Episode 53 SN: Surprised by Preeclampsia: Jess’s Story
Today’s guest did not anticipate that pregnancy would offer a totally smooth ride to parenthood, but the ride she did encounter included a number of experiences that were nowhere near her radar. Managing a lot of challenging conditions like preeclampsia, and post partum anxiety had significant effects on her: first it encouraged her to reimagine what her family would look like and to find contentment in this family even though it wasn’t what she originally pictured; it made her really engage in caring for herself, to focus on both her mental and physical health; and lastly, this experience made her feel grateful for the life she has now.
Find Jess’s podcast, Only You Podcast
Patent Ductus Arteriosus
Audio Transcript:
Paulette: Hi welcome to War Stories from the Womb. I’m your host Paulette Kamenecka. I’m an economist and a writer and the mother of two girls.
Today’s guest did not anticipate that pregnancy would offer a totally smooth ride to parenthood, but the ride she did encounter included a number of experiences that were nowhere near her radar. Managing a lot of challenging conditions like preeclampsia, and post partum anxiety had significant effects on her: first it encouraged her to reimagine what her family would look like and to find contentment in this family even though it wasn’t what she originally pictured; it made her really engage in caring for herself, to focus on both her mental and physical health; and lastly, this experience made her feel grateful for the life she has now
Let’s get to her inspiring story.
P: HI thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you tell us your name and where you’re from?
Jessica: Absolutely. My name is Jessica Meyer. I’m from the Seattle area. And I host only you a one and done podcast with my husband. Cool. Wow.
P: So I’m gonna get to ask it sounds like you have one child.
J: I sure do.
P: So before you had this child, I imagine you had some idea about what pregnancy would be like. What did you think it would be like?
J: I thought I would be anxious during pregnancy. I definitely was aware of that. I’ve struggled with anxiety my whole life, but I also kind of had this sense of confidence. Like, this is what my body’s supposed to do. I’m going to be able to roll with it. You know, whatever comes my way. I had this intuition. I think somewhere that it was not going to be the easiest pregnancy.
P: Okay, that seems much more attuned to how complicated the process really is.than most of us are on the entrance, but I’m interested to hear so did you get pregnant easily?
J: That part was easy. So I am one of five children. And my mom has always told me that it’s like for our family getting pregnant is usually the easy part. And also for my mom, her deliveries were really fast. So I only tried for a week, and I was pregnant.
P: Oh, wow.
J: Yeah, I got off birth control and I was pregnant one week later.
P: Was that exciting or were you like, Oh, my God, I I’m not ready.
J: I was so mad at my mom because she told me it would take a little while she told me it would take after birth control that it would take about six months. That was her advice. She was like, it’s easy to get pregnant. But if you’ve been on birth control, sometimes it takes your body a little bit of time to like, you know, catch up and so give yourself three to six months after birth control and it should happen pretty easily for you. But it happened immediately for me and so I was like, You lied to me. You told me I had three to six months. And now let’s just here just like that.
P: Yeah, that does sound like pregnancy on demand, which makes for wafer thin adjustment period. So you find out with a home kit is that how you found out?
J: Yep. My husband knew before I did. I was particularly moody and emotional, a different part of our lives. We were also closing a business that we used to own. So I was sort of in the process of cleaning up the retail store and saying goodbye to this really important chapter in my life. So I was really emotional anyway. And I remember one morning before one of the last days or no it was the very last day of my business being open. I was crying. And my husband was making me an apology breakfast for for nothing right. But he didn’t have bacon and so he went to the store to get some bacon and he came home with a pregnancy test. He was like, just in case, you know, he knew that we had been trying and he was like, You seem a little different. And I know it’s the last day of your store. But why don’t we take that too and I was just like, flippant, you know, whatever. I’m so sure. I’ll take it fine. And wouldn’t you know it? It was positive. So
P: wow,
J: we found that out on the last day of this other chapter. It was really beautiful.
