Tag: pregnancy

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Episode 72SN: Becoming a Mother without my Mother: Melissa’s story, Part II

Today we pick up the second half of Melissa’s story. At the end of last week’s episode Melissa was on bedrest, she has to leave her job and be home with a four year old and a husband who worked full time, in a town in which she didn’t have a strong support network because she’d moved there relatively recently. To remind us where she was emotionally, I’m going to share an excerpt from Melissa’s writing–this is a sneak preview of her book…in this excerpt she is describing the experience of being told about the prospect of a too early birth…she writes:

I was in pre-term labor.  The office was located within the Women and Babies Hospital, and so they took me down on a gurney to the hospital Emergency Room and started the admission process.  My time in the ER was a blur.  I have very little memory of that time as I was in shock.  I changed into a hospital gown, and my husband called his ex-wife to come to pick up Tommy.  

IVs were inserted, and countless nurses and aids were getting me situated and asking what felt like a million questions.  I was in a daze.  At one point, they informed me that they needed to begin administering a series of steroid shots to give the baby’s lungs a boost in case I delivered that night.  My OB entered the room and told me what the plan was.  I would remain in the hospital while I received a series of shots that included steroids and several other medications designed to stop the labor.  She told me that the treatment would feel pretty awful, but we needed to stop the labor because the survival rate at 26 weeks was only 50%.  

How was this happening?  I was still in the second trimester, for goodness’ sake.  What did I do to deserve so much loss in my life?  Once again, I felt like my life was falling apart, and I didn’t have my mom.  I prayed my little heart out.  And every few hours, I gave thanks that I was still pregnant and the baby was still alive and growing.  

The hours crept by, and another shot was administered.  Hours turned into days, and my pregnancy continued.  It was at this point in the hospital when the shock and terror of it all began to abate, that all of the other factors I needed to deal with came crashing down.  It was at this moment that I began to feel the full impact of becoming a mom without having the assistance of my own mom. 

To find Melissa’s sites:

Website: https://www.momswithoutamom.com/

https://www.instagram.com/momswithoutamom/

https://www.facebook.com/Dr.MelissaReilly

https://www.tiktok.com/@momswithoutamom

Enjoy Being a Mom Again Quick Guide:  https://www.momswithoutamom.com/enjoy-motherhood-again-guide

Care For Yourself While You Care For Your Baby Guide:  https://melissareillypsyd.lpages.co/bonding-with-baby-while-caring-for-yourself-opt-in

Schedule a complimentary coaching call: https://MelissaReillyPsyD-MomsWithoutAMom.as.me/free-coaching-call

Audio Transcript

Paulette Kamenecka: Welcome to war stories from the womb. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls. Today we pick up the second half of all this story. At the end of last week’s episode, Melissa was on bedrest. She had to leave her job and be home with a four year old husband who worked full time, a town in which she didn’t have a strong support network, because she moved there relatively recently to remind us where she was emotionally I’m going to share an excerpt from Melissa’s writing. This is a sneak preview of her book. In this excerpt, she’s describing the experience of being told about the prospect of a too early birth. She writes:

P 0:08
She writes, I was in preterm labor. The office was located within the women and babies hospital so they took me down on a gurney to the hospital emergency room and started the admissions process. My time in the ER was a blur. I have a very little memory at that time. As I was in shock. I changed into a hospital gown and my husband called his ex wife to come pick up Tommy IVs were inserted and countless nurses and aides were getting me situated and asking what felt like a million questions. I was in a daze. At one point, they informed me that they needed to begin administering a series of steroid shots to give the baby’s lungs a boost in case I delivered that night. I would remain in the hospital while I received a series of shots that included steroids and several other medications designed to stop the labor. She told me that the treatment will feel pretty awful. But we needed to stop the labor because the survival rate at 26 Weeks was only 50%. How was this happening? I was still in the second trimester for goodness sakes. What do I do to deserve so much loss in my life? Once again, I felt like my life was falling apart and I didn’t have my mom. I prayed my little heart out. And every few hours I gave thanks that I was still pregnant. The baby was still alive and growing. The Hours crept by another shot was administered. Hours turn into days and my pregnancy continued. It was at this point in the hospital when the Shock and Terror of it all began to be that all of the other factors I needed to deal with came crashing down. It was at this moment I began to feel the full impact of becoming a mom without having the assistance of my own mom.

M 2:25
It was it was really tough that again, this was a time when I really wished I had sisters with a mother and my aunt God bless her lived in a different state, but she was there for emotional support. My dad lives you know in a different state as well. So he wasn’t any help. I did have an emotional health but he’s still bad.

P 2:48
Yeah, yeah. It’s different. It’s different.

M 2:50
Yes, yes. So

P 2:52
this sounds like a way too much for one person to bear.

M 2:57
Yeah, it was it was a lot it was a lot but, you know, thankfully, we got to 36 weeks. Wow. Yeah. And I went in and they’re like, okay, because I got in and you know, an uptick in like a contraction. So like you’re 36 weeks at this point. We’re not going to stop it. So if you if you deliver, you deliver. Okay, that’s exciting. But it’s deliver.

P 3:26
I mean, so it was it was 10 weeks between finding the issue and yeah, that’s a long time.

M 3:32
10 weeks on absolute depths. Yep. And in and out of you ever hospital more shots and checks and all that and what, what year is this? This was 2010

P 3:45
Okay, so not I’m imagining there’s less for you to do from your day than there

M 3:49
is yeah, there was no yeah, it was no zoom. And, yeah, I couldn’t work whereas now you’re like, Yeah, I need to I mean, that was Yeah, yeah, it was definitely not like it is now. And so, yeah, so 36 weeks. Wow. Like, okay, you’re off that rest. Let’s try and get moving. We need to build your strength up. So, I’m like, Okay, I’ve been in bed for 10 weeks, and now I need to start removing, but it felt like the world opened up and went outside. That Halloween was that week so we took my my oldest trick or treating and then of course, the contractions went up. So that night, we went again to the hospital, and they sent us home. And I made it to 37 weeks.

P 4:40
Wow. Are you are you appreciating the irony of being sent home at 36 weeks? Yes.

M 4:45
Oh, I was I was like, Okay, this is good. Well, the funny thing is, Paulette, this is hilarious. We still joke about this. So Halloween night, they sent us home, it was like 2am and we get stopped. There was a DUI checkpoint, right? And so they stop us like where are you going? And my husband’s like, home where have you been? Have you been drinking, sir, you know? And he’s like, No, I don’t drink you know, he’s 30 years clean and sober. So no, I don’t drink recovering from women’s and babies. My wife was in labor. And then you know the two officers shine my light right in my belly. It was hilarious. Like,

M 5:23
okay laugh because it was just like in unison Right, right. So my belly.

P 5:32
That’s awesome. Well, a very legit costume. It sounds like

M 5:37
so, so we go in, and at that point, we were going in every day, just because I did. They wouldn’t become stronger. They would become, you know, scheduled. And at this point, I was like, I don’t know what to do. I was four centimeters dilated for about a week. Wow. Yeah. So and my husband was terrified of like, going me delivering the baby while we’re on our way to the hospital. So but ever third 2010 I woke up really severe pain. I said I think something’s different but let’s get there. So we got there. How still only four centimeter dilated? Just like Alright, I’m gonna send you over to the hospital again. As you know, I’m on that ball. You know, and I’m doing my thing and I’m walking. And then she comes in and at this point, tears are running down my face. And I said to my husband, I said I can’t move. I can’t keep doing this. I don’t know how it will be different. Because remember, I I’ve been having contractions for months there. Yeah. And so she comes in and she’s like, You’re five centimeters dilated to this I promise you we won’t send you home you’re gonna deliver your baby with you know, today or tomorrow. Like all right so she left and then literally 20 minutes later. So the at this part quite I’m still on like the emergency part of the labor and delivery hospital. So very well admit you. So they haven’t even started getting that paperwork together. And my waterproof which was like oh, okay, we’re going to and she was like, alright, it’ll take three five and 10 hours. What I felt, you know, I was walking there like what do you want us to roll you to to, you know, the your actual room. What do you want? At that point, I had pain. Like I never imagined my life and it literally froze me. Like, I couldn’t move. I couldn’t speak. I couldn’t I couldn’t literally I was just stationary like statute. And at that point in time, I thought I can’t do five hours this because I had wanted a natural birth you know? So once my husband called for help and the nurses were able to like get me onto a gurney and there started rolling it and I was able to get the words out. Epidural, please Like okay, we’ll order that. So they get me into my labor room. And I’m just like, in this incredible intense pain, I could barely talk. And you know, the, the nurses asked me all the admission questions and my husband’s answering it and I start like, like, PSP and push into the quad he talks are pushing up. So let me check you. I was nine centimeters. Wow. five centimeters to nine centimeters in 20 minutes.

P 8:29
I was gonna say on the other walk from the ER it sounds like yeah,

M 8:32
20 minutes. She’s like, Oh, okay. Go ahead and push you doing your thing. I’m sorry, sweetheart. You can not get an epidural. And this this is happening. Right now. Like, oh, okay, well, she’s it goes, but it’s usually been an hour now. And my husband’s like, Honey, don’t worry, you can handle anything for an hour. And he was right in my head. I’m like, Yeah, that’s a patient. Right? You know, because in my life, everything is you know, the hours that I know when an hour looks like I can do this. Like, okay, okay. And again, barely talk. I’m doing like doing my husband’s answering the questions. And so they call the doctor back. And I was just very quick so she comes back. It’s been less than an hour. I just like oh my gosh, they’re there he is here he comes out there in time to catch the baby cow. Wow, my delivery was was only an hour so I kind of joke my pregnancy, but man my delivery was like like eautiful I mean, you know, I didn’t even have a Tylenol like it was just, you know, all natural and everything. You know, it was just wonderful.

P 9:46
That’s amazing. There’s something to be said for contractions that can be measured with a calendar instead of a stopwatch.

M 9:53
Yes, yes. Absolutely. Yeah, right. Exactly. Oh my gosh. Well, and the thing is, is I, you know, I said to

M 10:00
my husband, I’m glad I didn’t have that material. Because there is no way I would have been doing what I was doing. If I did have all that sensation in my body. You Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Like I needed. I needed the sensation of my bike like I needed. I mean, labor was hard, right? Yeah, physically. Nobody talks about that right. How physical it is like, like, you know, I’ve run a marathon. I know what difficult strain is. And there’s a physical strength that goes into labor. And I don’t know that I wasn’t able to tap into that physical strain. If I didn’t have you know, that sensation

P 10:49
if you couldn’t feel anything? Yeah, for sure. For sure. It is. I think for all of us pregnancy, every aspect of pregnancy is more physical than you imagine. And it may be that that the language doesn’t capture the visceral feeling in a way that you can that you can feel it or that it’s just not like anything else. So most stories about feelings are analogized but but there’s there’s nothing like pregnancy. There’s nothing like birth there’s nothing like those contractions and I remember the contractions keeping me from breathing. I was thinking this is a terrible system, aren’t I? Gonna need to breathe? This is

M 11:25
right. And I was terrified because being on bedrest, I hadn’t taken any, you know, delivery courses, like you know, the classes. I was terrified. I didn’t know what to do and again back then and it’s not like they would do a virtual class. You I had broken my pelvis when I was 16. So part of me was still terrified that like that would become broken and so well, yeah, all this fear going into it. But, again, I was very blessed with with a very beautiful delivery.

P 12:03
That’s amazing. And in reminding us in 2010 Are they putting the baby on your chest and

M 12:08
yes, yes. And in this hospital, babies and moms were together and they had a nursery, but the nursery was only utilized if the mom requested it. And they encouraged it. I was not being separated from my baby after everything I got through.

P 12:29
So I think his lungs were fine and he was fine.

M 12:33
He he did not need the NICU. He was definitely jaundice. So there was some, you know, a little bit of extra checking that needed to be done. But that we didn’t know until a couple of years later that he has some neurological differences. Because of the shots that were given to stop his his delivery. He had what’s called childhood apraxia of speech, as well as some other conditions. So he didn’t nurse a he struggled with nursing which is a common symptom of that disorder. But we didn’t know it at the time. That isn’t something that’s diagnosed too much later.

P 13:18
Is it something to do with how his mouth moves is that what that

M 13:22
apraxia is a dysfunction in movement. So the brain says move something, but the nerves that connect for the body to them respond, don’t transmit the message very well. And so that’s why part of why that there’s it becomes problematic so yes, he struggled with latching now I was so pigheaded and so stubborn and I really wanted to nurse so i We did everything we could we got lactation consolidated. And I was so determined because we needed to supplement with formula but the more formula we supplemented with, the more uncomfortable he became like he just wasn’t responding well to the formula. And so I was just really determined, and we got the hang of it and it became a good nurser at about five weeks. It just took a really long time. That’s typical him was a little delayed and things he gets there a little longer.

P 14:28
Well, that sounds like it worked out that you were firm about the breastfeeding

M 14:32
because, yes, yes. And I thought pregnancy was hard. Oh my goodness. Once I got to the breastfeeding, it was like oh my god, this is even harder.

P 14:41
Well if you think about it is coordinating so many things almost not what you have real control over right? You can affect milk supply, you can affect latch really. No, that’s

M 14:52
no, you know, nobody tells you like all these people are touching my breasts. At this point, I was like, Okay, well it was labor and delivery. Everyone was touching those private parts. Now it was such a nice private party. Okay, so it’s like, Alright, forget it. I’m not you know, I became one of those women that was like, Alright, I’m breastfeeding my baby and you see my breasts, but it’s,

P 15:12
yeah, yeah, you really lose that sense of privacy of your own body pretty

M 15:18
quickly. Yes.

