not that’s how it works. Sometimes right? That’s not that’s not really a thing. So how was the pregnancy?

A  6:04  

So the pregnancy Well, I just want to also say to what you just said right now, that also it doesn’t always happen like that and also miscarriages happens. And I like make it a point to talk about I had two miscarriages probably another one in the middle over there. And I talk about it a lot. And I think that it’s so important to talk about it and like I say it’s kind of like awakening this silent tribe of women out there that we’re all in this together. So how was the first pregnancy the first pregnancy was beautiful, blissful, amazing. We were just like so in awe of the miraculous thing happening. And it was really beautiful. Like I felt amazing. I was really just every minute of it.

P  6:48  

So take us to the birth. What are you envisioning? And then how are we doing today is the day

A  6:57  

so what am I envisioning? Well, once I became pregnant, I was like, Okay, I’m going to do this in the most empowering, beautiful way that I can and I started researching and like really learning everything I could and reading a lot and and I found hypnobirthing. And I would like watch these home births and I was like, that’s what I want. And everybody around me said to me, just wait it’s your first birth. You’ll never survive without epidural. It all sounds nice and everybody around me was saying all these different things and I was trying to believe it could be beautiful

A  7:37  

My husband was at a party. He was working in education, and he was with this student until like two in the morning. They have this party. He came back we were like we were like talking until late and then four in the morning. I started feeling like period cramps. I was like meaning I think something might be starting here. I put like a warm bottle and we were just like kind of soaking it up. We put on our music and my playlist that I got ready. And we started just enjoying the day and the wave started coming and the contraction started. We went out for a walk to go see the beautiful view and I was like it’s gonna take time. So the first birth and we were just having a lot of fun together. And I wasn’t counting contractions or anything because I was like it’s gonna take time, but my mother kept calling and she was like, okay, that were two minutes in between contractions like you gotta go. And we were just I was not in pain at all. I was completely like riding the wave, like I said before, and just really breathing through it like swaying with my husband and going on a walk in nature. The doula came to my house. And I said to her, I think we should start going out because we lived kind of apart from the hospital. And I said, I’m a little nervous because when there’s contractions, and I’m breathing, I feel like something’s coming out. Okay, let’s go so we finally got to the hospital and I walk in and I’m like, swaying and swinging and singing to myself and the doctors let the midwife who who was there when we got there like Okay, first birth, it’s going to take time I see that you’re excited, but then she was like really not acknowledging that I was far along. And then she checks me and she’s like, you’re fully dilated. 

P: Oh my gosh. 

A: And she was like, completely shocked. My husband started hysterically crying and we were just like, so excited. And she was like, Okay, I’m getting you a wheelchair and I don’t need a wheelchair. I’m gonna walk. So I walked in. I walked into the laboring room, and I was like, Okay, now what? So the midwife was like, Okay, start pushing, even though now I know I was not ready to push at all. I did not feel the urge to push at that point. But I was fully dilated and she said to push so I started pushing.

P  9:55  

So I put three hours well, let me only stop you there for a second. Yeah. Do you know how push have we taken a class like what happened to the homework? That seems like that flew out the window?

A  10:06  

Well, that at that point, I wasn’t gonna have homebirth yet. I only had at my fourth grade. I had like a real journey with each birth. So the so I knew how to put we did like a course with with my doula. We kind of spoke about pushing, but I was in such an endorphin bubble, that I was just completely blissful. Like the midwife asked my husband, what did she smoke at home? I was really just enjoying every moment of it, and we were singing and we were like, completely enjoy it. And it wasn’t even like aware of things I was saying, like I opened my eyes and I know that everybody’s crying around me, because I was like, pouring out my heart and I was like, I was completely drugged on endorphins. So in I mean, now I know to say that I did not need to push for two and a half hours, but in those moments, I was really enjoying it. We were singing all the doctors there was like a line outside of the room because they all wanted to come in and see the beautiful spiritual experience that was going on in the room. So I remember the doctor said to me, you know, we need to put up a big screen so everybody can see how it could happen. So after two and a half hours of pushing, she finally came out and it was just a beautiful moment like unbelievable. It was really blissful. And yeah, so that really was what started my journey and understanding what an unbelievable power we have as women and what we can birth into this world. second birth was completely different.

P  11:40  

We’ll get there that so that’s awesome. That is such a lovely story. And I can imagine if that were my first birth, I’d have five kids also. Because I’d be like, I always just want to do this more. Right. That sounds great.

A  11:54  

Absolutely. I say some people like to go bungee jumping. I like to have kids.

P  11:59  

Yeah. Yeah, they’re I think there are some people who have like, the just so physiology and all that and so it’s awesome to meet one of them. Thank you for coming on. So that sounds lovely. That sounds amazing. And then how’s the how’s the fourth trimester fine, and how does it go?

A  12:17  

So yeah, so also that like we were completely blessed, I’m telling my first story, but hold on for a second. Like it sounds too perfect. That’s alright. Life gets real, but the first one was very blissful. Also, she was the easiest baby ever. She completely like made it so easy for us to do the transition. She slept when we wanted her sleep. She didn’t like she was just you smile when when she was awake. Like she was the easiest baby ever. All right now she’s, you know, teaching us what kind of parents we need to be. But, you know

P  12:49  

And she’s still have like that character.

A: No.

A  12:56  

I mean, what’s the character like? 

P: Is she really easygoing

A: She suddenly like easy, you’ll have a lot of power in her. Okay. Okay. Like, I mean, she has all of that but ya know, she has a lot of a lot of inner fire.