P: There’s a story book element that timing. As you’re closing the doors on the store, you’re opening them onto this new adventure. So take us through your pregnancy. How was it the beginning? What did you have morning sickness or anything like that?
J: Yeah, I was a waitress at the time. So I had left that business and I started waitressing because we knew that I was probably going to want to stay at home with the baby so I just wanted the job for the in between times. And I was very sick in the first trimester. I remember potatoes would make me really really nauseous and I worked in a restaurant that had a lot of French fries. And just the smell of that would make me so sick. But it was I didn’t actually like throw up that much. It was more just a general feeling of queasiness all the time.
P: Yeah. And did that go away after the first trimester?
J: it sure did
P: Good. Okay, good. And then and then how was the pregnancy after that?
J: Well, it was at the 20 week scan that we found out that my daughter was small. She was you know, in a low percentile, I think about the 20th percentile at that time. And we also found out a couple other things. I had marginal chord insertion, which meant that the umbilical cord was sort of right at the end of the placenta, and that can cause growth restriction as well. And then we found out that her kidneys were not developing quite right. And that’s an issue that my nephew had struggled with as well and he kind of just grew out of it. So that 20 week scan, for me was very confirming for a lot of the anxieties that I had kind of struggled with. I remember at the very beginning of my pregnancy and pretty much throughout the whole thing I was glued to this website that tells you how likely you are to miscarry that day. It’s a percentage, and it goes down every day as you get further along into your pregnancy and I was terrified of losing this baby at that time. I didn’t know I’d be one and done. But I still don’t know it was my first pregnancy and I already an anxious person. So I just felt fear and so when we had that 20 week scan it was like see you were right all alone to be scared.
P: well that sounds regrettably eventful. That’s a lot going on.
J: It was it. It scared me.
P: Let’s go slow for one second here. You’re sitting down but you don’t look giant like somebody
J: I’m very small.
P: So somebody has to be in the 20th percentile like why not? Your baby?
J: Totally. Yes. I’m, I’m five to and like, you know, 120 pounds or something before pregnancy. So the doctors were like, Yeah, you’re small. My whole family is small. We’re all you know, petite women. My husband is like six five or six something I don’t know. So it could go either way with our daughter. But they weren’t so worried about the small aspect, but it was that plus the marginal court insertion that had them a little bit worried because they needed to be able to keep an eye on the blood flow.
P: Yeah.
J: And to make sure that she was actually getting everything she needed and not to spoil the story, but she wasn’t
P: and the kidneys. Is that a genetic issue since you said your cousin have as well or
J: it may be genetic. It’s also just a common issue for babies just in general and it’s almost always something they grow out of. It’s just one of those things we had to keep an eye on as she it was like, I don’t even remember anymore. Whatever her kidneys were connecting to that connection was too thin. I’m sure there are folks out there who know more about it. But luckily that didn’t end up being one of her long term health issues going forward.
P: Good. And so what do they do after this? Can to kind of keep an eye on you?
J: They just did more ultrasound so I think we did an ultrasound after that every month. And I think that was pretty much it. I was with maternal fetal medicine instead of a midwife at that point. They were just watching us really closely watching my weight watching the baby’s growth and she went from the 20th percentile at 20 weeks to like the 10th or maybe the fifth by 30 weeks. So she was definitely growing very slowly and not in line with her own curve. You know, so if she were at the 20th and stayed at the 20th that wouldn’t have been an issue but they could see her kind of getting smaller and smaller.
P: Well, that sounds stressful. How are you between ultrasounds?
J: I was a wreck. Oh my gosh, trying to eat as much as I could. And I remember feeling really guilty. Because I am such a small frame. I wasn’t. I felt like I was putting a lot. I felt like I was putting on a lot of like water weight. You know, I felt very swollen. But I wasn’t really gaining that much and I just felt like I blamed myself. All the time, because it must be me because I remember when I was sharing with my husband’s mom one time how anxious I was. She said Don’t even worry about it. The baby’s going to be fine on our side of the family. We’ve never had any trouble with newborns. They’ve always been perfect. And those words were just ringing in my head like okay, so you’re saying if anything goes wrong, and it’s 100% me, it’s not your side of the family. I hear that. I’m going to take that in. That’s all I could hear but she was trying to comfort me.