P 15:20
I guess interestingly, you didn’t really have that labor because it went so quickly. But so many women tell the story where they’re like 11 hours in I did not care but I was naked and like, you know, the guy with the food cart is walking through like everyone’s here. All right. He really didn’t have so, so that seems this all seems like a triumph that you made that far the pregnancy that the birth worked out. But you started this by talking about how you didn’t have your mother around for kind of the hard parts and I’m guessing it was also tricky. Not to have your mother there for this joyous part.

M 15:55
That’s right. I was taken. So by surprise, you know, I envisioned this being this joyous occasion and it was without a doubt, right? But I wasn’t expecting the flood of grief that I then experienced. For quite a while that I knew I was high risk was part of it. I certainly experienced that. But the experience of grief that also came along. I wasn’t expecting my mom had died 11 years prior I had you experienced grief. I knew what that was like I’d gone through many adult milestones, no jobs, husbands, divorces, moods, you know, without my mom, but this was different. And becoming a mom, I felt so inadequate. I felt so incapable I had no idea what I was doing. Despite the fact I was a clinical psychologist and taught child development and treated women. You know, in parenting. So I had all the knowledge in I was just a shy of 30 and I was pretty confident as a woman myself. And this brought me to my knees. So because I didn’t realize the impact that not having a mom my life would have. I didn’t have somebody to ask questions of I didn’t have somebody to share. That joy in the same way that that moms share. I didn’t have somebody that could just come over and give me time for a nap or a shower. Right? I couldn’t call her in the middle of the night. I didn’t have these things. And I didn’t know what an impact not having them had. On me was having. So what did I do? I just internalized it and thought there was something wrong with me. And so that’s why I became very passionate about talking about fitness. Because I want other moms that don’t have the support and guidance of a loving mom in their life to know that there isn’t something wrong with that. Because it’s hard. We all know being a mom is hard. But the reality is the uncomfortable truth is that being a mom without a mom is even harder and there isn’t something wrong with you and you’re not alone. There are literally millions of us. But again like miscarriage, nobody’s talking about it. Nobody talks about

P 18:28
Yeah, that’s totally true. It is it is unfortunate cultural oversight defect mistake to not talk about it. And to not have like a ritualized practice around how to manage that specific kind of grief. Right.

M 18:44
Exactly. Exactly. And how to support you know, support the women that need that. Yeah, so

P 18:51
yeah, that sounds that sounds like a profound thing that you went through and that you and that you eventually understood. Are you giving talks about this or like, how do you spread your message?

M 19:02
Well, you know, that a year ago, I made the decision to start a coaching practice, focused on assisting moms without a mom. And so I’ve done talking about it, and podcasts. I’ve been doing some summits and speaking about 90% finished with the book I’m writing. And so I’d love to get the message out and I want to support as many moms as I can. Yeah, that’s fine. Yeah. And that’s why I’m doing it as coaching rather than just therapy because I’ve been working with moms that as part of my clinical work, but I want to be able to reach a broader number of women.

P 19:44
I think it’s so valuable and i i can so see what you’re saying as as a super important message. I remember my mom coming to visit me when the baby was really young. And we went out maybe for our first or second walk in the end of the street. And it started raining and I started sobbing like you need so you know what to me like she was like if they can get wet. It’s one of their tricks like it’s, but I know the feeling of helplessness as a new mom where you just, it all seems so foreign and this is such a giant transformation that I feel like we kind of focus on it with, you know, baby clothes and like strollers or something like some commercial aspect, as opposed to the, you know, deep emotional transformation that has gone on that you don’t quite understand in the moment. That you kind of need a guide you really do, right? So I can imagine that it’s even harder if you’re blaming yourself for not having the guide and not feeling competent, even. I mean, you’re like the perfect example as someone who teaches this stuff but right the embodied experience. So it was different, right?

M 21:02
Absolutely. And I didn’t have you know, it didn’t have sisters. I did great. I did. And it was older. So all my friends that had children and their kids were teenagers or adults at this point. So this is really out of sync.

P 21:16
Yeah, that’s amazing. So I’m so glad you came on and shared your story. I so appreciate it. And how do people find you?

M 21:23
Well, easily my I have a website called Moms without a mom.com They can find me on Instagram. At mom’s dad mom. I’m also on Tik Tok and Facebook and I’ll give you all that information. On my website. I have two free guides one for moms of newborns. It’s called care for yourself while you care for your baby. Because as a mom without a mom, you know self care isn’t about getting time by yourself. If you don’t have anybody to watch your baby, you have to take care of yourself while your baby’s there. So I have six pretty easy tips to do that my favorite ones.

P 22:04
Okay, awesome. That sounds great. Well, I will definitely put that in the show notes. So thank you so much for sharing your story.

M 22:11
You are welcome. Thank you so much, Paulette, I appreciate it.

P 22:15
Being a first time mother is challenging in a million ways, given that every single thing changes after birth, your body, your role, your relationship with your partner, your relationship to your work, and the world in general, is particularly helpful. To have people to consult with and few people are going to feel questions of any size or shape at any hour like your own mother. Most of the message is so important to share that everyone finds this transition challenging. It’s not a reflection of someone’s ability to be a mother if they feel this challenge. In general, we would all be better off if there were many more sources of support for the pregnancy and postpartum periods. I’m always inspired by people who use their own experience of hardship to help people that follow them and this transition. Thanks again to Melissa for sharing her story. Thanks for listening. We’ll be back next week with another inspiring story

 

 

 

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Episode 71SN: Becoming a Mother without my Mother: Melissa’s story, Part I

Today’s guest is a clinical psychologist, whose mother passed away a few years before she had any direct experience of pregnancy. She encounters recurrent miscarriage, three in the first trimester, and then a pregnancy that progresses past the first trimester, only to be threatened with prematurity early in the third trimester and experience all of these challenging and transformative events are harder to manage without her mother. Now she’s focused on helping women who are going through or have gone through these major life events without their mothers. What follows is the first part of our conversation. Next Friday we’ll hear the rest.

To find Melissa’s sites:

Website: https://www.momswithoutamom.com/

https://www.instagram.com/momswithoutamom/

https://www.facebook.com/Dr.MelissaReilly

https://www.tiktok.com/@momswithoutamom

Enjoy Being a Mom Again Quick Guide:  https://www.momswithoutamom.com/enjoy-motherhood-again-guide

Care For Yourself While You Care For Your Baby Guide:  https://melissareillypsyd.lpages.co/bonding-with-baby-while-caring-for-yourself-opt-in

Schedule a complimentary coaching call: https://MelissaReillyPsyD-MomsWithoutAMom.as.me/free-coaching-call

How common is miscarriage

https://www.yalemedicine.org/conditions/recurrent-pregnancy-loss#:~:text=About%2015%20to%2020%20percent,still%20be%20attributed%20to%20chance.

https://www.acog.org/womens-health/faqs/repeated-miscarriages

Audio Transcript

Paulette: Hi, welcome to war stories from the womb. I’m your host Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls. Today’s guest is a clinical psychologist, whose mother passed away a few years before she had any direct experience of pregnancy. She encounters recurrent miscarriage, three in the first trimester, and then a pregnancy that progresses past the first trimester, only to be threatened with prematurity early in the third trimester and experience all of these challenging and transformative events are harder to manage without her mother. Now she’s focused on helping women who are going through or have gone through these major life events without their mothers. What follows is the first part of our conversation. Next Friday, we’ll hear the rest.

Let’s get to her inspiring story. 

Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?

 

Melissa: Absolutely. So my name is Melissa Riley, and I am from Lititz, Pennsylvania or that’s where I’m living is in Lititz, Pennsylvania and I’ve been here for 13 years.

 

P : Oh, wow, nice. Situate us in Pennsylvania. Where is that?

 

M : It’s the southern part. It’s in Lancaster County. So if you think about Amish country, yeah, that’s where I am and about an hour and a half west of Philadelphia.

 

P: Okay, excellent. 

 

So normally, I asked people about their experience with their family and whether it affected their ideas about what they wanted in the future. And I know from our brief conversation before we started recording that the answer to this is already going to be yes. But usually I cast it in terms of like, did you have siblings did you know you want to have kids but but why don’t you tell me a little bit about your story? 

 

M: Absolutely. So I was born into a family with a mom, dad and older sister and then 18 months later came my younger sister. And unfortunately my older sister was diagnosed with leukemia. And she, unfortunately in the 70s that was, you know, a terminal condition. And so my parents were needing to take care of her. Of course, unfortunately, she passed away at the age of seven, and I was only four. And then life went on and I was very close with my mom. She was a very strong woman larger than life, both physically and personality wise. Everybody knew her. And me and my younger sister were very close. And so I did always envision myself having a family and children. Well, things started to fall apart. I went to college and learned things that you know, my family wasn’t what I thought it was. And my mother and I had an estrangement that I know we would have worked through. But we had the estrangement about eight months prior.

 

P : Let me ask a quick question. Before you get to where you’re going here. Do you want to talk about my family wasn’t what I thought it was. Do you want to elaborate on that?

 

M : sure, sure… My mom, you know, both my parents, God bless them. Our whole life was impacted by the death of my sister after she died. We never talked about it ever. Death was something that I learned was so terrible. You couldn’t even talk about which of course isn’t true. But that was the underlying message that was passed along to me. And my parents didn’t mean to do that. It was just too painful for them. Right. So we never talked about it. And my mom became pretty depressed and my mother had her own history of some significant physical and emotional abuse herself. So she had a difficult time regulating her own emotions. So my parents corporate punishment, punishment was involved. You know, I became the overachiever. My little sister became the difficult one. Because, I mean, she had learning disabilities and ADHD and she was just talking to parents. And so things just weren’t as they see my mother was at, you know, a chain smoker, you know, overweight diabetic. Just didn’t take care of herself. She tried to but just, yeah, so became her own life shrink and just became, you’ll very inward, and he didn’t like what she did too bad. Then there were things that she did that I didn’t like, and it just, you know, in my mid 20s, we were butting heads about it. 

 

P: Didn’t you become a psychologist? 

 

M: Yes. So surprisingly, as the as the good kid and a family takes care of everybody else’s needs, and makes life easy for everybody else. Since life was very hard for us when we were young. Yes, I was very good at being empathic. I could sense anybody’s motion around me without anybody needing to say the words so it isn’t surprising that I became a clinical psychologist. And I went straight through college and graduate school was in the process of getting my doctorate when my mom died. But we had an estrangement eight months prior to her death. And so that complicated that factor even more,

 

P  and had you you hadn’t repaired that before. She died? It sounds like 

 

M: no,we hadn’t. It was right before I was graduating. And we had after eight months of not talking talk to twice before, in like the two weeks before she died. And I told her I had interviews for my residency. And so we had a cordial conversation, which was awesome. I mean, so I know that we would have repaired, you know, the injuries and, and all of that, but it just, we didn’t have the opportunity. She She died at 51

 

P : yeah that’s young. And that sounds pretty shocking for your family. 

 

M: Yes, it was. It was very shocking. Yeah, I needed to be the one to go tell my sister. You know, she my sister, unfortunately, had pretty significant mental illness. She was bipolar disorder. One. She was in and out of hospitals. Since the age of 16. Pretty much she had some medical conditions herself, and then all sorts of substance abuse, but she was clean and sober for the last year. of her life. And we didn’t know because of, you know, her psychiatric conditions, it masked some pulmonary problems. And so, anyway, I’ll get into that in a second. But so my dad didn’t feel strong enough to tell my sister so I was living in Pennsylvania. My sister was living in Connecticut. My dad was living in New York. So first I went, got dad, and then we went to Connecticut and I was the one that had to tell my sister that our mother had died.

 

P: Wow, 

 

M: it’s very difficult.

 

P: This this to the outside observer. Sounds like you’re doing a lot of mothering before being a mother.

 

M Oh, yes. It sounds like Yeah. Without a doubt, without a doubt.

 

P : And so this all sounds incredibly hard. And but but you walk away from this and say, I want a family of my own. Oh, my own kids.

 

M : Well, that’s not that’s gonna happen right away. Okay. Like I said, when I was young, I did and then later said, All this mental illness or this medical stuff, because my my younger sister died seven months after my mother did so. So the the man who was married to at the time was very adamant. is like, you can’t have kids we cannot continue this bloodline. Well, the the sad divorced him, but I really internalize that sense like, Oh, my goodness, my failing genetic gene pool. Is it awesome? Right? Lots of mental illness, lots of medical illness. So for the next number of years, I was like, Oh, I don’t know that I should have any children. So

 

P  can I ask one probably naive question. Yes. How strongly do genetics predict mental illness?

 

M: considerably. There’s a significant correlation. Certain certain disorders are more highly connected with Jin genetics than others bipolar one being one of them. Okay. Yeah. But anxiety, depression, they all have a genetic component. So it’s similar like heart disease. So if your parent has heart disease, that doesn’t mean you’re going to get heart disease,

 

P:  right

 

M: It just means that you’re more vulnerable to heart disease, and it will show up under certain circumstances.

 

P : Okay. All right. Fair. Okay. Keep going. Alright. So so the we are separated from the husband, he doesn’t seem supportive. And now we’re moving on. Okay,

 

M : we are moving on. My focus is on my career. I’m a clinical psychologist. You know, I taught you know, in graduate school to development, so I’m going along, you newly married, very happy and life goes on. And I realized I do want children and so we start trying and I’m in my mid 30s At this point, and I have my first miscarriage

 

P: let me let me back here for one second year. So two questions. Question number one, what do you think pregnancy is going to be like before you get pregnant?

 

M: I didn’t really well, let me not say that. I wanted to be one of those women who loved pregnancy. I was like, you know, I doesn’t matter if I’m uncomfortable. I’m gonna love this whole process. So I was one of those women who thought it was just a matter of deciding to love it wasn’t going to be crazy.

 

P  Okay so So that’s what we have stepping in and then is it easy to get pregnant? 