P  13:09  

Good. I like to hear. So now let’s get to the second one and ensure you have this first one and how old is the first one were you before you think oh, let’s have another. So

A  13:20  

we were really thinking I was on birth control. But it didn’t wait. I was on birth control and then I had a miscarriage. And then that was again, not so easy. But even though it was a completely different experience, going through it with my baby on top of me. That was when she was around seven months old. And then I got pregnant again. Then I went to like, I also went to like a natural doctor and someone who was actually a traditional midwife, and then she went to go there in Chinese medicine. And we did like acupuncture and herbs and lots of different things, which was a very good healing process for me. And then about a few months later, I kept telling her I want to start trying to get pregnant because once I start trying, it’ll take me like a year and a half at least, like it takes me time. Like, let’s give me the time and she kept telling me no, no, give yourself time to heal yourself and to heal. And then I think it was my daughter’s first birthday. She’s like, okay, you can start trying, but like on a low burner. And then I got pregnant right away, which was like really miraculous and really amazing. So I also want to say in parentheses. There are many people that wait much longer, and like my story is, you know, a small little time that we needed to wait and this was the journey we needed to go through. And I just want to say that I send so much hugs and empathy to anyone who’s waiting much more than me less than me and I feel like those months gave me the ability to understand and have much more compassion towards women who go through that, like I really, I’m very lucky I didn’t have to wait so long. But I it was such a significant part of who I am. Because it gave me that compassion to all the women out there even though I understand only a tiny bit of what they’re going through. So I just want to say that

P  15:17  

that’s nicely said Wait, let me ask you one thing before you go on in your journey of the five kids. You had two miscarriages total or you had more

A  15:27  

two probably three but we didn’t really like two, two official.

P  15:31  

So as a as a doula and someone who’s in this space and maybe you didn’t do for yourself because you weren’t there yet. But do you have an idealized ritual that you would tell people to do or something you wish you had done? Or, you know, something you’ve learned both from your personal experience and your experience as a doula that you might want to share with people about you know, I have found this is particularly helpful in miscarriage.

A  15:57  

Yeah, well, I’ll say two points that I find is really important, from my personal experience and from the women that I work with. One is to really give yourself permission to grieve debris. And it doesn’t matter how many weeks you were pregnant it doesn’t matter if you wanted the pregnancy and, and it happened or if you weren’t expecting a pregnancy and you happen. It doesn’t matter what the circumstances are. Allow yourself to have this time of real grief. And I feel like today we’re so quick to go back into life. I just spoke to a friend who went through a miscarriage many more weeks than I was she was almost halfway through 

P: Wow. 

A: She felt like a need to go right back and she’s a dance instructor and she like uses her body a lot and she went like right back and and after a few weeks she completely crashed and she said I didn’t give myself that time to like, really just sit with it and be okay with it that this is what my body’s going through and to give myself that time and to go through all the feelings and and sometimes it’s all different feelings and sometimes they’re scary feelings and sometimes they’re contradicting feelings, and all of that is okay and give yourself that time for that vessel. When I think that that is super important. Then know how to contain that vessel and go from there, but I feel like there needs to be more of a permission slip to all women out there to go through that. 

And the second point that I want to say is to really recognize how different the way that me and my partner are going to grieve. Many times it can cause a lot of friction, it can cause a lot of resentment, a lot of blame a lot of a lot of things. I think that recognizing that we both go through this in a very different way. But we’re both going through it is so important and to be able to open up and talk about it and to be able to know how to listen to the other person. And even though it’s my body that went through it. My husband also went through a loss and to be able to also recognize that and to be able to really go through it together and not just expecting him to be able to see what I’m going through or this is something I see a lot with my clients, whether it’s miscarriage and also birth, you know also in a birth, a husband is also going through all of these things, even if it’s not his body, but really recognizing that we’re both going through these big transformations here. And being able to recognize that and know how to really work with that instead of working against it.

P  18:33  

Yeah, those are two really good suggestions. I wish I wish in American culture we had a well defined set of rituals for miscarriage like we do for the funerals of people who have been alive a long time or even or even babies right we have a whole set you know the Irish have a set of rituals Jews have a set Indians have a set so many different cultures have a way that they process those feelings. And the step by step this of it is really useful when you’re in the deep emotional well of sadness and grief. And I wish we had something like that for miscarriage, which you know, or I guess our process is to ignore or move on. Right? That’s our ritual, but that doesn’t seem very satisfying or useful.

A  19:16  

Right. And also, I feel like when we’re able to do when you expand your heart to feel the really hard emotions, then you’re also expanding your heart to be able to feel the good emotions, you know, in such a stronger way. So yeah, I I I encourage everyone to do their own ritual and to do whatever I mean, there’s so many different things. I don’t want to share personal stories of clients this Yeah. Permission to share their own personal but there are so many things that people do as you write as Jews we have our own rituals that we do after and yeah, it’s definitely very really soul encompassing like it kind of gives you this you know, place to really go through it.

P  20:01  

Yeah, that’s totally Well said Aliza. So your point about you have to feel the bad to fill the gap. Right it’s it’s a continuum and you have to open the door to feel at all so but I interrupted you on our on our second baby. So now we’ve passed two miscarriages, we get pregnant again. We’re so excited. 

Okay, go…then what?

A  20:19  

Again. Pregnancy is beautiful, amazing. feel amazing. Have a baby with me, but really enjoying every minute of it. My baby was home with me. I mean, she was she was home with me. Yeah, at that point. She was home with me, and I’m just really enjoying. Then I was really ready. At the end of the pregnancy. I was like feeling really ready. Okay, let’s go. Let’s get this happening. We went on a really long walk. We lived like in this mountainous desert area. And we went like, climbed up mountains and came back. And I was like, I just want to wash the floor. I started washing the floor and as I watched the floor Park I heard it like burst my water. My water broke. It was a good thing. I was washing the floor because it was like

A  21:11  

yeah, I was like okay, I guess it’s it’s starting but I wasn’t having any contractions. 

P: I’m down here already

A: Now I was already going into this birth was like a lot of expectations because after the birth that I had, I would like I’m probably gonna fly through this one. It’s gonna be beautiful and I like I was still kind of a perfectionist at that point. Now I’d say I am a recovering perfectionist, but then I was still kind of a perfectionist. And to me, you know, okay, I had a perfect birth and here I am gonna have it again. So it started with the water breaking and that kind of got me nervous already because I knew that having your water break, you know, there’s probably more of a chance that anything can happen from there. If if nothing starts if that you know too much time passes, and they’re gonna have to start intervene. And I didn’t want all of them I was I was like, Okay, this is how it started. Let’s get the contractions going.

P  22:05  

So, so just to interrupt you for a second. I think what you’re saying is once your water breaks, the clock starts right because you need to because of fear of infection, or you need to get things moving. So so now you feel like things have to happen.