P: also Pregnancy is a weird state have 100% responsibility and no control.
J: totally right. Yeah.
P: So it is hard not to feel responsible for something going on inside you. Yeah, but you really obviously you didn’t put the umbilical cord where was
J: I did not. Not intentionally,
P: that there’s not you know unless you’re not like, you know, smoking or you know, drinking too much alcohol like there are limits to what you can really do.
J: Right.
P: But I’m sympathetic. We’ve been into trouble during my pregnancy that required a lot of extra monitoring. I’ve never been a smoker, the anxiety of the waiting between those scans. definitely piqued my interest in becoming one. This is like a terrible…
J: Yes, completely.
P: It’s very hard not to feel like you’re personally being evaluated in those scans. And it’s hard to separate out, you know, the distinction between what my body is doing and what I’m doing.
J: Sure,
I think honestly, during pregnancy was the beginning of a long journey that I had with hyper vigilance. So during pregnancy, I was extremely by the book, you know, I was checking every single thing before I ate it. I wasn’t taking any medications that weren’t on the list even you’re drinking tea right now and it reminds me I was checking tea. What tea can I have? What do you can take out, you know, things that most pregnant women I think don’t worry too much about. I was hyper focused on the safety of my baby. And that was before I even knew about some of her health issues. So the whole time I was trying to take control of the situation that I had very little control over
P: let me ask you this. Were you were you physically healthy before you got pregnant?
J: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I’ve always been pretty healthy. I mean, even now, I haven’t ever had any health issues, which was why my pregnancy being the way it was, I think came as such a shock.
P: Yeah, that is super hard. You know, once you dig into the details, like the chemistry and all that a pregnancy is a miracle that anyone’s born ever. Like, it’s so so many things have to go right in just the right way. that it’s it’s a tricky thing to nail totally. So anyway, we’re in your story. We’re we’re getting ultrasounds were 30 weeks and what happens then?
J: So I think we were at the 35 week scan, or maybe it was right before the 36 week scan can we go in it’s just a regular growth scan. And the night before I was a wreck. I remember I was crying my eyes out with fear of what was going to happen at that next scan. And again, I think that’s going back to some of this like, anxiety, but also some intuition. Like I was really feeling like something was wrong. And it had been, I think, I think I was at a month between scans. So the last one was 30 and this one was 34. Somewhere around there.
P: Yeah.
J: And I was just feeling so scared. So I was there anything
P: was anything physical going on. Like did you feel pain or no nothing. You just had a sense
J: and she was kicking like my kick counts for good. I just want to correct myself. It was 36 weeks. I had the last one at 32 This one was 36. So when we were getting ready to go the morning for we would do our appointments before my husband had to go to work. So he was in his work uniform. He had his lunch all packed. We had our coffees, but I had my go bag ready pretty early on, just in case. And we drove separately to the doctor’s appointment like we always did. And they took my blood pressure. And it was crazy high. And so they were like that can’t be right. And I remember my eyes were swollen my whole face. was swollen, but I thought it was just because I was crying so much the night before. And so they took it again and it was extremely high. And then they didn’t tell me it was high. They did the scan, and she had dropped below the fifth percentile. So she was like somewhere in the second I think. And I remember the maternal fetal medicine doctor came in and with like, tears in her eyes almost, she was like just so sorry. You need to go to the hospital. You’re not going to be able to leave without your baby. We think you have preeclampsia. You gotta go
and I was just like, what you know this was not an outcome I had prepared myself for preeclampsia.
P: did you know what preeclampsia was?
J: I did from my you know, feverish research throughout the pregnancy of all things birth you know, I listened to a lot of birth podcasts. And I read a lot of birth books. And so to me preeclampsia was almost like a death sentence. I was really scared because I had heard a lot of really terrible outcomes. So she seemed scared. And that made me feel scared.