 

M: Yeah, it was easy to get pregnant. 

 

P: Good. Okay, good. One thing down. Now you said the first pregnancy ends in miscarriage?

 

M: Yes, yes. And honestly, that first the first pregnancy took me by surprise, because I, you know, had never gotten pregnant my entire life, despite not being very active and preventing it for many periods. So I was really surprised, but Okay, here we go. Wonderful. I’m excited. And then miscarried and  miscarried at about 10 weeks. So that was very devastating. And I felt very alone. And I’d known my mother had one miscarriage. When I didn’t really know many other women who had of course after my miscarriage, I found out about a lot of women who had because it’s not something that’s talked about a lot.

 

P: do now that I have a psychologist in front of me, I’m gonna ask do we do we think that’s our allergy to talking about death and hard things? Or do we think it’s something in particular like culturally, or do we think it’s something particular about the pregnancy process?

 

M: I think it’s a little bit of a both. Our culture is very averse to talking about death, but we’re also very uncomfortable with uncomfortable emotion, and uncomfortable emotion is normal and natural and isn’t something to avoid distress is, but it’s really important to recognize the difference between the two and unfortunately, in our culture, we do not do a good job of differentiating.

 

P  So can you lay up Can you lay out the difference since we’re talking about

 

M Absolutely. So uncomfortable is anything that again, we don’t like we don’t want it’s unpleasant, but it doesn’t create danger for us. It isn’t something that can be harmful to us. distress, on the other hand, triggers a response within our body that activates a system that tries to get us to get away from the situation that’s causing it. So that signals potential harm to our body or our well being. So things like boredom is uncomfortable, but it’s not distressing. Isolation, right if you are isolated, because you’ve been rejected. Now, that’s distressing, because being a loan for long periods of time, particularly if you’re young, can endanger your well being if I pinch your skin that’s going to hurt. That’s uncomfortable, right? But if I were to rip your skin off your hand, it creates a wound that’s distressing, something is wrong. Does that does that make sense?

 

P So this is totally helpful and and I’m wondering if miscarriage falls in a gray area where it is it right it’s it’s this is

 

M  miscarriage is definitely distressing without a demo. That sounds like talking about it. Right and talking about our motion is uncomfortable. 

 

P: Okay, okay, that’s fair

 

M : so the experience of death is very distressing, without a doubt, but the emotion around it, and that is especially when other people are communicating and may feel uncomfortable with somebody else’s grief. That’s that’s discomfort. Okay, we try to avoid that.

 

P  : Let me try to repeat back to you what I think he said to you can put me on the right place here. It sounds like distress is something that triggers your autonomic nervous system to put you in like fight or flight. And then and that shift potentially has like, sends chemical signals to your body and has all kinds of downstream repercussions. But uncomfortable does not induce any of those interior physical things and it’s just, it’s just something you don’t want to do

 

M Absolutely. However, our brain is so in tune with thinking right? So if we start defining these uncomfortable situations as not tolerable, you know, or dangerous, then the brain reacts as if it’s distress.

 

P  All right, this is tricky. Okay. Yeah. So I’m sorry to pull you away from your story, but no, you know, these things. So I want to ask you, well, I have someone who knows. So this sounds like a really 10 weeks is way too far into the first trimester. To not have it be a really sad event. And is your partner helpful or is anyone helpful or your doctor or

 

M  yes, you know, everybody did, you know all the things that that they could, you know, and, you know, my friends were very supportive and yeah, so I had people rallied around me and and I was very happy about that. I did, but that really longed for my mom,

 

P  for someone who had had the experience in your family who could talk to you about it in a way that other people couldn’t.

 

M Right. Exactly.

 

P  Well, that sounds hard.

 

M  It was it was. So we had decided that all right. Let’s keep going. My husband had a son from his previous marriage. And he was only three years old when we met so and we got married right away. So it was for at this point, we’re like, okay, I wanted the experience of having a biological child at this point. So try again, so so we try it again. And again, I had a miscarriage and now I started to really worry, like, okay, miscarriage is very common. No, it occurs in one in five pregnancies. All right, but oh, one person having two miscarriages. Not so common.

 

P Okay, so how common are multiple miscarriages? According to researchers at Yale Medical School, about 15 to 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. This is Melissa’s one five number. I’m betting it’s actually higher than that because it’s probably not always reported. But let’s use that number as a baseline. So according to these researchers at Yale, they say 2% of women have two consecutive miscarriages, which still could be due to chance and point 5% have three. Just to give a rough idea something on the order of 3.6 million people give birth each year.

 

M :So try it again. And I had a certain miscarriage. Now all the alarm bells are going off because that is rare.

 

P  are These all at like 10 weeks

 

M ish. Well, they were getting sooner and sooner. So 10 weeks, eight weeks, and then six weeks.

 

P  Okay, and is your doctor saying this sounds like recurrent miscarriage and that’s a different boat

 

  1. Started. Yes, the after the third miscarriage. She said okay, we’re gonna start doing some testing don’t get pregnant, and she took a pregnancy test and it was negative. We’re going to do a test during your next menstrual cycle, but it’s harmful to the potential embryo fetus, so it’s okay, we won’t Well, five days later, I’m pregnant.

 

I don’t know if the test you took was it? It was just I don’t know. What happened. But yes, I was already pregnant.

 

P Did you you found out because you got nauseous or you missed your period or like well,

 

M sensitive breasts. That was my telltale sign with all my pregnancies. All of a sudden, my breasts became really sensitive, very tender, and that’s not a symptom I never experienced during my menstrual cycle. So it was an unusual, so it’s like, Oh, something feels weird. So after being told not to get pregnant, I was like, take this pregnancy test. You know, and sure enough, it was it was positive. So we walk in, she’s like, Well, congratulations, which didn’t feel like congratulations. Because because I was like, I don’t know that I can do this again. 

 

P: Yeah. 

 

M: You know, and, but continue and, and I said, you know, I’ll never forget that first heartbeat that was normal and regular and healthy. It was like, Oh my gosh, you know, that hit 10 weeks. So that was this huge milestone, like Okay, can I get past that? You know, and then I did, and you know, it’s interesting Paulette, with all of my pregnancies. I’m a little different. I told all the people that were important to me, I never kept it silent. And my reasoning for for that is because I knew if I lost my child, I wouldn’t be support. 

 

P: Yeah. 

 

M: So I told everybody in my life that would be supportive and private person so it’s not like I, you know, tell people my personal business in general, but the people that I’m friends with and close with, I didn’t keep it to myself. I told them because I knew I would need them. If I had a loss again, and

 

P  this seems like the way we should all move forward, right? I can’t remember who told me not to tell anyone in the beginning. I feel like maybe it was my doctor. No, no shade intended. But you’re right that the more the course that would help you more the pregnant person in the moment is to have people who know who can help you if it doesn’t work out.

 

M  Right. Right. I’ve worked with so many women that say I don’t want to upset my family. But you’re not upsetting your family because it’s something that’s happening to you. 

 

P: Yeah. 

 

M: And if they’re upset, it’s normal. It’s okay that they’re upset.

 

P:  Yeah, this is upsetting. Yeah, 

 

M: exactly. So, so. So my fourth pregnancy comes along, and it was very nerve wracking. And here I am 37. And I knew I was high risk for a second trimester miscarriage because I had surgery on my cervix earlier in life. So I was already aware of some some high level risks for an advocate that the term you know, with a cervix just opens up spontaneously. So because of my previous my three miscarriages, my advanced age, and I had a thyroid disorder and my previous history of cervical surgery, I was being followed by fetal maternal medicine, which was wonderful, you know, the more medical supports I have around me, the better.

 

P I agree, I want to wrap you in bubble wrap. Let’s keep going. These next few months I want to 

 

M: Yeah,so here Yeah, you know, all excited and at re 26 week appointments. Just routine appointment doing the ultrasound. They find that I’m dilating. So, the nurse brings in the doctor and it’s like, Okay, we’re gonna do a stress test or you know, we’re they measure your contractions. Oh, yeah, you’re contracting and their regular you’re in labor. I’ll never forget it. I just said, What do you mean I’m in labor? 26 weeks. I know the statistics. So

 

P and it sounds like you can’t feel it really

 

M  it was uncomfortable, but I was always uncomfortable. 

 

P: yeah, yeah, Yeah. 

 

M: The week prior. I went into the ER because I had pretty severe pain in my back. And they did. They did a a kidney ultrasound. They never did a vaginal ultrasound.. I was I have no doubt I was in labor earlier and it just wasn’t caught. Okay. So I was being pulled over to the ER because it was a beast hospital within a baby’s hospital. The office was attached. And that’s when they started. I got a whole lot of shots to stop labor. I got steroids and was told okay, you need we need to do a series of two steroid shots in case you deliver for this baby we need to get the baby’s lungs here’s what we need to get his lungs developed and delivering it this age only gives us a 50/50 chance of survival. And again, I’m in this whirlwind like what you know, I my four year old, you know, son, you know, steps on my husband at that appointment. We’re all just looking at you like what is going on? So they admit me, and it felt like counting hours at that point. Like I knew there needed to be 12 hours between the two shots at the rate of survival went up if I had gotten a second shot, so literally it felt like counting hours at that point

 

P  and they’re keeping you in the hospital because they can’t turn the lever off. So the shots aren’t working to like the shots which I assume are hormones or something.

 

M I forget the name of them. I got to see the the two that were critical with the two steroid shots. Each case I gave 

 

P: Yeah. Yeah. 

 

M: And then there was a two other shots. They started with one to see that work because that would be less disruptive. And it didn’t and so then they gave me the second one which was pretty disruptive to my system and everything but But thankfully, it worked the labor stopped progressing. 

 

P: Okay, good. 

 

M: So, after a week in the hospital, and it was no longer progressing. They said okay, we will discharge you on bed rest. And so I needed to see my OB every week and that you know, maternal medicine. Well, the contractions never stopped. So I continue having contractions, which was not a big deal. What we needed to watch was if the contractions became more productive, okay, and so, we had to monitor the level of dilation. And level of effacement of the cervix. And we can only do that by going in Well, I had multiple times at that point going back into the hospital getting more series of shots to stop the pregnancy because it’s it would you know, every now and then an uptick and become more active, which was terrifying. I mean, it was terrifying. But there were all these milestones, right? Okay. So 28 weeks Alright, let’s get let’s get to you know, first it was 28 weeks then, you know, like every week was like, Okay, this UPS our chance of survival. This ups chance of survival. Because at that first appointment, given the statistics of how I was a phased in dilated they gave me a 10% likelihood of carrying to term. So I had that in my head. Okay, I have to we have to make sure that everything is taken care of. So here I am on complete bed rest. We have my stepson who lives with us 50% of the time. My husband was working full time. I had to stop working, obviously. And I only moved into this town that we lived in a year prior when we got married. I didn’t know anybody I’m an introvert. So making friends was pretty hard. I was alone. I was alone.

 

P  Yeah, this sounds this this sounds like it literally are piling one thing on top of another on top of another in terms of how difficult this is. Also I’m imagining they’re saying we’re gonna check your cervix once a week and you’re like, okay, but really, how about every day? How about every day like, wait seven days between each check and keep fingers crossed and

 

M  Well, thankfully, at the OB, you know, one time of the week and then the fetal maternal medicine at the other time we did have to appointment now it was only you know, it was only the fetal maternal medicine that did the the ultrasounds and all of that but the OB was checking the heart rate and my you know, all the typical things. 

 

P; Okay, good. Okay, good. 

 

M: So I had to find rides me was just, it was, it was really tough. And again, this was a time when I really wished I had sisters with a mother and

 

P: I’m going to stop my conversation with Melissa here. Mother Daughter relationships can and often are many things as a modern day testament to that fact. When I went to the internet looking for articles on mother daughter relationships, we will finish my sentence with the top searches, which included the words difficult, hard and complex. for most of us. Our mother is our very first attachment of the world. And the loss of that whether it’s to death or estrangement can be profound. I appreciate Melissa sharing her story. And next week, she will also share some insights into how she managed all the challenges she faced without her brother. Thanks for listening. We’ll be back next week with the rest of Melissa’s. story



 

 

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Episode 70SN: Losing your Identity in Motherhood: Marnie’s story

Today’s guest had a number of challenges with the physical aspects of pregnancy–she and her partner had trouble getting pregnant initially, and her third child was born in June of 2020, very much in the heart of covid, which invited it’s own challenges; but what really surprised her was the loss of the person she used to be.  She found motherhood to be both beautiful and completely overwhelming and had to work hard to reestablish her boundaries and her life after kids.  Her experience becomes the motivation for a new company in an effort to help other mom’s navigate this enormous transition a little easier.

To find Marnie’s company Rumbly, click here

Audio Transcript

Paulette: Hi welcome to war stories from the womb

I’m your host paulette kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls

Today’s guest had a number of challenges with the physical aspects of pregnancy–she and her partner had trouble getting pregnant initially, and her third child was born in June of 2020, very much in the heart of covid, which invited it’s own challenges; but what really surprised her was the loss of the person she used to be.  She found motherhood to be both beautiful and completely overwhelming and had to work hard to reestablish her boundaries and her life after kids.  Her experience becomes the motivation for a new company in an effort to help other mom’s navigate this enormous transition a little easier. Let’s get to her inspiring story.

Paulette: All right, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you tell us your name and where you’re from?

Marnie: Yeah. My name is Marnie. I am from Toronto, Canada.

P: Oh, thank you. I was a Greek city right I love Toronto.

M: You know, I I had grown to love it. After I’d gone off to for university and came back I started to really appreciate it. I think I just saw it as an adult and I started it in a different light than I did growing up. So now now I get here.

P: Excellent. That’s a well chosen. Order. And everything. So morning we’re gonna talk about we’re gonna talk about your business which is related to your birth experience. So we’ll get to that and I’m gonna go further back and ask a question about the family team from imagining that influenced kind of what you thought you wanted going into creating a family did you grew up with siblings?