A  22:20  

Exactly. There’s a wide range of how long that clock is. I mean, there’s some hospitals here in Israel. There’s some that is 24 hours, some 48 hours. I know I also had a baby in Uruguay and there it’s called hours. So like it really varies where you are. I actually heard of a place of 72 hours. It really depends. So anyway, I knew that my clock was ticking, and there were no contractions at all. So we decided that we were going to send my daughter to my father in law because I wasn’t gonna eat my car. I came to pick her up and bring them bring her to their house. And we were like, Okay, let’s just make an oxytocin kind of kind of environment. So we turned off the lights and we put on candles and we started singing and dancing and just putting like good, good aromas in the house that I liked and just tried to really bring out good energies and then contractions started coming. And when they started coming at a good pace, we’re like, okay, maybe we should start going out because, first the first birth went kind of fast for our first birth, maybe the second will be even faster. I’ll just say in parentheses, it was not. It was the longest birth ever. So at one contraction, like I had a whole lot of water coming out and I felt like maybe I felt something and I was like, Okay, maybe we should get in the hospital, get into the car and go to the house. So we get into the car and really as we left the house and started driving towards the hospital, the contractions completely stopped. Like nothing, nothing at all. And we spoke I spoke to my Doula on the phone, and she said, Well, maybe go back home. See if we were in far from the house and she said maybe you know, try and bring it on again. And then you guys could go so we went back home started again. And again, the contractions started coming. And again, we leave and again the contractions are like almost met. And it was so clear to me that I was that I was kind of like blocking. Like I was nervous what was gonna happen and the whole time I was very aware of what was going on inside of me and how much it was really affecting the way that the birth was going on inside of me and how much it affected me. So we get to the hospital where

P  24:28  

the first one was so well like why what what’s bringing on the nerves that you want it to be as good as the first is that what the what’s going on for you?

A  24:36  

Okay, there were a lot of things going on. One was that that I had these really high expectations. Second, I was like the poster girl of birth like I had to bring back this beautiful story so that everybody could see how beautiful birth could be like I felt like I had huge pressure on me. I also was at the time we were like not sure if we were moving, not moving. My husband had given up his job because he thought that we were moving and then we decided we were like we were in this like really really turmoil kind of time that just wasn’t sitting on me well and there were like a lot of stressors in my life at that time. And I wasn’t like I wasn’t coming from a settled peaceful place. Like I was the first time.

P:  Okay. 

A: Also I was really nervous that maybe I was gonna have to go to the bathroom. This is like a real fear that I have and a lot of my clients also have, I was so afraid that we’re gonna have to go to the bathroom during birth. So I was like holding myself every time that I had a contraction. So then we get to the hospital and I said I still don’t want to go in I’m not in my bubble yet. Let’s walk around in the in the parking lot. Now it’s freezing cold in the Jerusalem air and it was freezing and here we are walking around in the forest. For about two hours. We were walking around and I was enjoying every minute of it because I was like swaying during my contractions. And I felt like I was bringing them on in a good way. My doula and my husband told me afterwards that they were freezing cold and they like, but they just wanted to be there for me and they were then we finally go in and I was six centimeters. And I was like Okay, good. We’re enjoying. We started actually playing backgammon haven’t really played back at me my husband at that at that time, and then contractions kept going. And then I got to eight centimeters. And I got stuck for six hours at eight centimeters. And it didn’t matter what we were doing. I put my foot up on a chair. Maybe he was the wrong position. I tried doing like all these different exercises with my doula and nothing and every time they would check me and again eight centimeters, eight centimeters. And at that time, I said to my husband, I know that these things are bothering me, like I gave him a list. And that’s why I’m not able to completely let go. And I like I’m not. I’m not completely relaxing and I know that I’m holding it up. And I was like aware but at that moment, I couldn’t yet let go. And then a doctor came in after six hours. And he said to me, Listen, we gave you a long time. And also I want to say that this time. It was painful, like this time when I wasn’t able to let go it was very painful and I like knew now what they mean when when pain when pain can be really real in childbirth. And that was new for me because my first and thank G-d my others were not. So I knew what it was and I really felt like it was when I was holding myself then it was painful. And then the Dow employment and so

P  27:38  

So it’s like resistance is the issue. 

A: Yes.Yes. Like when you work with your body. It doesn’t have to be painful. You feel a strong power and a strong surge going through your body. But it wasn’t painful at any moment. Like even our at my first birth a doctor came in. I wasn’t aware that I said this only told me afterwards that a doctor came in and to call the other doctor that was there because somebody wanted an epidural. And they told me afterwards that I said No Tell her not to get the epidural. She doesn’t know what she’s missing out on. Like I was just so enjoying. I don’t judge anyone that takes an epidural who ever needs an epidural. Whoever wants an epidural? You know? No, no shame to that at all. Not because that’s not why I said it. It was just like in that moment. That’s what I was feeling. So anyway, the doctor came in and after six hours of being an eight centimeters he was like okay, we really tried giving you as much time as we could, but that’s it in 10 minutes. There’s nothing new. We’re starting Pitocin I looked at my doula and I’m like, nope, what’s going on here?

P  28:43  

I’m gonna stop my conversation with Aliza here. In a second. It was very much and up to this point, mirroring the beautiful and easy birth like she hoped it would. On the one hand, it’s easy to relate to these a stress feelings about trying to walk footprints left by Erzberg at the same time to vaccinate. And he’s gotten almost science fiction feel to Yes, of course you can do things to reflect your own state of mind and relaxation and those who’s getting pregnant and being birth is often early parenting. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the show, if you learned something or felt connected to or just appreciate these stories of real please go over to Apple or Spotify or wherever you’re listening. It helps we’ll be back next Friday with the rest of my conversation. She shares how his second birth went down and talks about her other

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Episode 24SN: Birth Before and After becoming a Doula: Keisha

If you look at birth over time, it used to be the case that women were always attended at their births by other women, and sometimes midwives, and these births happened at home. In the 1930s american women moved those births into hospitals, in part to pursue effective pain relief and the allure of more safety–but for a good decade it was not actually safer to have births in hospitals. And over the next 50 years the process of childbearing became more heavily medicalized–with benefits: lower maternal mortality rates and less pain in delivery. But by the 1980s, in part to push back on the increasing rate of C sections, doula’s started to attend women in the hospital–they were trained attendants who had been to other births and could advocate for a laboring women who was too involved in the process of birthing to also be involved in all the decision making…


Studies suggest that doula’s can have a very positive effect on a woman’s experience and today I’m excited to talk to a doula, both to hear about her birth experiences and her work.  And in fact, in this case, my guest became a doula in large part in reaction to her first birth experience…

You can find Keisha on Instagram @keishadoeswork or on doulamatch.net under Keisha Graham

Cervix ready for birth

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/cervical-effacement#effacement-vs-dilation

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/labor-and-delivery/in-depth/stages-of-labor/art-20046545

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/cervical-effacement#diy-measurement

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6205862/#:~:text=Summary,occurs%20prior%20to%20spontaneous%20labor.