P: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
J: And she basically said for the safety of you and your baby, that you got to go. And so I remember they put you in a wheelchair, wheeled me over the hospital. It was just like, This is crazy. Pierce called out of work. It’s like I think I’m gonna be on paternity leave now I got a you know, so I was already you know, I had already taken leave, I think for my job that so they wheeled me over, took my blood pressure again. I think at that point, like normal is 120 over 80 And I believe it was to 220 over 120
P: Oh my god. It was Yeah. Oh my I think the cutoff for preeclampsia is 140 over 90.
J: Yeah, it was very it was like scary high and so they put me on, I don’t know some kind of medication right away They put me on a high dose of low beta low almost right away and that actually I continue to take for a long time. And I remember one of the first things they did when I got into my emergency triage room was they gave me a shot in my back for pennies. Like a steroid shot for her lung development.
P: Yeah,
J: is there like this is happening now. We need to get this baby ready so that she can survive. It’s just, I mean, those kinds of words being thrown around pregnant mother where she had probably stopped growing somewhere between those two scans. So not only was I having a 36 weaker, but it was a 36 weaker who was probably the size of like 32 weaker.
P: So but she was still kicking for that. Those weeks right between 32 and 36.
J: Kicking. Yeah, yes. Okay. Yeah, she was still moving really great. So when I would do my kick counts and stuff that was all good. She seemed, you know, she seemed pretty strong to me. Yeah. And, you know, she, they were checking her so they put a monitor on my belly pretty quickly as well. And that was kind of the beginning. of my birth story, right then, you know, kind of suddenly on a random Monday morning at 36 weeks.
P: And so are they saying it’s gonna be a C section or are they saying you can try to like did you have had you have imagined what the birth would look like?
J: Yeah, I had a doula who unfortunately was out of town because we were away before my due date. And they told me that they were going to try to induce because they, they wanted to avoid a C section. I don’t remember why. Something about losing Blood, I want to say they wanted to do it naturally, at all costs. That was the birth plan. So they were going to bring me in and have me stay in a room and induce me. And because I didn’t have my my midwife or like my actual doctor there. They were changing care plans a lot. So it was like, Alright, we’re gonna get you in a room now. And start inducing you or we’re gonna send you home and have you come back Friday and induce you no if you go home. You probably won’t be okay. And so they were kind of changing up my care plan a lot because the way Badal did lower my blood pressure.
P: Oh, good.
J: So that that worked pretty quickly on me. It was a very high dose but it didn’t have too bad of side effects or anything. And it was just funny because I felt fine. Like I felt swollen but yeah, I blood pressure. It doesn’t really feel like anything for me. At least I didn’t have the tunnel vision that they talked about or the headache.
P: Yeah,
J: I wasn’t really getting any of those. So it was just kind of a real surprise for me that I was even sick. And I remember them saying, honey, you’re really really sick. And just being like, how I feel fine.
P: That is kind of a weird disconnect. Right?
J: Yeah.
P: So how did the How did the induction you know?
J: That’s okay. So they ended up giving me a room and I spent about five days being induced. So I was there a long time.
P: Oh my God.
J: They had such a hard time stabilizing my blood pressure, like the labetalol would work one day the next day, it would not be working anymore. So they try a different dosage and they tried it intravenously. And then Penny is like her heart rate would go down with too much medication. So that was on Monday. I think the Pitocin didn’t even start until Wednesday, because they were still just like trying to get me stabilized. And the Pitocin and the magnesium I think happened on the same day.
P: So are you in the hospital feeling anxious? Do you feel like I am where I need to be and we’ll sort this out.
J: It was kind of a blur at a certain point. Like the first couple days I was really glad to be there and I was really against them. sending me home. Like I do not want to do this at home like my anxiety is going to be out of control if you just have me sit there and monitor my blood pressure. Because you know, all throughout the night and day I had this monitor on my belly for a penny and then I had a cuff and I think every hour the cuff would go off. And then I could hear Penny’s monitor every moment. And so I was just like in full on hyper vigilance mode.