M: I did. I have three sisters. So I’m one of one of four, one of four girls.

P: That’s pretty lucky. And are you all close in age?

M: We are all about three years apart. So fairly close. So we’re similar life stages, I guess growing up.

P: Nice. Where are you? In the lineup?

M: I remember three, oh, and middle child and a lot, a lot of personality traits of that stereotype.

P: I’m also the third of four so i 

M: Oh, wow. That’s amazing. 

P: So growing up, did you think I want kids? I will want kids

M: Yes. 100%. I always wanted kids but it wasn’t my lifelong mission. I just knew when I was ready, it would come so I wasn’t like I had some friends who was just we’re trying to go through the process of going to school and getting there just so they could finding a partner just so they could have children. And for me it was it was a very more selfish journey, I guess of achieving what I wanted to achieve personally before kids came into it but knowing that family is something that I absolutely, absolutely want. Absolutely.

P: Okay, so when you when you were going to get pregnant, what did you think pregnancy would be like?

M: Like Emily’s? I Anna and I have to say that I didn’t. I’m someone who doesn’t really think about much. I kind of just go for it. But I thought I was just something I wanted so badly. I never thought much about it. I just thought it’s gonna be great. It’s just I want the end result. So I think I was just very focused on whatever it is to get me to that point. So I’m gonna get pregnant. I’m gonna grow belly and I’m gonna push baby. And that was kind of all I thought I really think much else about it. But knowing that I’d have this fries at the end, which would be my future children.

P: Yeah, that’s kind of a having talked to many people is kind of a smart way to go into it without very many details already worked out in your head of what it’s going to look like. So was it easy to get pregnant?

M: No, it wasn’t. It was very stressful. But we did and I cannot feel more thankful lucky, fortunate. Happy to have three children.

P: So for the first one, walk us through that one because usually there’s a lot learned on the first one.

M: So I actually had incredibly wood to get pregnant or

P: just the whole walkthrough that one slowly and then you can pick and choose about the other two.

M: It just timing perspective. It just to each one took I would say like a year or two longer than I would have liked. So it was it was a waiting game and of course, the longer you wait, the more frustrating it gets and, you know starts to the process of impacting your relationships, whether it be with your partner, or a lot for me, my friends who were able to get pregnant really easily are starting to build their families out and then that jealousy which again, I never had, because I was never in like a rush to do it. That that really creeped up on me. And then that started impacting I think a lot of my relationships with my friends. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard

P : to look around you it looks so easy, right? Yeah,

M : it’s it’s so easy in it and again, it brings out these these these these character these characteristics in you that you didn’t notice as I was never jealous person, but as I noticed everyone around me and I felt like getting pregnant like this this jealousy type of rage inside me with just kept growing and that was that was really hard and I didn’t like it. It was something I battled but I don’t think it wasn’t something that I could really quiet at the same time. But needless to say we did eventually get pregnant and like I said, I’m so fortunate to have free beautiful, healthy, amazing children today.

P: So let’s let’s talk about getting pregnant the first time did you find out with a home kit? Are you involved with doctors or how does that all go?

M: Yeah, so we took pregnancy tests with all them confirmed it with doctors kind of a very, I guess, linear path after that.

P :But so exciting to get the positive pregnancy test?

M: Oh, like I couldn’t control myself love like tears and joy and my heart racing. I did my chest in with all of them with all of them. It was it. Each one was truly an equal blessing that I felt.

P: And did you guys end up going through? Did you think there was something wrong in that it took that long or were doctors like no, this is what it takes?

M: Yes, but it wasn’t equipped with the education I think to know to really question that. I think today’s Today’s a very different environment. And I think I would have seeked help earlier on. In my process hadn’t had I known that was an option or to actually question these things rather than just kind of internalizing it and keeping it between me and my partner.

P: So it sounds like in part because you’re surrounded by people who are getting pregnant easily. It’s not obvious to you that that this is a medical issue and maybe you should go and talk to a doctor

M: right and you know, and social media wasn’t as strong then and there wasn’t as many conversations around fertility which there’s an infertility which there’s there’s so many more conversations and and companies and and ambassadors and people now speaking out on it. So I think you know, for for kids today or even just generations younger than me, they’re becoming their awareness of of fertility and the entire process and the education behind it is a lot stronger than it was even just for myself about just under a decade ago.

P: Okay, that makes sense. It that is frustrating though, and it is hard if you’re I mean not that it would have been a snap if he’d gone to medical people but that is that’s its own separate ride but it is I can imagine very frustrating if it’s just you and your partner and we can’t figure out what’s going on.

M : Absolutely. You know, and then it’s it’s, it’s always you feel like it’s you would always feel it’s the woman who’s who’s who’s the problem and you know your partner feel would or maybe not always but at least in my situation, I think we both kind of felt like oh, something’s wrong with me because I’m not the one getting pregnant. Right? Versus what we’re starting to learn now is you know, it really does take two people to make a baby and, and nothing that it was or wasn’t but you know, it just, it put a lot of the heavy emotions I think on me throughout that whole process, where a partner just made it more of like an impatient waiting game.

P: Yeah. You know, I interviewed a reproductive endocrinologist and she herself use IVF. And we were talking about if you go the IVF route, which I have no personal experience of so she’s educating me on it. They can look at the embryo immediately and look at it. As it grows from one cell, the T cells to three cells or whatever. And I was saying to her, Do you think there’s going to be a time where we can examine that embryo so meticulously that we can say, Yep, this is going to work. This embryo was perfect. And she said, No, because she’s an even if you know that you still have the uterus, you still have all the moms chemistry. There’s so complicated and there’s so many things going on, which is one thing that makes it hard to identify what’s wrong if something’s wrong, and hard to get pregnant, because it’s just there’s so many variables none of what you control.

M: Yeah. It’s so amazing. It’s so amazing how complex it is. And, you know, this is something from the dawn of time that that humans have done you know, it’s so it’s just amazing to hear all that you know, and how far even just the sciences and that we can’t still predict that kind of like we have a success, right?

P: There’s just so much we don’t know, right in this in this realm that it’s, you know, I don’t know what to somebody agree, I would think it’d be much easier if we could say, oh, it’s Bernie’s fault. Okay, I have no idea right? It’s, anyway, so you get pregnant and the first pregnancy. What’s that one? Like?

M: Amazing, honestly, like, it was, it was just, it was I wanted it in my head perfect. It was. At first the only thing I struggled with was that you know, I couldn’t vote because I’ve wanted it so badly for so long. That I didn’t believe it was real. And then I got incredibly incredibly nauseous in my first trimester. 24/7 and I was like, You know what, this is it. This is great. This is like my, my son and I embrace this because this is telling me that okay, I’m actually pregnant and now as I did that, it was really like textbook. Easy, simple. I felt great the entire time. My water broke two weeks early. I had a vaginal birth and and everything was really it was really great. It was a really easy good pregnancy.

P: That’s awesome. And the one thing I will say about the first trimester is there is this weird dissonance where you’re like so much has changed. And it’s there’s no physical evidence that you can see, unless you’re really sick, in which case you you know, it’s like a confirmation to yourself that something’s

M: happening. It seems like a it’s a very strange, you know, it’s a very strange symptom that like, you don’t want it. But in my case, I really wanted it because I Yeah,

P: yeah. I can totally relate to that. I can totally relate to it after the fact why you would have wanted it but I’m sure when you’re in it. It’s like a little bit miserable. No, I

M: honestly like I was but I was like no, this is good. This is good. I needed it. I needed it because I needed to. I needed to start to feel it. I needed after like that wanting it for so long. I actually did it as strange as that sounds and that was the same and that carried for for my other two following that I would almost wait for and I’m like, please, please bring on that now as you know that like it’s this is real. And it’s you know, because you can’t just look at it test. So but so my first pregnancy it was really it was really great. So, you know, I came into it that this is something I want more than anything and I had a great pregnancy and our family plan like we really wanted three children and you know after one I couldn’t be couldn’t be more love couldn’t couldn’t be more in love. I had a boy and he he was just teaching transform my insurance for my life. And after that my second pregnancy was it was health wise. There were some little like scares but everything turned out okay in the end, so I would say it was a pretty good pregnancy otherwise, my hormones were the only thing that were awful. I truly, I truly had no control over my hormones, which is something I didn’t experience my first pregnancy and like I really didn’t like myself that way

P:. How was that? How did you experience that? Was that when your hormones were right. I was so short tempered.

M: I was yelling all the time. And I was rude. I was I was like the worst version of myself.

P  It sounds like There’s like there were like mood effects.

M : Yeah, yeah, all mood and I really I didn’t feel like myself. Like when I spoke when I talked and how I acted to people acted around people and treated people. And I couldn’t I couldn’t find it. I couldn’t find it. You know, it was one of those that you lie in bed after and you’re just like, who am I? Who am I? But I had no clue what was going on. I didn’t even know pregnancy could call this like I had no previous education that like, I mean, I knew something’s gonna happen, but I didn’t know I didn’t read I didn’t know anything that pregnancy could cause such a shift and change, like my hormones to to, you know, cause these sorts of reactions for me all I knew is that I really for the 910 months or whatever it was really didn’t like myself at all.

P: Did you talk to your doctor about that? Or like, oh, wow, we know how do we know now that it was hormones? Like we’re

M: because there’s there’s higher education? No, I know. I know. I know. I wish I did. I didn’t I It never occurred to me to talk to my doctor. And you know, one of the reasons which we’ll get into later is that it my dad tried to harass me I was I never knew anything was about me. It was all about the baby. So it had nothing to do with how I was doing. It was just weak. I’d go to my go to chat with my doctor and it’s How’s baby how’s the growth and development of baby? I am that’s all it’s nothing more than that. So it was it didn’t I was never asked and I never thought that I should be asking or seeking support or it kind of just like was the way it was in my head. Okay,

P: so let me ask a question about that. So so the context explaining like, what the relationship was with your doctor makes total sense. Now I can understand why you didn’t bring it to your doctor. But you clearly because you’re lying in bed questioning like what’s going on? I don’t feel like myself. You notice that something was different. You just thought I’m different now or like what did you think at the time? 

M : I just kind of bucket it in like well, just the way it is like this is pregnancy like, you know, like, I don’t know, like I’m just like, I don’t know, I really I I don’t have I don’t have a an answer that that I can really like put my finger on it. Like I just I just didn’t I just kind of sucked it up. Like for whatever it didn’t question myself. If that makes sense. I just It just happened. Like I question myself. Until after.

P: Yeah. Because Because after a breaks right, it goes away.

M : Yeah. And you know, I started to feel myself again, you know, it’s like I went through this like really dark hole and a new was happening, but I couldn’t I wasn’t conscious enough to question even myself and to seek help. Or ask if this is normal, or even among friends or anything. I never I never I never got to the point. I just kind of live with it

P : Well, and to be fair to you, you have a toddler and you’re pregnant. So you’re busy, right? You’re focused on other things. Yeah. So do you feel better at the birth or months later or

M: at the birth? Yeah, it was right after the birth. I started Yeah, I just myself, like not not fooling myself. But I think I had more. I should say not myself, but I had more control over the things I said and the way I reacted to things and how I treated people

P : do you reflect on that now and think that was some kind of Peri Partum Depression?

M: I don’t know how to. It was something I don’t intend to put that title like towards it. It was absolutely something. I don’t know what.

P: Yeah, yeah, you’re right. I mean, it sounds it just sounds pretty distinct. Especially since you know, it’s easier to reflect on that where you’re out of it. So I’m glad you got out of it. And how far apart are your kids?

M  Do you say? They’re two years apart? Two years Exactly. Two years and two days.

P  Oh wow…So birthdays in the same season? It sounds like two days apart to the third pregnancy offers something different entirely or

M : their pregnancy was in an exact reflection like first. Okay. Easy, simple, beautiful. I felt amazing. The whole time just kind of went through the process. And it was it was it was great. I had my daughter in June of 2020. So right after the onset of COVID Wow. And that that made it for a little bit. Interesting experience, of course, being that my partner couldn’t be there for he was there for the birth but immediately kicked out of the hospital. Right after I got off that birthing table. And that that was interesting for me because I was really okay with it before. It’s like, you know what, we, this is our third you’ve been there before. I know what it’s like I know it. I know what I’m going into. My pregnancy has been really easy up to this point. And you know, it’s for me to stay in the hospital for 24 hours. You know, I don’t need you I’ll be okay. And when they kicked him out, essentially before moving me to the maternity floor, I the pain me I can cry to this day thinking about it. That separation was horrible. It was horrible. It’s like a very strange, I don’t know, feeling similar to like, loneliness but he is telling it’s just like ripped away from you. And you just you just birth the child together and to not have them be in there, though that was only hard, challenging part of it. But the rest of the pregnancy itself was again it was very lucky that it was very similar to my first and really easy and I was really happy throughout the whole time.

P: That’s great. Wow, that sounds like outside of the birth experience that sounds like you know, the best possible the best possible experience you could have especially given COVID

M: Yeah, it was it was and it’s really interesting like why I’m here today and like what my like new mission in life is and it’s all it’s all a really, I think, like larger reflection on the whole process of everything that was going to while I say I had beautiful pregnancies, there was so much going on, but I’m I’m still struggling to get through that I didn’t realize while I was in it, even even though things were so, so great. And I really felt so great. But there’s there’s a lot that I’m still dealing with now that really started from from my first pregnancy.

P : So let’s talk about that. It sounds it sounds a little bit like what you’re saying is that motherhood is not what you thought it would be.