Giving Voice to Mother’s Survey

https://reproductive-health-journal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12978-019-0729-2

Nitrous oxide

https://academic.oup.com/bjaed/article/16/3/87/2897753

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1413427-overview#a2

Failure to progress

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?zx=crujqgpvkn4o#inbox?compose=VzqbCVPFZTlKDkdWzQFWSZGzChwXsZQzTKrHFdVnLdNKtWgkktZwtzNtHsGSVctmfVtdrMwNGVnWVLncFqcvtLQPZbXkrQXTSzWmSXJMzPBKFkZJhBcDqMxFMtMLKLHRplfKTjdgxhrWvkhRjBQstVkcPMFkspmQgqlMVdkWSmjrZZRctZLVzdzfvGjvjTLGbflmzBMcNmCdMsPqQqfwgjvnQqzDLXhZzlXRSRRjPnhtCQGwgfhllgSC

C section risk versus risk in a vaginal delivery

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/c-section/about/pac-20393655

Biggest C section risk: your hospital

https://www.consumerreports.org/c-section/biggest-c-section-risk-may-be-your-hospital/

Audio Transcript:

Paulette: Hi, welcome to war stories from the womb. I’m your host Paulette Kamenecka. I’m an economist and a writer, and the mother of two girls. I didn’t have a straight path through any part of the process of growing a family, and my experience was complicated enough that I never considered a doula, in part because I had no choices to make at the delivery, all those choices were being made by doctors. 

But if you look at birth over time. It used to be the case that women were always attended at their births by other women, and sometimes midwives and these births happened at home, in the 1930s American women move those births into hospitals in part to pursue effective pain relief, and the allure of more safety for a good decade it was not actually safer to have births in hospitals but that evened out. And over the next 50 years the process of childbearing became more heavily medicalized with benefits, lower maternal mortality rates and less pain in delivery, but by the 1980s in part to push back on the increasing rate of C sections doulas started to attend women in the hospital. They were trained attendants who had been to other births and can advocate for labor woman who was too involved in the process of birthing to be involved in all the decision making. 

Studies suggest that doulas can have a very positive effect on women’s experience, and today I’m excited to talk to a doula both to hear about her birth experiences and her work. And in fact, in this case, my guest became a doula in large part in reaction to her first birth experience.

 Let’s get to her story. 

Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show, can you tell us your name and where you’re from.

Keisha: Yeah, my name is Keisha Graham and I’m from Richmond, Virginia. 

P: Great….And Keesha How many kids do you have, 

K: I have two, two girls. My oldest is 12 and my youngest is six. 

P: Oh nice. 

K: Yeah, we’re a household of girls so no one knows how old we are, we all lie about our age.

P: Excellent, good as long as you keep in the family, it’s perfect.

K:  Exactly. 

P: So before you got pregnant with your first, he wants to have some idea about what pregnancy, like, what were you imagining it would be like?

K: The only thing I knew about pregnancy before I gave birth was what I saw on TV, and I had a cousin who had a baby a little bit before I did she have two babies actually and I had spent some time with her like her husband was deployed so I went to her state and helped her raise her two little kids but I didn’t see her, Like be pregnant I knew kind of what raising a family was like, but pregnancy was kind of like foreign to me, except for what I saw on TV.

 

P: So does that mean that you’ve thought it would be easy or, you know, you’d be gorgeous the whole time or

 

K: I didn’t, I didn’t go in, I’m somebody who just doesn’t go in with anything with any high expectations, so I thought that if there was anything that I needed to know I definitely would get it from my provider or, you know, my mom or my grandma would tell me or my cousins, I just thought that it would be simple and like straightforward. 

P: Okay, that’s a good setup. Alright, here we are. So, did you get pregnant easily the first time?

K: Yeah, it was an oops, 

P: I’m glad. I’m glad to meet an oops because you’re the story we’re all chasing right? everyone thinks like…. so good that’s true in some cases. 

K: The first one is easy but the second time is hard, is the second time we were planning and it took a while. 

P: So let’s focus on the first one, and you found out with like a pregnancy test I assume like a home kit. 

K: Yep, I went to CVS, I find out that I always find out that I’m pregnant pretty early. So on my lunch break, I went and got a pregnancy test and took it and, you know, text, my boyfriend, my husband now that we were having a baby. 

P: Oh wow. 

K: Yeah.

 

P: And how was that first pregnancy, what was that like?

K: it was pretty easy, it was pretty straightforward. I had no sickness had no complications. You know, it was the ideal pregnancy, you know, heartburn, that was the biggest thing that I think I threw up once.

 

P: Great. So far this is great, this is going great…so take us to the birth and like, are you 40 weeks and I myself, maybe I’m the only one I didn’t know what a contraction would feel like so I didn’t know I was having contractions when I was, like, tell us that whole story.

K: My birth story. Yeah, is when things get different, so yeah I thought I was going to get everything from my provider, I trusted my provider. So my due date was December I think it was the 16th and then I think I went to my 40 week appointment on the 22nd. And so they did an ultrasound, and the ultrasound tech said, your fluids are a little low, but nothing to be concerned about. I went to see my OB, and she was like, Do you want to see your baby today, and I was like, Sure, 

P: yeah. 

K: And never told me anything about what my cervix was doing if my cervix is ready to be born.

 

P: Okay, what does your cervix look like in labor in early labor your cervix starts to open or dilate and it stretches and gets thinner which is called a placement or softening or ripening. If your doctor is testing the readiness of your cervix, it will be closer to ready when it’s softer as labor progresses the cervix which is about four centimeters long, thins to the width of a piece of paper, and will open from the width of a blueberry to the width of a melon about 10 centimeters, you’ll be given the go ahead to push. If you’re being induced doctors may use drugs to ripen the cervix, that try to mimic the hormones, your body will produce to get that job done, and the hormones cause the cervix to thin and your uterus to contract

K: that inductions sometimes take a while, and mines ended up being two and a half days.