P: Yeah.
J: And like my mom was there my husband and like, luckily, this was pre COVID. So I could have, you know, a couple people there with me, but I just I wanted to stay in the hospital at all costs. And they weren’t going to send me home anyway. I don’t think so. The first couple days. I was definitely feeling like part of the care team. You know, I was really trying to make sure whatever medication I was on wasn’t affecting her and trying to manage my dosages and stuff. And then once they put me on the magnesium on Wednesday, I was kind of I was kind of useless to the world. There were a lot of side effects for the magnesium. I was very shaky.
P: Yeah,
J: like almost tremors they put me on. They put me on some drug at some point that they told me it would be like a glass of wine. And it was not like a glass of wine. It was like a bottle of wine for me. My husband always teases me and says that I asked the doctor I kept calling him man. I was like hey man. How are you? Like what? He said, I just seemed like I was my old self. But like way before being a mom like I was at a party.
P: I feel like that’s the way to do it. That sounds right.
J: I wasn’t worried about anything for that amount of time but I was still very shaky and so the cervadil and the Pitocin. I think those both started really working on Thursday. And then I was about four centimeters dilated on Thursday. And there was a point where they felt like, although the induction medications were working, they were actually putting too much strain on Penny. So every time I would have a contraction, her heart rate would go down. So they started talking about a C section at that point. They were like this induction is actually going to be too much on her. If we keep trying to go this route. She might not make it. You might not make it. So we were talking about a C section and I was really pushing for that. I was like I do not care about natural birth versus a C section. Whatever is safest like, please just take me down there. I want to be done like I want to be safe. But they were really adamant on doing it naturally. So we kept laboring, things kept moving. And then finally very early Friday morning she was born.
P: Wow. So have you slept at all of these five days. I feel like….
J: no
P: I feel like the blood pressure cuff alone would wake you up every hour.
J: Certainly not more than an hour at a time. No. Wow. I I was in a fog. I hardly remember. My husband was kind of updating our family in a group chat. I remember watching movies. We watched Shrek at one point I think it was sort of like a dream state.
P: Can you can you push when you have magnesium?
J: I did. I guess
P: Wow.
J: can I say something kind of gross.
P: Yeah.
J: Is that okay on a podcast like? So I’m very stubborn. And I remember when they finally took me into the birth room, so I had been laboring in a labor room and then they are going to take me into the birth room where they had a NICU team at the ready. And they had like a warming table. It was a huge room. I think this was the room they take women who are having a high risk labor so there’s like 10 people in there. Yeah. And it felt like a spaceship. I was so out of my mind. And for some reason on TV, there was a space show. So I felt like I was giving birth like on a spaceship. And they were like okay, they gave me the epidural.
P: Yeah,
J: there was nothing. That was fine. I was like that was fine compared to all the other things you guys have been doing to me. And they were going to do a catheter because after you have the epidural, you know, you kind of need to do a catheter. And I was like, I’m not doing that. I’m not gonna get a catheter because I didn’t want them to have to take it out later. After all the drugs had worn off
P: where’s fun bottle wine girl.
J; Those drugs had worn off. She would have been fine with it. This was like hungover so fun bottle of wine girl was no more and now it was hungover shaky magnesium girl. Yeah, and she was refusing a catheter. So they were like, I don’t think this is your choice. You have to go pee right now like we can tell your bladder is full and you don’t have any control. of your body. And I was like yes, I do. If you put a bedpan under me I’m gonna go pee right now. They’’re like that’s not possible. And I was like yes if this so they put it under me and I did. I totally went pee right there. And I don’t know if the epidural totally like took because I felt a lot of labor in my back. So I guess maybe it like, halfway worked because I had total control of my bladder as well.
P: Yeah.