M: It motherhood. Motherhood is incredible. I absolutely adore my children. I absolutely adore being a mother. What’s hard is is losing yourself in the process. So I knew identify in to most of society, my friends, my family, I identify as mother, but not but not Marnie. So while I gained this absolutely beautiful life, I lost myself. And that’s where I didn’t realize why that was happening until very recently. So my youngest is almost two and it took like, till she was about a year for me to realize this. So this is about six years, six, seven years in this process where I feel like Hey, I I’m I’m not me, I’m I’m just a mom. Like I’m that that’s that’s that’s when people see me that’s how I see myself that’s, you know, how my partner sees me my colleagues, but there’s no money in that. And that that’s, that’s been a big focus of mine, I would say in the past. In the past year and a half to understand that and to change that.

P: So let’s talk about the you before the kid that was a person who was focused on career it sounds like yeah, it’s very clear.

M: Very, so. Very, yeah, just very, I think like, focus all around like very, very self identify, like totally new, but I was really glad to I was I had lots of interesting hobbies. I was definitely very, very career focused, but also very socially focused.

P: And motherhood displaced them both. Absolutely. So what what you’re struggling with is the loss of this former self and trying to figure out how to regain it or how to reshape it or

M: Yeah, I think it’s how to, we don’t need to be just one. I don’t need to be just a mom. I can still be I can identify I can have a lot of identities, you know, and being a mother is one of them. You know, being being a wife as well and a sister as one a friend is one a colleague is one, you know, so I think that people can have multiple identities, but oftentimes what happens is when you become a mom that almost becomes your leading identity. And what you need is to keep your core identity and realize that that is one part and it can be strong and amazing. And it can mean the absolute absolute world to you. But not at the sacrifice of losing like who you are. You as like the person.

P: Yeah, totally agreed. So So where are you on this journey?

M: So you know The first is like, the first step was, I think, just understanding it and and kind of going back in time and where we’re lost myself and trying to re identify who I was and what was important to me and what was I really passionate about enjoyed doing in thinking and, and where I am today is I feel like I’m in a I’m in a good place. I mean, I don’t know how to describe it otherwise, but I’m very conscious of not letting myself or others like my identity as a mother kind of take over everything else. And trying to like when my friends call me like they’re like Hey Mama, and I’m like, no, no, my name is Marni like I really just like the the mama culture. You know people who wear this like and I’m this is just me and I think it’s great for other people but because they’re so proud and they shouldn’t be proud to be mothers but for me, it’s pushing people around me to be like, okay, me first like I am person outside, outside of my children. You know, if you’re gonna give me a gift for my birthday, it doesn’t have to be like a necklace with all my children’s initials. Like, there’s something maybe for me too, as like a small example.

P: So why don’t you tell us about the company that you started?

M : Yeah, so the company’s rumbly and rumley started on this notion that women are not the priority in pregnancy. And they’re seen and treated through culture and our medical system as as merely vessels and the the market is saturated with maternal and baby products and nothing is really focused on the woman and the emotional journey that she’s on. You know, fertility has changed and postpartum has changed yet pregnancy has remained the same. So rumbly is is a brand that is to prioritize women’s health and experience and support them on this emotional journey, not just the physical journey. And it’s really to set them up for better outcomes after baby after baby arrives. At launch from these going to launch with a pregnancy subscription box, where half the items in every box are for the woman you are and the other half are for the mom you’re becoming and there’s three core goals with the subscription box and that’s just spoil and shower mom with gifts and that’s really to help celebrate every month every month is a milestone and and the reason to, to celebrate with items that are focused just on her. It’s also there to help prioritize herself again in pregnancy to help her not lose herself in the process, and then make the transition to motherhood a little less overwhelming because it’s extremely overwhelming. But also a little bit more fun. And again with the ultimate goal of setting her up for a better outcome and the end. So as a brand that I hope that women do see rumbly is more than a subscription box. It’s just a it’s a new way to experience pregnancy and to treat it really it’s as it’s a tool to help her in that journey. And the goal is to share more realness, more love support throughout the entire journeys. That’s when that positive test and then eventually going into her experience after delivery. And the aim to be a source of more truth and emotional support and ultimately women’s biggest cheerleaders

P: That sounds awesome like give us a sense of like what’s in the first month box

M: because women Some women find out a very different times when they’re actually pregnant. Instead of doing monthly the first box is is covers the first trimester. So months 123 in there I have a couple of branded items. So one of them I have a I have a calendar, a custom calendar flip calendar that we created every week it has either prompts or some insights into things that are going on some things to make you smile to make you laugh different things for the week. It’s kind of like a rumbly take on you know any of the apps you get like with the fruits like babies the size of this, it goes a little deeper in that but again like weekly kind of what’s going on and it’s a flip chart and it’s beautifully branded as something that you put on your desk to keep track of it. Of your pregnancy. Another item in there is a AEV have a felt folder and it’s your go to pregnancy organizer I found when I was pregnancy I got tons of papers and products and ultrasound pictures and it’s kind of one folder that you can keep everything in. I was kind of putting things all over the place. There’s a bracelet it’s a gold bangle that has two parts and it’s a beautiful piece of jewelry and it’s to help women just feel good. You know jewelry puts for many women a smile on their face and feel nice and the double hearts very symbolic of you know, you know, have another heart beating inside you so you kind of have two hearts at once. There’s a water bottle to encourage obviously hydration drink a lot. There’s a lip balm, there’s some vegan organic mint gum, there’s a a felt letter board where you can put like for pregnancy announcements or you can track your growth or whatever you want any input some personal like self love or any kind of your own custom messages on the board. And that that rocks up everything in that first box. So there’s seven items in there. And those again, are really kind of being in thought of what’s going on for you just in that first trimester. while also being a little bit more general to women’s experience. During that time. Of course everyone will have a very different first trimester but initially at launch, we’re trying to to appeal to the most common experiences that women have during that time.

P: This is cool, and it’s such a cool idea. It’s interesting to me that that is your experience in Canada because, you know, as someone who lives in the US, I think of Canada as our more rational cousin. So I would have imagined that the experience of being pregnant there would be different and somewhat better. If you’re being you’re in Toronto, like you’re in one of the major cities. So that’s your best shot and having experience with with the medical team where it’s more holistic.

M: Yeah, it’s, you know, it’s it’s very not the case and I think maybe it’s because of our healthcare system. we get to get two ultrasounds, Three reasons It’s a very process. One of the biggest things that every box is so their products and those products to support you in your journey.

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Episode 69SN: One Woman’s Experience with Recurrent Miscarriage: Eileen’s story, Part II

Today we hear the second half of Eileen’s story about her experience with pregnancy. Last week we heard about some of the challenges associated with her miscarriages. But when we left Eileen, she was about to deliver her first baby, having christened the hospital elevator when her water broke on the way up to a birthing room. we’ll pick up her story on the way to the hospital.

You can hear Naomi’s story here

alpha fetoprotein

https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=alpha-fetoprotein-afp-90-P02426

https://americanpregnancy.org/prenatal-testing/alpha-fetoprotein-test/

Audio transcipt

Paulette: Hi, welcome to war stories from the womb. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and a mother of two girls. Today we hear the second half of Eileen story about her experience with pregnancy. Last week we heard about some of the challenges associated with her miscarriages. But when we left Eileen, she’s about to deliver her first baby, having just christened to the hospital elevator, when her water broke on the way up to a birthing Room. We’ll pick up her story on the way to the hospital.

Eileen: So I’m in the backseat of the car and on the other floors and I’m just like, moaning you know, and just like it was really kind of fun, you know? Like it was just like really letting it all hang out. You know,

P: wait, how long a drive is, this?

E:  is are we in for like 20 minutes? No one is it it’s it’s what time is is like 10 or 11 at night in the city. So what was it it was Thanksgiving night so there was like no traffic. So I’m more than we’re going to Lakeshore drive my husband just like flooring it, you know? And then we get to Northwestern and I’m just like, You know what I loved about it was like NUMA to see I was just like, I don’t care, moaning I don’t care, like whatever. So we get to triage and they’re like, You’re nine centimeters.

P: Oh my god. Oh my God.

E: So They put me on the gurney or whatever. We wheel into the elevator.

P: Wait a second only ask the question here. Are you Are you sensing that the waves are getting higher or whatever the whatever the image is,

E: I don’t know what the heck, you know what I mean? Like I don’t know what I was. I was just like, I was like very mammalian. Let’s just say I was very, I was totally my animal body. So then they really into the elevator and my water breaks

and that was kind of like take that!  Myt husband was like: it was like it was a hazmat situation. I was like I don’t care, you know. So like we put me into labor and delivery. And now I’m 10 centimeters. Oh, I saw my shoes on and you know, I’m just like, yeah, the doctor comes in. I mean, she’s like, has a sandwich in her hand. She’s like, Oh my god. They called her down from the  cafeteria and I’m wearing these like silver gym shoes and leg warmers. And she just like, can

we take your shoes off? And I like, I don’t care, you know, like, well, I believe he wanted to deliver cowboy boots last week. So I got

P: that’s so funny.

E: So then I’m pushing, you know, and I’m thinking like, I’m pushing and pushing. And then my jeweler turned to me she goes, I hate to tell you. But you have to push harder. And I was like, oh, okay, you know, because it’s weird. You know, you’re like you think you’re pushing but you’re again, like you’re I was holding back to get to kind of a comfort zone. 

P: Yeah. 

E: So I’ve never given birth before. So what do I know about how hard to push? So then I pushed and pushed in? Yeah, I think I was in there about an hour. I don’t know. It’s all that part’s kind of a blur. But

P: God, talk about waiting at home until the last minute, because well done. That’s extremely German engineering. That’s hard to top that. So when the baby is born, do you know are you hoping they don’t cut the cord and they put the baby on your chest? Or do you have any?

E: they did cut the cord? The cord and then yes, she came right on my chest and we didn’t know the sex either. So we really were expecting a boy and it was a girl. I mean, who cares? Right because I have a baby finally. 

P: Yeah, 

E: like a frickin miracle. Like I finally I get one finally you know so and then she nursed straightaway and all that went pretty easily for me too. And kind of like I had like the hell of getting pregnant and then like, like the reward of a good birth and easy pregnancy and

all that. So 

P: yeah. That is amazing. And it sounds like maybe the fourth trimester was not too trying, because you would have you’d seen it before you had experience. She could breastfeed pretty

well. 

E: You know, my mother said to me, nothing can prepare you for the first six weeks. And I think that was a really wonderful thing to say. And I always say to new moms too, because there does come this shift after six weeks. 

P: Yeah, 

E: you know, absolutely. Like, I don’t think I was more prepared than anybody else other than knowing like this entity will end but

P: but also that freeze gives you some sense that words can’t capture the difficulty or the hardship or the pain or the lack of sleep or the combination of all those things what that will feel like

E: Right. I mean, and I think that was really like liberating. You know, my mom just say like, nothing can prepare you so like, whatever there’s it’s not your fault, or there’s nothing you can do. Yeah, you can set up the crib and you can have the changing table and all of that stuff. You can prepare that way but emotionally and mentally can’t be prepared for that how absorbing and how exhausting and 24/7 It is.

P: Yeah, yeah. Well, good. So that is an amazing story of triumph. The girls are a couple years apart. It sounds like

E: oh, they’re three years apart. Yeah. So then my second daughter, yeah, again, it was never never trying. Right. It was like we never tried we just had sex and kind of let it go. So yeah, that was a huge surprise. I was 44 

P: Yeah. So you were you imagining to have another one or you were just Well, 

E: I was just it was funny because like to my closest friends in the neighborhood. Had we all had kids the same year or first were the same age. And then they were both pregnant. You know, 

P: wow. 

E: Yeah, with their second third like that one’s six years younger was 10 years younger. So they were younger, you know, than I am everybody. So everybody’s younger. With kids this age, but so I just was starting to kind of feel sorry for myself. Like I knew was I felt like it was too much to ask for but I did you know, want a second, of course just for her to have a sibling. But again, it was like a huge surprise a big surprise that I got pregnant with Alice and you know, happy surprise, but that pregnancy was not as easy.

P: So that one you find out because you miss your period. And that’s happy news  when you get the result.

E: Yeah, yeah. Surprising. 

P: And then what happens? 

E: So my first trimester is fine, kind of like the first one not a lot of morning sickness. And so we’re so in the midst of all and I’m thinking about I was listening to Naomi’s your Interview with Neil before. And so she went through that whole situation where her son was born and then her mother father died. Yeah.

P: Okay, so here Eileen is referencing Naomi’s story. That’s episode 51. And she’s talking about how her father died not long after the birth of her son, and its dramatic impact on her.

E: So my husband and I had been through that so like when this like first was born. In November of 06 and then in 08, ah, my mother in law died. So we spent like the first year of Lucille is like my husband’s French, like going back and forth to France, and he’s an only child. So so she died in 08 and then right after that. My father died. My father got sick and died in 09. Yeah, so it was like three months after my father passed away, I found out I was pregnant. So that was kind of cool. You know, like sad. too, because like in the process, we lost two of our 

P: Yeah. 

E: grandparents. So. So we had to go back to France that summer, because my husband was settling his mother’s state. So okay, so you know, I You heard how I had a miscarriage in Ireland. So when I got pregnant with my first, I’m not traveling anywhere when I’m pregnant. Totally staying put. I’m not going anyplace.

P: To give a little context to Eileen is talking about here her miscarriage in Ireland. I’m going to read another short section from her piece on fertility that she published in Toast at this point, she’s 33. And in her first trimester, she’s in Ireland, and her husband is back in the States. She miscarries in the shared bathroom of her b&b In the very early morning. There’s a lot of blood she’s just alerted her parents to the drama unfolding in the bathroom, she writes:  

I heard the paramedic stomp up the stairs. They lifted me off the floor. They swaddled me in maxi pads stacked one on top of the other shiniest move. I had an iPhone that I could unapologetically bleed into this Barbie sized mattress. As they helped me down the stairs the owner of the b&b lent me like gave me a cracker. The paramedics strapped on a gurney and bullied me into the ambulance. My mother jumped in the doors slammed and I watched my father grim faced as we pulled away in that rain speckled square window. I watched him shake his head light sharp in the lenses of his glasses. He ran a hand through his strict with grey black hair was still in his pajamas, flannel pants, leather jacket, overweight T. Then he grew smaller and smaller as the siren began as odd wailing. 