P: Oh my God, that’s a long time. So, so did you get to like go home and get your stuff and then come back to the hospital or how did that go

K: No, I just went right up to labor and delivery, my boyfriend was supposed to go to work that day so we had to pull out of work. I had my mom bring my stuff up, and you know, We thought it was gonna be pretty quick. She said, Do you want to see your baby today so I thought, you know, maybe midnight I would at least, you know, have a child.

P: Yeah, today implies today. I’m with you. Yeah, so they get you in the hospital room. Did they put you on Pitocin or what was the process.

K: So that part’s, it was a blur. So I started with a servo, I do remember I started with some Adele, and it was hard, just like any cervical ripener, it was sharp and crampy. And I wasn’t given like the option of what drugs, I could take or what my options were at that point, everything was just. Here you go, this is how we’re going to do it, do you want me to refill your water, so I started with cervidil  and after that took a while, that took a long time and then

P:  I had no idea It felt like anything. 

K: Yeah, it feels like cramps, it feels scratchy on your cervix. Well, this was my experience, it was scratchy on my cervix, and I felt it being there, and then I felt like really strong crampy sensation after, 

P: so uncomfortable is what it sounds like, 

K: yeah, it was terrible. 

P: And then what happens next. 

K: And so then, at that point I get Pitocin. And then, I was on Pitocin for a while, and then after Pitocin I will while I was on Pitocin. I ended up getting an epidural.

P: Did your contractions start with Pitocin like does that work.

K: Yeah, I think, with the cervical it was working for a little bit but they weren’t as strong and then serve it only takes you, but for, you know, so far, it only like ripens the cervix is not going to dilate the cervix so at that point after I was as ripe as I was going to get I guess they were like Pitocin is next. Sorry, I was in a while. 

P: And what was that like, 

K: pitocin was hard but then I got an epidural. So, everything, where everything else that I felt physically was fine after that point. So I have a lot of introduction like interventions. After that point, and you know I kind of breeze through them, it was pretty simple.

 

P: So they give you the epidural and then and I just kind of waiting right till you’re dilated enough.

K: So the nurses come in again. They like roll check your cervix after X amount of time they check it it’s not where they want it to be so they introduce another intervention. So then after the Pitocin. I get my water broken, actually, with this birth, it wasn’t like there was no consent, it was, I’m in here. I’m gonna break your water, it’s done.

P: I’m already feeling like this is a bummer because this doesn’t at all sound like, do you want to see your baby today, like it not just that does not, I would not feel and that’s what this means, right,

 

K: it’s in a baby factor you know we need a bed, so we’re gonna do all of these things, so that we can open up the spin, but you’re not going fast enough, you’re not on our time clock so this is what we’re going to do.

P: Yikes, so, so do that, are you there for a full day before they break your water or how does that all go.

K: Water was broken, the next day so I did the cervidil and the pitocin from the first day. Yeah, and then chosen overnight and then my water was broken. The next morning, 

P: and then it sounds like you labored that whole day. 

K: Still laboring day. At that point you know they’re just cranking up the Pitocin. Yeah, just to get my contractions where they want it to be. And that’s the second day.

P: : And then can you feel that or has the epidurall worn off at this point or

K: no it’s still going, and I had a really strong epidural one stronger than what I needed. Yeah, so I’m just lying in the bed like no one’s telling me that I can move like what I know about labor now is that even with an epidural, you can move a little bit, and that helps progress the labor, no I was kind of just laying there, waiting for the staff to do something next to me. I didn’t know if he like an active participant at all.

P: Yeah that doesn’t sound pleasant Good lord, so then…now you’re there for two nights. And then what happens the next day.

K: The next day is Christmas Eve, and my doctor comes in and says well you have to have this baby by noon because I’m going on vacation. And so I’m just like, look at her like, there’s at this point I’m already feeling defeated, I’m already feeling like, you know, you’re just doing stuff to me you’re not telling me what’s going on. Not knowing that I could ask questions because this was my first hospital stay, it was, you know the first time, yeah that I’ve probably ever been in the hospital I don’t think I’ve ever like this had to visit anyone in the hospital. So you don’t know what questions to ask you don’t know what you can say to your doctor, you know you’re looking to them as the, as authority figure at this point, and that person comes in and tells you that you’re not working on their timeline, and it just feels so defeating

P: that I have to say that’s crazy to verbalize I’m going on vacation and you have to go. I can imagine someone’s thinking that but not saying,

K: yeah, it was Christmas Eve, and it’s like my family just Christmas he really big like we all get together and I just thought that I would be home with my baby. 

P: Yeah 

K: because you told me I think my baby today, so she that’s what happened that day, she told me, I’m leaving. At this time, and so she left. At that time, even though we were just continuing to wait I didn’t have many other interventions at that point, they did an internal monitor right before I started pushing my baby’s heart rate was descending. So they gave me an internal monitor, and then it was time to push and I pushed for two hours. Yeah, they got pushed for two hours just about a vacuum was used to get my baby out, and then she was born. When she was born she was brought to my chest, but I didn’t want her there, I kinda was like, no, just because I wasn’t feeling anything like I knew that after you give birth, you’re supposed to feel all these things, and it’s supposed to be this like beautiful moment but I didn’t feel like that. So I, you know, told them to take her over to the warmer, and you know I saw her from there but I just, it just didn’t feel right at that time because of everything that I went through over the last two and a half days.

P: Yeah and it from the stuff I read if you have Pitocin but you aren’t producing it yourself. It’s a totally different. You’re in a totally different mindspace right if your body was producing Pitocin you would have gotten it in your brain, which helps with the connection. But if we’re getting it artificially 

K: Yeah,

P: you’’re not getting that right so

K: right, we are my girl I work with likes to say it’s called like the Oscar award winning speech after you have the baby you have like this, oxytocin high does oxytocin rush so you’re like, thinking everybody you’re checking fingers and toes you’re doing all of these things, because, you know, oxytocin does that to us. That’s why they call it like the love hormone, but yeah Pitocin doesn’t it just brings on contractions, it just does what it’s supposed to do. Give you contraction, Stop hemorrhaging.

 

P: Yeah, so it sounds like. It makes sense how you are feeling right like you’re responding to everything that has happened over the last two and a half days which is just disappointing. And but the baby’s fine. 

K: She’s fine, she was healthy 12 fingers 10 toes. She’s amazing and she do

P: How long do you guys stay in the hospital after that,

K: we stay there for I think two days. Yeah, we went home on the 26 I nursed you know her, she was a great nurse or it was fine, but yeah I’m sent home with this baby, and trauma from my experience in my labor.