J: Which was I mean, it wasn’t super painful. It worked where it needed to work. Yeah, but I just I remember that because it was a good example of me just being so stubborn and of all the things like catheters don’t hurt that bad when you take them out. It’s not fun. But I was about to give birth and I wouldn’t let them just so stupid.
P: gotta’ plant the flag somewhere
J: that’s where I draw the line. So the actual birth it was hard. I pushed for probably an hour and a half. Because I was so exhausted, like my body was tired and magnesium made me very out of it and I hadn’t slept. So I was just having a really hard time mustering up the strength to push so it took quite a bit of time for me to deliver her. And she was born at 1:44am on the Friday.
P: Wow. Oh my god, what a long labor.
J: Really long
P: Yeah. And what was her state when she was born?
J: So she was about four pounds. 11 ounces.
P: Well done.
J: Thank you. Not so bad. Yeah. She passed the Apgar tests greatly. So that was all good. She was cold. So she didn’t need to be in the warming table. They let her do skin to skin with me. She lashed right away. And then she did skin to skin with her dad under the warming thing or I mean like, I remember I had him wear a button up so he could do skin to skin with her, but it was like a wool button. So he was just sweating. It was way too hot. But they kind of stitched me up I had a couple of tears and yeah, she was tiny. But she was mighty.
P: That’s awesome. And did she stay in the NICU for long?
J: So they didn’t put her in the NICU. She was just rooming with us she had like mid level jaundice. So they were just having us nurse her a lot. And unfortunately, I think our care team maybe dropped the ball. I think she probably should have gotten in the NICU. And I think she should have been observed more closely. Because they sent us home the next day that I think maybe it was the Sunday. Yeah. So we spent Saturday there and I think they sent us home on Sunday morning.
P: Wait, this this is too fast for me to send you home.
J: I agree.
P: wait, your blood pressure is fine. Now
J: my blood pressure had stabilized but I was on the beta low. Okay. So I remember they were discharging us and she was doing the carseat test, which is what they do for infants under five pounds to make sure that they can like sit in a car seat. Yeah, when she passed him. And I remember being like to the doctor, hey, do you want to test my blood pressure again before I go? And he was like, No, you’re probably fine. Like they had completely stopped taking care of me. And they were just focused on her. And she seemed to be doing fine and they tested her jaundice just the one time and it was medium. So they’re like just put her in the light and feed her. Like okay, so we got home on the Sunday and she was getting yellower or and yellower and I hadn’t been able to get an appointment to get her seen for her first ever doctor’s appointment. until Tuesday. So Monday came around and it’s like she wasn’t eating very well. And they hadn’t given me any information on like supplementing with formula. I remember calling and being like, can I give her formula because I don’t know if she’s getting anything like I don’t have that much milk coming out right now. I think it’s just colostrum. They’re like hers. Her belly is the size of a nut. You know, she doesn’t need very much. I was like But she has jaundice. So we ended up getting an earlier appointment with a pediatrician. And she opened up her diaper or I did and there were crystals in the diaper because she was so dehydrated.
P: Yikes.
J: And she was like so she’s really dehydrated and she’s really yellow. So we’re going to need her jaundice. You know, we’re gonna have to check her jaundice. So what we’re going to do is I’m going to get you a room in the children’s hospital, so you can just go ahead and go straight there and you’ll get right into a room
we were like what? We have to go back to the hospital. And as it turned out her jaundice levels were like, off the charts. And she had to be she my little one day or two day old baby had to get an IV of fluids because she was so dehydrated. And that that was really hard, you know, high jaundice levels and dehydration that can that can kill an infant, you know, and I just feel like my care team really dropped the ball with us. So we ended up actually being at the children’s hospital for a few weeks, because while we were there, they found some other issues and she had a heart murmur. And it turned out she had a PDA.