I was so relieved to be lying flat. And yet as I watched those green Irish Hills roll by, I felt again like a failure. My great grandmother in Bandon had birthed 10 children. My grandmother emigrated to Chicago and had 10 children. My mother had nine children, it seemed like to not manage one. The Moody gray clouds, the rocky walls, the abandoned castles, the herds of cows grazing and the lurid grass I watched all of it to the oblong window, I felt an elemental kinship with the landscape. The souls of the famine dead haunting the ditches, the fertile Irish landscape that was keenly linked to starvation, to death, and to ludicrously high birth rates. 

We’ll get back to the second pregnancy now you can find a link to this piece in the show notes.

E: Because Alice was such a surprise we had booked a trip to France for July. Okay, way before I even knew I was pregnant. 

P: Yeah. 

E: So we went to France. worked a lot on getting this state settled. I have a two year old and I’m pregnant. And I’m 44. So toward the end of the trip, all of a sudden, I could not urinate. I couldn’t I wake up the morning and I wouldn’t have to go pee and I was like, well, that’s kind of weird. And then it got worse and worse. And then I couldn’t pee at all. And so like we’re leaving for we’re leaving France and okay so my mother in law had a house on this little island in France. Okay, so this little island off the coast of Brittany is quite idyllic is blah, blah, blah, but healthcare wise, it’s kind of a nightmare. 

P: Yeah. 

E: So we go see this doctor. And this kind of, you know, he’s like, my husband’s like, my wife is in pain. You know, she has my stomach is starting to get big because my bladders full. I’m thinking I’m like, Oh, I’m really gonna show him you know, it’s actually not my uterus is my bladder. And every time like driving the car, everything hurts like nothing hurts like what this hurts. So the doctor is like, oh, mais bien sur, you know, she’s in pain or like, and he pulls out this PDR physicians desk reference from like, at that point, 2009 This is like the 1999 version and he prescribes, so yeah, describes this antibiotic for me. We run it we get it filled in, in France. It’s like a powder that you put in water. 

P; Okay. 

E: Well, that thing made me so sick and leave the next day and I was like, vomiting the whole way home. So I’m not pregnant. I got a two year old to get on. A boat and to get on three trains and then I fly back to Chicago. And I’m sick, and I’m puking and I can’t pee. Release me can pee this may be TMI is when I puke. So anyway, we get back to Chicago and I’m scheduled for my ultrasound. So you know I have to full bladder. 

P: Yeah. yeah, Done. 

E: They’re like your bladder is too full. We can’t see your uterus at all. So they should have like, sent me to the ER and catheterized me right. But they did it another day or two went on. I can like I can’t even tell you like seriously I’d rather go through labor than that pain. So finally we go to er they catheterized me dream you know an ungodly amount for my bladder and then and then we can figure it out. So so like the ER Doc’s are med students and they’re kind of like we think maybe, you know, you’re you’ve got a tipped uterus and that’s blocking your urethra or it’s this or that, you know, and, and then like three days later, I’m back in the ER because I still wasn’t getting another one, you know, so at that point, they put me on a Foley and I’m catherized for now this is what’s weird is unlike safely into my second trimester trimester, but I like you know, I’ve got a fully strapped on my leg. 

P: Yeah, 

E: actually, I’d rather have that than the pain so that goes on for a couple of weeks. But then they’re like can only have a fully in for so long. It’s because of the risk of infection and Eileen, you have to learn to catherize yourself. 

P: Are you kidding? 

E: So my husband and I go to a urologist in here, so learn how to do it. And we’re both you know, it’s just it’s just like a nightmare like it is the hardest thing for a woman to do to herself. Or, you know, if you’re a man, it’s not so hard, but for women, it’s very difficult. So I kind of give up on this whole thing. And so my sister, my older sister, who’s a nurse, we just cannot figure this out. We cannot figure out how to get there. And she said, well just start measuring your pee. Just Just see how much comes out. And if a little bit more comes out every time. You know, that’s a good sign. So I just started measuring it, measuring it measuring and eventually I’m just like back to normal. I don’t know why. They don’t know why. Nobody knows what happened. But I so I go back to the neurologists, like two weeks later and they’re like, how’s it catherizeing going? Like, I kind of stopped you know, and I don’t know if this is another example of that mind over matter kind of thing where I can’t go through this process like or maybe like the uterus

grew. 

P: Yeah. And shifted. Yeah, yeah.

E: In the urethra, whatever. The plumbing. You know, worked itself out. So but Oh, and also what was tough about that pregnancy was you know, I went in for all the alpha feta protein tests and everything and I got irregular results. And so then you wait what to 20 to 22 weeks before they can actually see if there’s anything wrong. 

P: Yeah. 

E: And so my doctor was like, Look, you’re because of your age, your results are skewing against you so don’t take it too hard. You know, just see what happens. So we go for the ultrasound. And my daughter, Allison, she’s just all curled up. She will not and the whole thing that they’re checking for at that point is her chamber formation. And you can see that all four chambers of the harder developing properly, and if they aren’t, then it’s I think they were thinking it was Trisomy 18. 

P: Okay. 

E: And so she just would not show her heart. She was just like this in the in the ultrasound technicians taking longer and longer and longer and I’m getting more and more freaked out, and we’re waiting and they can’t get a read. And so, you know, imagine, you know how the heart your pumping heart gets registered on the ultrasound mines like thump, thump, thump, right? I was just like, oh God, and so then they brought in. Finally the doctor came in. And he was just super chill, very relaxed, kind of nerdy guy and he just was like, she just like it was like a magic wand. Like he just did this thing with the ultrasound and then Alice just opened up and showed her heart and it looks perfect

P: That’s exciting.

E: So that was great, you know, and then after that, it was fine. The pregnancy was fine. But it was it was a rough second trimester. 

E: Yeah, that sounds rough. Good Lord. That does sound like a movie script. You wouldn’t believe right? If you read it, you’d be like, come on. The French doctor. Come on. 

E: The French doctor mais bien sur…, you know, he’s so arrogant. Oh my god. And then you know, this this hot. I mean, it was like I never wanted to like I just wanted to get to a major medical facility. Yeah, yeah, I was so terrified. Well, once we made it to Paris, and I called my doctor at Northwestern, I said, I’m scared I can’t keep any food down. You know, I couldn’t eat anything. And I’m really afraid for the baby. And the doctor was so sweet. She’s just like babies getting exactly what she needs. She’s taken that all from you. 

P: yeah, yeah, Yeah, 

E: it will be the baby will be fine. You’re the one that’s suffering, but the babies know how to get what they need. Out of the mother. So and then I said, Well, how am I gonna get on this eight hour flight without throwing up and she said tiny slips of paper without dehydrating. 

P: yeah, yeah

E: And she’s a tiny sips of water every 10 minutes. And that’s what I did. I could keep that much down, you know, and I just kept doing tiny sips of water and that’s, that’s up the nausea and that can be hydrate, you know, so just like those little, those little nuggets of advice are so precious, you know, like, really helps. So yeah, so the pregnancy got better. 

P: And what was the birth redo of the first one?

E: Even faster. 

P: Wow. 

E: Yeah. So what was weird about Ellis is Selena was born my first was born on her due date. So you know, you think your second birth is gonna be your second is going to be exactly like the first well this reconciling in your mind that like, it’s not. So I my water broke at night, a week before Alex was due and I was like, well, that is so weird. That’s not how it works usually explode in the elevator, you know? So, and again, that was mostly at 1030. At night. I call my Doula we leave her for a few hours labor totally stops. We go about our day. My sister came in took my oldest overnight, you know, because we thought it was so that was like 10 on a Saturday night and then Alice was born at 10 on a Sunday night. It was Super Bowl Sunday. So again, nothing had walked around, spent the day kind of walking, eating napping, and then labor kicked in and around eight at night. And so same time, we might actually know that you’re saying that. And so my Doula had left. She had come and  she had left. And then it was like eight and I said and of course because I’m thinking this is gonna be exactly the same as my first baby. So I called her and I said, and she was she had no car she was she writes bike everywhere. So she was in she was half hour away. And I said, don’t rush. It’s fine. It’s early, you know? Like, don’t don’t, don’t worry about it. And so then the contractions start coming. So my husband starts giving me massages between the contractions, right? This is also like, really a true story. And so he has this drum. So he started kind of drumbing for me. And it was like, it was like the drum and the contraction. All of a sudden, I just had this huge contraction, and I was like, Oh my God, right? Like I’m about to have this baby like, I was like, I’m gonna have a baby. So we were like, I can, I can feel this thing coming, you know? And so, and I have, like, if I honestly call it I was like, if I squat and make is so, so we call the doula and we’re like, Oh, I think she’s actually coming. So she’s like, I’ll meet you at the hospital. Right? So, again, we jump in the car. And we’re going we’re going down Wilson Avenue, my husband is speeding, and I’m like, now at this point, I’m crossing my legs. together to keep from giving birth like I’m holding this baby in we’re like going down Wilson and he’s he’s driving super fast and super bowl sunday is at night not too many people on the road. 

P: Yeah. 

E: And this he started speeding up and then someone starts drag racing with us and we’re like, inching down. It’s a two lanes and we’re not there to guard side by side. Finally, I look at them and I go, I’m about to have a baby, right. Oh, you can pass. So then he’s doing like 65 and a 45. We pull up the like to the to the hospital in the wrong the wrong way on a one way street. I go in there. And they’re like triage and I’m like, um, um…do like you need to go the bathroom. I’m gonna have this baby in the toilet. And sure enough, some find that get in there. And I’m 10 centimeters. 

P: wow

E: I’m 10 centimeters in the oven. This another doctor comes in. She goes, Well, I mean, this is how you’re gonna do it. This is how you got to do it, you know? So then Alice was born pretty quickly. And interestingly, her birth story was she she had her little hand on her cheek put her umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck and her wrist. And so thankfully, because of her fist on her cheek, she didn’t get strangled by the umbilical cord. So that was another piece of luck, right? 

P: Yes. 

E: And all these things.

P: I mean, there’s a lot of lucky things in that both of your kids have picked like national holidays so that you don’t have to like you don’t have to mess with the traffic getting to the hospital.

E: I mean, I probably could have had a home birth with the second you know, but I was too nervous to do that. I’d had some friends who’d had some pretty rough experiences with home births. And given my own history, I just wonder is that 

P: so that’s amazing. Yeah, so that’s easy, too. And that fourth trimester was probably a little easier because you knew what to expect.

E: Yeah, especially the birds do like I totally knew what to expect. So yeah, so that was good. You know, it all worked out. But it was a long journey, right.

P: It was a long journey. And it sounds like you’re did you write the essay and toast before you had the kids or where does that fall in line? 

E: So after? Yeah, so like I wrote it? I don’t know. I think it was published in 2015 or 16 and Alice’s point in 2010. So

P: so you had more time to process that from a different perspective.

E: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It’s weird because I feel like birth stories and fertility stories and pregnancy stories. You know, there’s so many different iterations of how it goes you know, there’s you got those women who get pregnant right away. Super easy, and they’re like, it’s like, their lives change so fast. 

P: Yeah. Yeah. 

E: You know, they were the kinds of people that I envy back in the day, you know, but at the same time, it’s like, they didn’t really like there. They didn’t have time to, you know, really get how precious it is, in a sense, like, what a privilege. 

P: Yeah,

E:  motherhood is.

P: Yeah, if it comes easily, right, that lesson is not as obvious.

E: Yeah, and I think I think it’s you know, I think once you go through all everything that I went through, then like, even when it’s really tough being a mother, you’re I was always so like, oh my god, I can’t believe I get to be one. 

P: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that totally makes sense. I have a similar I have a similar awe about it. And I also have an awe of about the whole process. Just because it’s so many things have to fall in place. It’s just the right time and there’s got to be luck. There’s got to be all kinds of things, none of which you control everything which you imagine you control. Right. There’s just a lot. A lot going on that if you are in a position where things don’t come easily, you can see all those thresholds.

E: And the weird thing about pregnancy and motherhood in miscarriage is you hear it all the time. It’s it’s such a common thing, right? We all have these experiences in our lives like you, you know, you went to graduate school, the University of Chicago like that is not common, right. But becoming a mother’s is really common. Like so many people go through that. And yet it’s so extraordinary. 

P: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do think I was terrified. of birth. And I kept telling myself, you know, how many hundreds of millions of people have done this, right? This is a doable thing. But in your own, on your own journey in your own life in your own experience. It just it takes on something different, right. It is a totally different animal.

E: Right, right. And and, you know, that’s why like, there were a lot of things for me that I really, when it came to birth, you know, I was reading a lot about Ina May Garter, you know, like, it’s like, this is a natural process that women have been doing forever and I really did not want to turn it over. You know, the power of that over in a way but we haven’t jokes to my family because like certain of us have very high thresholds for pain and other people in my family has super low press thresholds. I happen to be a high threshold person. So like, I really, yeah, yeah, I mean, like, I know that I could impose because my experience of miscarriage too, I was just like, okay, I can I can deal with this pain. I can manage this pain, but I know that that’s not the same for every woman, right? I mean, like, many women are just like, give me that epidural, you know, bring on the drugs. But yeah,

I don’t blame that. You know. It’s fine. Like, I don’t want to be like, you have to do it my way, kind of mother, because that’s a trap that women get into against each other, right? Yeah, the kids are how you get pregnant or how you give birth or is it a season like all of those judgment things, and ranking of what’s most superior is really toxic. 