 

P: And did you recognize it in the moment, like, did you think oh this was traumatic.

K: Oh, no, it wasn’t right, but I didn’t think that it was traumatic and so after processing my own postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety that I had throughout the time, like my postpartum period.

 

P: Well that sounds really hard from the stuff I’ve read it looks like one in seven women have postpartum depression. And somewhere, I think in the Cleveland Clinic I read some article that said, it’s the most common condition of childbearing. 

K: Yeah, oh yeah, it’s really up there. 

P: So, did you recognize, like in the fourth trimester that you were having postpartum depression or did you just think, oh my god, this sucks.

K: The postpartum anxiety was the thing that postpartum depression didn’t get to me as much as my postpartum anxiety did. I had very bad intrusive thoughts, and I kept saying to myself, This isn’t normal. This isn’t normal but I didn’t have anyone to talk to about it. I had a trusted network of friends, I didn’t have a professional that I could go to about it. I wanted to talk to my doctor, but I didn’t like her. 

P: Yeah. I bet

K: And then we would do screenings at the pediatricians appointment but I didn’t feel that I can talk to them about it as well, or the things that I did say they were like yeah that’s just baby blues, but by the time I really realized that I had postpartum anxiety I think I was, I was well out of it, which is great but also could have, it would have been beneficial for me to get help sooner or couldn’t recognize the signs sooner. 

P: Yeah, that’s the story I hear from a lot of women. I think it’s hard to recognize while you’re in it, because you’re busy being anxious or you know whatever right so and so did you become a doula between the first birth and the second birth or tell that story.

K: Yup…I became a doula between the two. So after my birth experience, I went to births with like friends and family, just as someone who had seen it before, because I, when I gave birth in my early 20s I think it was 21 when I had my daughter, so by the time my group of friends, like started to have their own children, I had already been there done that so I wanted to go with them to just help them out, because I knew my experience wasn’t typical or should not have been typical but found out that my experience was, was typical, 

P: I was curious about how common it was for women to have bad birth experiences, like the one Keisha described, and found a giving voice to Mother survey published in 2019 that sought to better understand women’s lived experiences giving birth.  The survey didn’t include a huge sample but it was just over 2000 people. And basically what the researchers found was that one in six women who filled out the survey were mistreated in some way during this very vulnerable period, during and after birth, they reported issues like loss of autonomy, being shouted at scolded or threatened and being ignored refused or receiving no response to requests for help, and the factors is associated with a lower likelihood of mistreatment, so you’re more likely to have a better experience if you had a vaginal delivery, a community birth a midwife, you were white, you’d have a baby before you were older than 30 years old.

K: I knew that that couldn’t be right because it’s not what I saw on TV. That’s not how I saw, you know, whoever on Friends give birth, is that how I saw like white women being treated. So I had a friend who told me she was like well you should be a midwife. And I was like okay that sounds cool and I looked online and saw that that required a lot of school and I was like, No. So then I had the same friend said well you should be a doula. And then I looked at that and I was like yeah doula work is more my speed. It’s something I really want to do.

 

P: So tell us how like has it, what’s that like was the training like and, and what was your experience and

K: that the universe like really lined up for me to be a doula after I found out what doula. What a doula was, I was working at a location that was recording podcasts for a doula training organization to labor. And so we just happened to be in the same space where I was talking about it. And the owner of that organization was there and she’s like yeah you should come and do one of our trainings. And so I looked it up and they were local so I did the three day training to become a birth doula. It took me a while, but from the time that I decided that that was something that I wanted to do till the time that I took the training. It took me a couple of years, but I think I was going to births I was doing the work, and I think it’s nice seeing that people weren’t being treated the way that they should and labor was really what gave me that momentum to say okay yeah I need to do this work. I actually attended the training after my second labor. 

So my second labor I changed providers. It was my third pregnancy. So as my second pregnancy I miscarried and I miscarried pretty early, but I had changed providers pretty early with that pregnancy, and then I had a provider, that was so amazing so supportive. I remember when I did miscarry pretty early, she, you know, I mean my husband come in her office, and I remember like crying in her office and she and I told her I said something like, I know you have other patients to see today and we’re leaving to get out of your hair and she’s like, No, you say, and process this, however you need to. And so I just knew that this was the person that needed to deliver my kids, any more than I have after this. So then, 

P: that sounds lovely 

K: yeah she was amazing. I still love her.

P: So we’re so this is the pregnancy where you said it was hard to get pregnant, this time.

K: So it took a while for me to pregnant again and but I get pregnant again. And, well, I thought it was gonna be so easy because the first few times were so easy, it was just like, they just happened…. the one I was really thinking about it, like I was going to try again, it took it took a while, so we got pregnant. A year later, and yeah, had a very empowering labor I still had lots of interventions, but I had a provider that made the time to tell me my options and my choices, and gave me the power that I needed back into my labor. 

P: So maybe what walk through that slowly so, so people can see the difference between the first and the second. 

K: I had a lot more information in the prenatal period, I was more than just my blood pressure my fundal height peeing in a cup and then asking if I had any questions. She was very forthcoming with all of the information that I needed to know just by asking me, Hey, have you taken any childbirth education classes do you know where to find them. These are the options that we have here in our office, but I’m sure there’s some more around, you know. Feel free to go look. She was telling me about my baby how my baby was growing, the things that I could do, you know, to help my baby grow, just a lot of information in the prenatal period. So I felt safe. When I went into labor. I just knew that I was going to go into, into this through an induction because I was induced last time so I just knew that I was going to be induced. But I ended up going into labor on my own at home and I stayed home for as long as possible, which was something that I didn’t think that I could do, but my provider made me feel really comfortable in doing that. But when I got to the hospital I was in active labor. 

P: Oh wow, really well. 

K: Yeah, I progressed really well. And then, at six centimeters hit a wall, I was like, No, I don’t want to do the same or it’s 2021 Give me all the drugs, or it wasn’t 21 it was 2014 Give me all the drugs so I have been told that it was, I will actually, before the epidural, I get Nitrus nitrous oxide.