P: Yeah, I totally agree. In fact, I saw some maybe it was a New York Times headline this morning about the baby food shortage which you know, my husband and I discussed like, oh my god, it’s so scary. What would you do a week I breastfeed at all so we that definitely would have been us. And you know, the New York Times article said something like people are telling them to just breastfeed

E:  it’s too late. 

P: Like you have no people can’t force feed like it just there’s a million things that go into that. Right. So to suggest just breastfeed is doesn’t make any sense, right? There’s no I mean, in

a lot of women, like my niece has had a six month old Well, she can’t suddenly start breastfeeding months in late, you know, like, so that I know it’s so frightening for those women I feel really bad about that must be

so scary. 

E: Yeah, is I’m feeling scared. And I my youngest ones 18. So I can only imagine. I can only imagine what they’re going through. I’m stressed on their behalf. 

P: Well, thank you so much for coming and sharing your story. It’s an amazing story and I will link to your essay. Thank you toast and if there’s anything else you want to join to them and your website or anything else.

E: I do have a website, eileenfavorite.com I mean favorite.com It’s got other content. I have a novel called the heroines that came out when I was actually so when I was pregnant with my first which is kind of cool. Wow. And yes, so I’m a professor and there’s all kinds of things on that website. They’re not necessarily about parenting, but other creative things I do.

P: That sounds awesome. All right. Well, I’ll link that. 

E: Thank you. Thanks for

giving me the opportunity to speak with you. It was really fun time.

P: Thanks again to Eileen for sharing her story. I think reflecting on everything that’s happened over the course of the 10 years. She and her partner were interested and are ultimately not directly interested in having kids. It’s a very unique personal set of experiences. And as she said last week, each person processes miscarriage differently. And we as a culture should make space for all these differences and hold them gently. Thanks for listening. We’ll be back next week with another inspiring story.

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Episode 68SN: One Woman’s Experience with Recurrent Miscarriage: Eileen’s Story, Part I

 In today’s episode, my guests challenge is with miscarriage. She has two miscarriages both at the end of the first trimester, and then uses IVF (despite the fact that getting pregnant isn’t the issue)…and get’s pregnant, and has a miscarriage….eventually she becomes the mother of two girls, but that’s later in the story. She is a writer, and in one of her pieces about this topic  called On Fertility in Toast magazine she writes: When you give birth, you do it with others. When you miscarry, you do it alone. Even if doctors and nurses are present, numbing you, holding your hand, giving gentle instructions, they’re not with you, because what’s happening is both too awful, and too common, to be shared. Nobody wants co-ownership of the failed human. Many don’t even consider it human.

Even if your father is driving you to the hospital in his buttery yellow Lincoln, or even if your mother is riding in the ambulance with you, or even if you husband and sister are outside the procedure room waiting, you’re still alone. There was a person/being/cluster of cells that was alive inside you, and now it’s not. Times three. It happened when I was 31, 33, and 38.

I’ll stop reading there and you can hear my guest describe her experience…our conversation is broken into two parts. In this first part I also spoke with a doctor whose specialty is recurrent miscarriage and he shares insights from his own research and experience.

To find Eileen’s writing in The Toast, go here

To find Dr. Kutteh’s paper on a new algorithm for recurrent miscarriage, go here

Audio Transcript

Paulette: Hi welcome to war stories from the womb. I’m your host Paulette kamenecka. Im an economist and a writer and the mother of two girls.  In today’s episode, my guests challenge is with miscarriage. She has two miscarriages both at the end of the first trimester, and then uses IVF (despite the fact that getting pregnant isn’t the issue)…and get’s pregnant, and has a miscarriage….eventually she becomes the mother of two girls, but that’s later in the story. She is a writer, and in one of her pieces about this topic called On Fertility in Toast magazine she writes: 

When you give birth, you do it with others. When you miscarry, you do it alone. Even if doctors and nurses are present, numbing you, holding your hand, giving gentle instructions, they’re not with you, because what’s happening is both too awful, and too common, to be shared. Nobody wants co-ownership of the failed human. Many don’t even consider it human.

Even if your father is driving you to the hospital in his buttery yellow Lincoln, or even if your mother is riding in the ambulance with you, or even if you husband and sister are outside the procedure room waiting, you’re still alone. There was a person/being/cluster of cells that was alive inside you, and now it’s not. Times three. It happened when I was 31, 33, and 38.

I’ll stop reading there and you can hear my guest describe her experience…our conversation is broken into two parts. In this first part I also spoke with a doctor whose specialty is recurrent miscarriage and he shares insights from his own research and experience.

Let’s get to this inspiring story…

P: Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?

Eileen: My name is Eileen favorite. And I’m from Chicago, Illinois.

P: Nice. Excellent. So Eileen, we’re going to talk about the family that you have created. But sometimes the family you’ve created is a reflection in some ways of the family you came from. So I’m just wondering, did you grow up with siblings? Did you know you wanted to have a family what what’s your background like in those in those respects?

E: I grew up with siblings. I grew up with eight siblings. Wow. I I’m the number eight of nine. So yes, I always anticipated that I would have children and I have two girls.

P: Wow, that’s amazing. eight of nine is amazing. So imagining you all are pretty close in age.

E: Yes. My mother had the first four in four years. And then I don’t know, after that every two years so there were nine of us born in 13 years. 

P: God that’s like an amazing accomplishment to be to be honest. Wow. So we all know that’s hard work.

E: Right. So she my mother was 24 when she had her first and 37 when she had her last.

P: Wow. Okay, so that led to you thinking you definitely wanted the family. Did you want a large family? 

E: No. 

P: Okay. Okay. Probably also related right to your experience

E: more just you know, the financial realities of a huge family definitely shifted over time. You know, it was much everything was a little bit cheaper when my parents were coming up right homeownership education, all that good stuff. So I knew that for me that would not be in the game in the cards.

P: So let’s talk about your family then. Before you got pregnant. What did you imagine that would be like?

E: Well, so I have five sisters. So I pretty much watched all my sisters have babies from the time I was 13. I had my first nephew Wow. So I was always around kids, little kids being kids, you know, always so I don’t feel like I had any kind of illusions about it. Having been an adult so young, and then having much my sisters have babies and see their struggles and see their happiness. 

P: And so you didn’t imagine that you weren’t necessarily walking into some easy process.

E: No, no. No, I knew what it was like my sister had her first baby when she was 21. So you know, she was young. She got married young, she was you know, I was so I was babysitting at 14, you know, and she and her husband wanted to go out and parties, you know, so like, I was watching pretty young babies from a young age.

P: Wow, that’s good training, actually. 

E: Yeah, 

P: so was it easy to get pregnant the first time well,

E: so you know, my story is that it took me 10 years of infertility and miscarriages before I had a baby. So my my first pregnancy was like, Hey, let’s try to get pregnant and yeah, we got pregnant right away, but then I miscarried. So that was when I was 31. And then it was two years before I got pregnant again, at 33. And then I miscarried again, and then I didn’t get it.

P: Wait, let me let me stop you right there for a second. So at this point, then now what’s our view? I have one miscarriage and for the next pregnancy, I was, you know, on DEF CON two for the whole thing. Yeah, I’m wondering if you took it the same way or you thought this is a process and this is how it works?

E: Oh, no, they were. They were devastating for me. The miscarriages were really hard and really unexpected too because as you can hear I come from this very fertile background. My mother had nine children. She was one of 10 herself. Wow. And my grandmother was an Irish immigrant. And she came from like a family of 10 in Ireland, you know, so like I come from this long line of hyper fertile women. Yeah, so I never expected it to be a problem for me.

P: I brought this question about genetics and fertility to an expert.Today, we’re lucky to have Dr. William Kutteh. On the show. He’s the director of fertility associates of Memphis and board certified and reproductive endocrinology and infertility. Thanks so much for coming on the show. 

Dr. Kutteh: Thank you. 

P: Before we get into the specifics, Eileen’s mother and grandmother are both from really large families like 10 kids. I mean, herself is one of eight kids. And she was saying that she expected because she comes from what she described as a hyper fertile line that she would have kids easily wondering, is is a hyper fertilized thing or is fertility has no basis in genetics or how do we think about that?

Dr. Kutteh: That’s an interesting that’s an interesting point. Many people think that what are super fertile meaning that their problem is not they can get pregnant if they can easily get pregnant.

Issues then the study is what to do different about her family, and in many cases was this concept of uterine receptivity, how receptive is the embryo and neuter and selectivity. So in a normal, fertile woman who’s not having miscarriages?  She has a selection mechanism. In the years that allows computers to discriminate between the normal embryos that may be genetically abnormal. And if the embryos genetically abnormal in individual, normal reproductive potential, like her mother, then in most cases, we believe that that abnormal embryo never attached. She would not get pregnant. And next month, maybe a good embryo come along, she would get pregnant. In case of some women, I don’t know about this. Because this is all research and there’s not a test. I can draw blood or do a sample or whatever. We think that something about that selective mechanism of the uterus to discriminate between an abnormal and a normal embryo is altered in a way that uterus no longer is capable of doing a good job of saying is this going to be a medically normal, or is this going to be an abnormal embryo? And it can’t discern. So, you know, reproduction is complicated. There’s a lot of waste along the way. There’s a lot of duplicity. There’s a lot of excess on your test sperm A man may have millions and millions of sperm. Thanks for one fertilized the same thing, women that have hundreds of 1000s of eggs at birth, and they may have two three or four children typically. So the selectivity years in this individual that male say it was super fertile. It can grab the embryo, its ability to select out that embryo that’s normal, abnormal, is weak or under functioning or not not working well. And therefore the uterus holds on the embryos that normally would never attached. There’s another screening mechanism in a woman’s reproductive system that looks at that India when it’s a quarter of an inch and a half an inch in size 6,7,8,9 weeks for most miscarriages curve, and somehow we don’t understand somehow says this one, there’s this genetic problem or that genetic problem. And therefore, we’re going to shut down all maternal support to this particular pregnancy and we call that a mystery. So this is an individual’s this may be what was going on. She’s still able to produce eggs, they’re still able to get pregnant they’re still able to get to the uterus and attach and start knowing that that selective mechanism, which embryo implants in which, somehow

  

Eileen: so yeah, so it was really tough after the first one, and then, you know, I kind of got into that, you know, I think women go through infertility, you go through this sort of like, let’s try to get pregnant and then all the kind of rigmarole of like sex on timing and temperatures and your legs up the wall and all of that stuff. And after a while, that would get really a strain, you know, on the marriage. So, I would we would sort of go through like, let’s just stop trying, you know, with scare quotes, stop trying, you know, because it was sort of like even a verb itself is an action, that it has an underlying sort of feeling of desperation about it. And so you kind of let it go and then I got pregnant again, in the middle of graduate school, but how, and then I miscarried again. So at that point, I was, yeah, I was 33. In the summer between my MFA. I’d gotten one year down and I was going into my second year, and then I miscarried over the summer and then it was really five years before I got pregnant again.

P: So after the second one, do doctors say okay, if you’ve had two miscarriages, we need to look at X, Y, and Z.

E: Nope. It’s all falls under that. This is so common, and it happens to lots of women and the percentages whatever I think the percentages are like 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. So and I didn’t have tests to see, you know, the chromosomal test. Well, that to say my second miscarriage happened in Ireland. So you know, it was I was on vacation, so like it really wasn’t even discussed the idea of like doing a chromosome test.

P: One thing about Eileen’s case is that after she experienced her second miscarriage, there weren’t any tests run to determine what was the issue, and she was basically told that it’s common to miscarry. What’s the standard of care for recurrent miscarriage now?

Dr. Kutteh: The last dozen years or so there’s been a emphasis particularly from arboreta knowledge, that when a woman has an experience, whether she passes, whether she has medically induced passes or that tissue surgically collected, that it should be sent for genetic testing and the reason is not necessarily that he’s going to change any medical treatment that we do. It changes the way we think about that history. And hopefully the way that that individual patient or her partner, think about that mystery,

P: It makes sense to get tested in one of your papers you described all the things that can contribute to miscarriage. Does the testing involve the genetic testing of the products of the miscarriage or it’s everything

Dr. Kutteh: no society has been recommending that I have heard that the American Society of Reproductive Medicine was revising their guidelines. And in medicine, as I said, it may take eight to 10 years before changes, impact appear. To be is reasonable care for patients, like one of the factors also showed a study that prospective study on your 100 patients where we did all the guideline test and we did the test on the miscarriage. We tried to figure out what’s the most cost effective and beneficial and what will be less than those to answer. And when you add that medic question on the miscarriage to the standard, recommended gobbling effect now, we can give an answer to about 90% of people. There’s no more so sorry that bad luck kind of thing. We don’t understand what’s going on. You can give them a pretty good idea of what’s happened. Then we always can fix it, but at least we can say what it is and what our chances are in the future.

Eileen: Then five years went by without getting pregnant again. And I decided to try fertility treatments. So I went through I went through a round of IVF I got pregnant and then I miscarried again.

P: So did the miscarriages happen at the same point?

E: Pretty much yeah, pretty much like around nine somewhere between the nine to 11 weeks. Point always in the first trimester, which tends to be a chromosomal issue, right? Okay. So on this, I’m the third one. I said, Look, I want to cry, I want to test you know, I want to see what went wrong. And so sure enough, there was it was Trisomy 16. So there was an extra chromosome or allele or whatever. So that was sort of comforting. Knowing that’s what it was because I think for a lot of women when you have this really, you know, there’s a lot of like self blame like what did I do wrong? Did I drink coffee? Did I you know, have too much stress did that you know like and then you realize like that really helped me realize like, the problem happened at conception. Really, really small kind of microscopic level when I have absolutely no control and and that that sort of really helped.

P: Yeah, I think the truth of it is, for the most part, we don’t have much control at all over any of the pregnancy. So the idea that it’s your fault, I think is based on this belief that I could have done something different because I control this process in my body when really you’re not controlling any of it.

E: Right. Oh, you know, and it was really funny because when I got pregnant, again to talk a little bit about space between so I had I had another miscarriage I was 38 and I think by the time I turned 14, I was like ready to accept, like, I’m not going to be a mother. You know, like, this is not in the cards for me. I made my peace with that. And I think it’s really I want to be really careful when I talk about something like that because I feel like a lot of women who mystery get told you just need to relax. You just ate and then you get pregnant and again, this idea of control around but also like us sort of faulting the mother for being too anxious or something to get pregnant. You know, like

P: It’s you It’s your anxiety. That’s right. Yeah, yeah. 

E: So I really want to I really want to like express that like I did deep. But I don’t want to prescribe that path toward fertility. Because I think that’s really a dangerous thing to say to any woman. And like I don’t want anyone to like say that but I can say that, like in myself. I had reconciled it. You know, it was 10 years. Yeah, years of trying to get pregnant. I was like, I’m kind of done with this thing that’s just not working.

P: And in the end, the whole process is stressful. We had a lot of trouble getting pregnant and I remember like once the sex becomes work yeah, you’ve stripped away kind of the fun, and it’s now it’s just stressful. You’re in it for an outcome. And that’s, that kind of takes some of the joy out of it for sure.

E: Right. And so like I just, I’m a yogi, so I’ve been practicing yoga for a long time. And so like I really I really saw that like mind body connection. And I really believe in that mind body connection. At the same time. I don’t want to say that like it’s something you can just will yourself to have, like it has to be a deep conversion within the self. And no one should tell anybody else. Just that though, you know, but I will say that I did deeply let go when I turned 40 And I was just like, that’s okay, I’m gonna be able to do other things with my life, yada yada. And that’s when I got pregnant. What was really interesting was during that first trimester so I’m I’m a I’m a professor, so I was teaching one night. I was you know, very early in the pregnancy, maybe about 1011 weeks, and I went to the bathroom on the break, and I was bleeding. And I was like, Okay, I’ll tell you what’s also funny. At the same time, my sister was pregnant. My sister was two years older than I am. And so she was she was even older than I was. She was 42. I was 40. It was pretty much going through and she was six months pregnant. And when I told her that I was pregnant, I said okay, let’s just get ready because I’m gonna miscarry when you have your baby. So let’s just, let’s just get ready for that, you know? Like, let’s just, she was like, whatever you need to say, sister, you know, whatever. You know, whatever. Whatever makes you feel like yep. So let’s just say that’s going to happen. And so I called her that night and I said, I’m spotting. And she was like, okay, and I said, this is totally out of my hands. Either there’s the right number of chromosomes, or there is right yeah, 

P: yeah. 

E: And, and I really, I really believed that finally, you know, I really believe like, this is completely out of my hands. If this is going wrong. It’s nothing I did. It happened 11 weeks ago with sperm egg. And that’s all we have to do. So I went the next morning, I went to see my doctor, and we are going to start crying. And he gives me the old ultrasound wand, you know, because I’ve had been through so many, you know, three really horrible ultrasound, and he was like, we’ve got a heartbeat and I could not believe it. You know, I was like, and he goes if you’ve got a heartbeat that’s strong at this point. That’s probably going to work.

P: Wow. Oh my god. One thing I want to say about the miscarriages which are super painful, kind of amazing that your body can distinguish what’s going on chemistry is saying, Oh, this this sperm combination will not develop into a person. Yeah. And that in itself is like unbelievably cool wisdom that you can’t control.

E: No, you can’t control it. You know,

P: I mean, when I miscarried, I was doing a lot of computer programming at the time. And so that’s the way I thought of it is like, Oh, my body has figured out that this is not going to go to some endpoint. So it’s and that to me was a little bit comforting because I was doing this programming and you know, you get this error, you know, obnoxious beep and error message every time your code wasn’t working. I love it. And so, like that helped me get through to say, you know, this is kind of like

E: you’re articulating something. I think that’s really important for people to remember is that every room is going to encounter this experience in a different way. And they’re going to find comfort in all these different ways. And some people they might find it like, well, it was God’s will or it might be something else, you know, might be well, data error. Yeah, like not the right chromosome number, you know, whatever. But like we have to make space for like, all the different responses and like give voice to them. Yeah, because the culture hates to talk about miscarriage and, and people said the wrong thing to me because they didn’t know what to say. 

P: Yeah, yeah. I think people don’t know what to do with those sad feelings, right? Or how to talk about loss and for sure, I was upset and disappointed but in our you know, singular journey was a big deal to have gotten pregnant. And so we kind of held on to that.

E: Yeah, and I think for me, it was kind of weird to because I had didn’t have any problem getting pregnant. Pregnant, so I resisted, like fertility treatments for a long time because of that. And then when I turned 38 I was like, Alright, I better at least try this IVF because I don’t want to look back and regret it. Yeah. And then after I miscarried after one IVF round, which is horrible. I think I think that was worse, you know, and I mean, because you go through all the needles in the shots and that’s and all this stuff and like the fertility doctor was just like rooting for me, you know? And then, and then I went through another round, and I didn’t get pregnant. And I think that maybe contributed to just be like, okay, you know what I mean? Like, I think I in my head, I said, Look, I’d rather never be pregnant again. Then go through another miscarriage.

P: Yeah, it’s just it’s so much more complicated than we are willing to admit or thinking.

E: I was speaking with a friend of mine who just had a miscarriage a couple of months ago, and she was just like, it’s really hard to get pregnant. You know, she’s like, there’s only like this really small window every month. You know, the timing has to be just perfect. Yeah. Like, I know, it is really small when you start breaking it down and trying. 

P: Yeah, it’s just, it’s kind of a miracle that it even happens, you know, around 

E: Yep, I agree. Luck has such a huge it’s such a huge player in the whole process. Yeah, I feel Yeah, I mean, that was kind of what I came down to in the end. I just sort of went you know, I’ve just, I just had bad luck. Like, you know, like, up until that point, I was like, I’m just on the bad side of the of the odds. Yeah, yeah. Like bearing the brunt of the odds for all the women you know, like because I’m very you know, like, I’m, I’m like, oh, for three and, you know, that’s, I’m not gonna do the math right. But you’re, you know, I’m saying represent our miscarriages that I’m miscarrying more, carry my share. 

P: So how common would you say do we have real statistics on how common miscarriages

Dr. Kutteh: recurrent miscarriage?  Yes. So it’s a hard study to do because you need to, if you asked me how many patients every year we did a study when I was in Dallas at Parkland Hospital, it’s a non referred population. patient demographics are roughly a third Hispanic, Caucasian, a third African American, and at that time, there were 15 or 16,000 deliveries performed in that hospital every year. Now it’s and went through the database and found how many women had been diagnosed with recurrent miscarriage when I presented the hospital as about 1.5%. Now, that has to be an underestimate because everybody might not come back to that same facility for indigent patients that were saved for that hospital because as I say, less than baseline, if you look at all the other types of studies and literature is probably two three or 4% of all reproductive age couples will experience frequent mistakes your patient for example,  

her pregnancies and standard losses. This is the same with the same, some people said in a baby and we were supposed to see this and say this is normal. 

P: And you pass the 10 week mark in a heartbeat and then what’s our pregnancy like?

E: It was great. I had a really easy pregnancy. I don’t have any I mean, no, not really very little sickness. No, I never. I never had any sickness or nausea, fatigue, you know, no. Weight gain, no, nothing. It was perfect.

P: What were you imagining for the birth?

E: My second miscarriage was in Ireland. And so if you read the essay that I wrote about fertility, which was The Toast, it kind of goes into the blow by blow of that miscarriage but it was pretty traumatic. And I went into labor, basically a mini labor that’s what they call it in Ireland, mini labor, where I was just doing the abortion. It was it was brutal. I’m a writer. So like, as I was going through that, I told myself, I’m going to remember how steals and I remember that it was like, I’d have this like, pounding in my back and then just you know, a flood of tissue. And you know, and so, when I went into birth, right labor, so two things I went through initial childbirth classes and the regular childbirth class, and because I had to write so I gave birth at Northwestern British Women’s Hospital at Northwestern. And so before you could do natural childbirth class, you had to do traditional childbirth class. So I was in that and the whole traditional childbirth class was about epidurals. Yeah. And when you get home and wet, you know, and Pitocin and now it’s kind of like, okay, wait a second. You’re telling me that when I get an epidural, I can’t eat. I can’t walk around, and I won’t feel my leg. I’m thinking, how am I supposed to give birth if I can’t feel my legs? Yeah, I can’t feel my body below the waist. How do you possibly give birth so that was my logic. I know. And I know some women love epidurals so like No, no judgement, but like in my logical Virgo brain, I was like, that doesn’t make any sense. Right? So then I did the National Child Birth class. And they said, the best thing you can do is come to the hospital as late as possible. So and the other thing that I did through my yoga studio was I found an incredible doula. So when I went into labor, I called my Doula whose name is story. And, you know, she came to the house and she was also a massage therapist. So like for every contraction, I got a massage.

P: That’s awesome.

E: So it’s just like in what I was noticing it was that stab in the back feeling that I knew. Yeah. That I had already survived. Yeah. And in my brain, I’m thinking I can get that stab in the back and actually get a baby out of this. No problem. Yeah, you know, so I think like for me, compared to most women going into labor there was that pain fear factor was not as strong because I had been through that other experience with the kind of the catastrophic result of no baby. So I just really migraine I was just like, You know what I can I can take any of this if I get to be at the end. So story came and it was like, Okay, I think we’re, I’m writing down the, you know, the differences, the timing of the contractions, how many how many minutes? How many, you know, and I’m like, I think I’m ready to go to the hospital. I think I’m ready to go and she’s like we’re like up all night and she was ready to just go lie down on the bed for a little while. So she knew like because my my contractions were like kind of all over. They had hit a certain rapidity and so it’s now Thanksgiving morning, you know, Thursday morning at five. Dory and my husband I were off lying on the queen size bed and my labor completely stops, just stops. And so she’s like, okay, you know, I’m gonna go home call me if it starts up again. So she’s like, just walk around and just wait, you know, so I was ready to go the hospital around five in the morning on November 23. And then she talked me out of it. She really talked me out of it, which was great. And so then the whole rest of the next day, I just kind of hung out, walked around, but I didn’t want to go to Thanksgiving dinner. at my mom’s house. I just found had that whole like, feeling that 

P: Yeah, yeah. 

E: And then around eight o’clock that night, the contraction started again. You know, pretty rapid. I called Dory came and basically labored in my living room with her for, I don’t know, maybe three hours, so does your For, I don’t know, maybe three hours. 

P: So does your water break at this point or no water? 

E: Because that’s funny. So, so, so she’s giving me massages. And in she said to me this amazing thing she said, Okay, they know what he’s visualizing right now, like when you’re in when you’re when the contractions are coming in. So I used to live in Southern California, so I was like, Oh, I’m imagining like, you know, diving under the wave, right? You know, I like the waves coming in. So I’m like in my mind of a contraction, just dive in under the way and she said, I hate to tell you this. But in order for your labor to advance you have to stop diving under the wave. You have to let the wave come through you. And I was like, Oh, no. And so that whole idea of the mind body connection told me that like, I was actually keeping myself from progressing. Yeah, my brain was like, I was saving myself. I was keeping my cervix from opening through my own like Jedi mind tricks. So but the way she put it was like, it just I got it, you know, and so then the next contractions that came I didn’t die, you know, and I sort of like let that power come through, you know, and so what’s the what’s the visual now are you getting hit by the wave? Was really felt like the power went came up from below the earth and like, straight through me, like straight up my middle and like, open my cervix, you know, and she enjoys it. I’ve never seen anybody turn labor around that fast. It’s amazing. I know. It’s super amazing. So next thing, you know, and she’s like, Oh, we better get to the hospital right? Because like I

So, I’m in the backseat of the car and on all fours and I’m just like, moaning you know, just like it was really kind of fun. You know? Like, it was just like really letting it all hang out. You know how long a drive is, is are we in for like, 20 minutes? No one is it it’s in. It’s like 10 or 11 at night in the city. So it was Thanksgiving night, so there was like, no traffic. So I’m moaning. We’re going down Lakeshore drive my husband just like flooring it, and then we get to Northwestern. And I’m just like, You know what I loved about it was like, I had no modesty. I was just like, I don’t care moanin I don’t care like whatever. And so we get to triage and they’re like, You’re nine centimeters. 

P: Oh my god. Oh my god. 

E: So they put me on the gurney or whatever. We really into the elevator. Wait, let me ask you a question here. Are you Are you sensing that the waves are getting higher or whatever the whatever the image is, I don’t know what the heck, you know what I mean? Like, I don’t know what it was. I was just like, I was like very mammalian. Let’s just say it was very. I was totally my animal body. So then they really into the elevator and my water breaks  all over, and I was like Take That!

P:  I’m going to end this episode right here, with Eileen very much in labor, with her husband newly surrounded by amniotic fluid. Next Friday the 21st we’ll air the rest of our conversation. 

It’s impossible to listen to Eileen’s story and Dr. Kutteh’s experience and not be awed by the complexity of the project of growing another person. One other statistic that I wanted to add from Dr. Kutteh’s 2020 paper in Current Opinion in Obstetrics and Gynecology that blew me away: and I quote It is appropriate to remember that human reproduc- tion is an extremely inefficient process. Approxi- mately 70% of human conceptions never achieve viability, and nearly 50% spontaneously fade before ever being noticed [21,22]. Spontaneous miscarriage is ultimately the most common complication of pregnancy.

thanks for listening

we’ll be back next week with the rest of Eileen’s story.