P: Nitrous oxide, otherwise known as laughing gas is a form of anesthesia that you inhale, it sounds like it’s a pretty weak form of anesthesia, it’s usually used in pediatric dentistry, to give you a sense, but it does do something and it works quickly,

K: and that held me over for a while, while I couldn’t get into the shower, so I had to come out of the shower every hour or so for monitoring of the baby. I think at that time this particular hospital didn’t have wireless monitors so I had to get out of the shower to come get monitored, and so that was very hard, like contractions are really hard when I was out of the shower. So at one point I didn’t want to keep going back and forth so they gave me a nice choice, and that was really good pain relief option, and then the tank ran out. It was, I think I was probably like the second person in the hospital to ever use it or something but they were telling me it was very new to the hospital system at this time. So the tank right now, the nurses, even know how to use it at first, it was a mess. But it was helpful when I was able to use so after it was done I said I’m going to get an epidural. And then I got my epidural, and labor beautifully after that, I don’t think they needed to break my water until the very end because I had just a little bit of space left my baby was Opie which is occiput posterior Sunny side up. So, my cervix didn’t dilate all the way. So she was looking up instead of looking down when she was supposed to be, you know, the other way. 

P: Does that, does that mean a C section or 

K: No, no, sometimes it means longer Labor’s, and then in my case, it meant that my cervix didn’t dilate completely. Uh huh. It dialated, almost completely. So she broke my water to help try and get it to dilate more was like, like a half a centimeter, I guess, of dilation that needed to happen before they wanted me to start pushing, so she broke my water because of that, and I was like okay with that because she said either we can wait a while, or we could break your water, she gave me both options. And I was like no I’m tired. So let’s go ahead and do this, she broke it, we still waited a while, nothing happened. So we kind of just pushed past that little bit of dilation, which was fine. and I the second kid was born in 15 minutes. 

P: Oh Wow, well done.

K:  It was like three pushes 15 minutes is very quick. Yeah, so when it was time for me to push, I remember my doctor was sitting on the bed and saying, you know, all right, go ahead and push and I was like well, don’t you want me to put my legs on the stirrups Don’t you want me to do all of these things she’s like No, I’ll just do whatever you want. And that was just so empowering. It was just the greatest moment ever. So, I had a birth, that was traumatic but also had one that was so rewarding and empowering and I knew this is the type of birth that everyone should have.

 

P: That does sound like a story book kind of birth, where you’re making all the choices. 

K: Right. 

P: Yeah, that’s amazing. So now tell us I was saying to you before when I was having children, I don’t know if doulas were a thing or not but I, I was not aware of them. So give us a sense of what you’re doing for other people because I can’t, I can’t really imagine, doctors, kind of backing down if they’re if they’re sort of not approaching appropriately. 

K: Yeah, advocacy advocacy work is what I do, it was one of the things that led me to doula work was being able to, you know let people know of their options and their choices when they feel that they don’t have any or letting them know that it’s okay to ask questions. I never want to speak for anyone but just saying, you know, maybe there is another way, just ask, because you can ask questions to your doctor, and that’s okay. And they should give you that information. Consent is very important in this work as well making sure that everyone has informed consent for everything that happens throughout pregnancy, labor delivery in in their body and with their baby Afterwards,

Doula work is a lot of educational support in the beginning, especially, I mean, bindable free care, when you’re in the midwifery program it were free model care, you do tend to get a little bit more information than those who birth with an OB But yeah for those with an OB but or actually anyone in general really is just giving them evidence base, up to date information on whatever it is that they are going through in the pregnancy journey at that time, or that you may think that they need to know it’s anticipating folks needs as well.

P:  I’m guessing that you’re, you really shine in the labor and delivery room right because that’s when I think for sure for your first birth, most women don’t understand the degree to which they’ll be compromised when when everything’s going down right like all of a sudden you can’t really speak for yourself because you’re in excruciating pain or whatever you don’t know what’s going on. So, is it the case that like you’re having the talk with the mother or and then she’s communicating to get into the doctor like how does that all work.

K: We all talk together like I have no problem asking questions why providers are in the room where you know sometimes people might want a little bit of privacy or something like that to have conversations. I don’t know if we talk prenatally about some common complications that may come up and how to address them, giving you all of the tools that you need creatively to ask the right questions if something comes up, and then reminding you that you have those options to ask questions in the moment you can always ask, what are the benefits to this, what are the risks. Are there any alternatives. And then also, mostly advocating for more time for people.

Very rarely are people rushed into an emergency C section where they’re pulling cords out of the wall and then brushing them back to the or anything outside of that I’m always advocating for people to ask for just a few moments for them and their partner to talk about what’s going on, or to process what they just heard, so that way they’re not moving into the next steps with any doubt or worries, which they may still have but at least they have some, a little bit of time to process everything that’s going on and they can confidently move into that next step.

P: And you talked a little bit about your birth versus what you had seen for white women. I interviewed a woman at the Center for American Progress, and she works on maternal health issues among other things, and she was saying that for black women, the ways that racism finds its way into the delivery room are not always overt. So it’s not always like an obvious thing like, I don’t know that this woman was being racist with you but that’s an outrageous thing to say to a laboring woman…I don’t know what the was driving that her treatment of you but I wasn’t there but, but I’m imagining most of the circumstances are not quite as upfront as that.

 

K: Right, yeah, yeah, it’s, you know, biases that, yeah, yeah, that’s the face that people of color face when they are in labor. It’s a lot of, I don’t want to say the same type of stereotype, only because I am used to it and I, because it’s lived experience for me so I know what to look out for, but it is a lot of not ignoring or ignoring folks of color, their pain or their pain tolerance or thinking that they are exaggerating when they’re saying that something is wrong with them. It is a lot of ignoring their needs, and, you know, attending to the needs of someone else, ahead of them or something like or a white person’s needs, I should say, versus a person of color,

P: so in that instance you can go in like advocate for them and say no, she really needs another epidural or whatever like more.

K: Yeah. And luckily, I mean, The good thing about being a as a doula being able to see both sides and being able to be in the room for all types of people is that I can say, well, if they, if I have a nurse or a provider that says oh this is not how we do things here I can easily go back to experience that I’ve had with a white person is a well, actually this is how you did things how you’ve done it before, and this day and time, look at my notes. But

P: That seems super, that seems super powerful. That’s a great, great leverage to have.

K: So, yeah, it’s nice being able to advocate for folks in that way to say, you know, if they say, This isn’t how they do things I know that they do them, the opposite way,

P: I can imagine that is an unbelievably frustrating thing to hear when you’re in the mix and your client is in pain and need something right. 

K: Yeah, 

P: that sounds like a lot, so how long have you been a doula for.

K: So I’ve been professionally trained as a doula for four years, but I’ve been doing the work way before that.

P: That’s cool. So I bet you’ve been to a lot of births.

K: Yeah I think by the end of this year I will be probably well over 100 births. 

P: Wow, that seems like life affirming work. 

K: Yeah, it’s pretty exciting right. It’s always exciting, it’s always something new, 

P: and I’m imagining again when I was having kids there was no skin to skin, there was no like delayed cord clamping and that sort of stuff so it’s probably cool to be in a field where there’s constantly new and different things coming out.

K: Nice to be in a field where we’re bringing things back to the family, and out of the medical complex out of the doctor’s hands and bringing it back to the family like the skin the skin the delayed cord clamping. I even advocate for fathers to try and catch their babies we talk a lot about that. 

P: Oh, that’s cool. 

K: Yeah, because, I mean, they mean my job is to make sure that partners, I should say fathers, but partners are active participants in their labor as well like this is a family events, and not something that doctors have to oversee completely.

P: That’s super cool and I know that my husband had no idea what to do, I mean I had c sections but he’s still like, I want to go hide in that corner and you call me, so it’s nice to have someone who knows what he’s doing to kind of guide that process.

K: I think that I biggest, another one of my biggest roles is normalizing the process as well, so that partners don’t have to worry so much about advocating and, you know, answering all the questions and knowing all of the things, while the birthing person is in pain in going through their stuff. So I’m able to be like oh, that’s normal. Yeah, she’s throwing up, that’s okay.

P: Yeah. Don’t mind her yes that’s very funny. I thought that most states don’t allow insurance to cover doula services is that your experience. 

K: Yeah, in Virginia, we don’t take like the insurance companies don’t cover the list services. There are current bills being passed or laws going into effect, that where doulas can be covered by Medicaid. But I haven’t seen much where doulas are covered through private insurance. A lot of folks can use their HSA or their FSA account to pay for doula services, okay. Yeah, medical insurance.

P: That’s super cool. That is very cool work and it’s a totally interesting way to go into it right to have had your experience and think like I can fix this. 

K: Right, yeah, 

P: God how rewarding that’s cool. So, how do people find you if they’re in Virginia, the Virginia area, I’m assuming you don’t work outside of Virginia.

K: I do virtual work. Yeah, I mean this pandemic has opened up so many lanes for doula work since a lot of hospitals were closing their doors to doulas, we still needed an avenue to get into help families, so we do virtual work so I do virtual doula work for anyone, anywhere. If they need a doula. But if you are in Virginia, and you’re looking for someone local, you can find me on Instagram at Keyshia does work, or on doula match dotnet, and under my name Kesha Graham,

P: so that’s awwesome, I’ll put that on the show notes so people can find it. What’s it like to be virtual for birth, or do they have you in the labor and delivery room like on phone.

K: yeah, I mean FaceTime or we can check in every now and then where we can ask questions, if it’s really tailored to whatever it is that you need but yeah I mean I’ve done like FaceTime, where I’m just like on a tripod. Like, you got it. You can do it, you know it’s a lot of coaching at that point but also reminding families that you know they have choices they have options they have power in their experience and they should wield that power.

P: That’s amazing. And I can imagine, if I were in the circumstance where I actually had to push a baby out. I would probably trust you more than my husband because you’ve seen it before. Right, yeah. You know I can do it. He’s got no idea. So that’s super cool that’s an awesome job.

K: Thank you. Yeah, I love it. It’s really amazing. I love I love seeing families, work together, I am of the same like mindset that you are like, let the doula handle it. A lot of a lot of partners really get this like power inside of them that they don’t know is there when they’re faced with their partner going through something really hard that I really like to see. Yeah, I like the best births and when I just stand in the corner and get to watch families do their thing.

P: That’s amazing. What’s your ideas about C sections and like the stuff I’ve read is that, you know, there’s obviously serious surgery and you’re much more at risk to have some kind of complication if you go through a C section. And the other thing I saw that was kind of damning said the biggest predictor of whether you’ll have a C section or not is the hospital you’re in, as opposed to your medical condition. So that’s suggestssomething wacky is going on, what’s your experience because C sections of do you try to turn them around or how do you deal with that.

K: I’m not there to give anybody medical advice.

P:  Okay, 

K: so if the doctors are calling for a C section, you know, the only thing that I am able to do within my scope is to have the family ask questions and then help them come up with the questions to ask to see if it’s a true emergency or if they have a little bit more time, my own opinion on C sections but they are here for a reason. But with the current rates of C sections in knowing that there isn’t this big decline with mortality, mortality and morbidity, then we still know that C sections are being over utilized

P:  Yeah. 

K: From what I see sometimes I feel again me as someone who only took a few day training and has attended a limited amount of births I feel that sometimes you know, maybe things just need a little bit more time. And then I do feel that they are a little bit rushed, but, you know, again, I’m not a medical professional so

P: yeah I mean it just you’ve heard these stories where like the baby’s not in distress or anything. And they have a C section and you’re watching like any there’s the mother, so

K: that’s why provider choice is so important. That’s why place a birth is so important there is a thing of birth culture, like, your hospital is going to have their own individual birth culture, culture, so it is important to talk to families who have birth at the place of birth, where you’re going to birth, and have been with the provider that you’re going to see when weighing those options about C sections and I think it’s important for everyone to talk about C sections because we don’t know who is going to need a surgical birth, versus, you know, a bachelor one,

P: I assume there’s no like scorecard where you could see kind of what your hospital does, or is there some way to evaluate the, the environment you’re about to go into

K: some states have C section rates listed on their state website or you can find it on the hospital website, But sometimes, information if it looks kind of unfavorable it’s kind of hush hush so you kind of have to scour the internet and the message boards to find out that information,

P: but but usually someone is keeping track of that, so

K:  it’s out there is out there, but

sometimes it’s outdated I think for in my seat I think some of the information is a couple of years old.

P:  Okay. Okay, interesting. Well, that’s also a good idea. So reason number 87 to get a doula is to be made aware of all these things that you should be checking on. 

K: Oh yeah, definitely for sure. 

P: Thanks so much for coming on, I totally appreciate your time and your story. 

K: Thank you. Appreciate it.