P: Okay, according to the Mayo Clinic, a PDA is a heart condition. It stands for patent ductus arteriosus and it involves an opening between two major blood vessels that lead from the heart. This opening is supposed to exist in the fetus, and at birth is supposed to close for a baby that’s born at term. Whether it becomes a significant issue or not depends on how big it is. If it’s big, it can allow poorly oxygenated blood to travel in the wrong direction. And can weaken the heart muscle and cause all kinds of complications.
J: for babies that are preemies that haven’t developed all the way it doesn’t close completely. And it’s supposed to just close over time but because she stopped cooking, it never did. So you can just hear this big murmur this big opening in her heart. And so we had to, they had to decide if they want to try to close it with a surgery or if they’re going to do a couple other things. They decided to just let it close over time. And as of today, she’s 19 months old, it still is not closed completely. It went from really big to really really microscopically small. So we’re gonna check back when she’s two to see if it closes. But she was having some issues. Like with her breathing, she was having some issues with her heart and then her jaundice was you know she had all of these different problems that probably should have been caught and taken care of in the hospital. And she should have been in the NICU getting 24 hour care, but they just kind of sent us home.
P: Yeah, that seems like a weird decision. Also, I guess when you told me it was going to close on its own and I wasn’t thinking of a two year timeline. Is that what you were imagining?
J: Most of them don’t take that long. So usually when they say it’s going to close on their own, it’s like before the three month appointment or so.
P: Yeah, yeah.
J: But sometimes it does take longer, just depends on the kiddo and how big it was to begin with. There’s other ways that they can do it like when it’s really big and not getting smaller for really tiny infants. I think of them like Tylenol, or ibuprofen or something like there’s there’s non invasive ways for them to fix it. But if she does end up needing a surgery, it’s pretty not easy, but it’s not even open heart. It’s just like a catheter that goes under her chest and into her heart and it just kind of like this little tiny filler where that hole is so it’s kind of you know, almost 100% success rate, but they’re not, they’re not really important. Yeah, no, no, it’s not something that’s going to follow her throughout her life. Like a lot of people who have that condition never even know about it until they’re in their 50s or 60s and they have their first heart attack. And their doctor is like, oh, when you were a baby. This part never grew in. And it’s a lot harder to do this surgery or this procedure when you’re an adult than it is when you’re a baby which is why they find it. They’d like to nip it in the bud.
P: Now talk to me about you How are you feeling in the fourth trimester and what’s going on with preeclampsia? And does that all work out?
J: wouldn’t you know it, I was still super sick. I remember when I was in the children’s hospital I felt pretty bad. And I don’t think I was taking any medication anymore. I think they just let it all come out of my system because traditionally they say the number one way to cure preeclampsia is to have a baby. I did that. And sort of I think just assumed it would solve itself. So my mom had encouraged me to get one of those at home blood pressure. cuffs at one point but we were in children’s hospital so I wasn’t going to leave her for even one second. I was having some really bad postpartum anxiety and depression and seeing her in the lights, the biliruben lights that was very traumatizing for me. So I couldn’t leave her I just couldn’t step away even for a second. And so I think it wasn’t until like a week later that I finally got out and got my blood pressure checked and it was super, super high.
So I called my midwife or my doctor and they’re like, Yeah, you have to go to the emergency room. I had to leave my infant, go to the emergency room with my mom. And they were trying to decide if they were going to admit me, put me back on a magnesium drip because they were like you have postpartum preeclampsia.
P: Yeah,
J: you’re still a risk for a stroke or a seizure. We can’t like just let you walk around like this.
P: Yeah,
J: but I didn’t even notice and I think even if I was having symptoms, I wouldn’t have done anything because I just wanted to be with her. Like my my mom’s sense was too strong. I couldn’t take care of myself. But it was actually my mom. You know, convinced me so I have my baby but I’m still her baby. You know. So that was kind of a special moment for me that my mom was so involved in making sure that I was getting taken care of as well. So they ended up not admitting me I remember I was crying asking them begging them. Please don’t make me stay here. I need to get back to my baby. She’s in the hospital. And they just put me on more labetalol and I think one other medication and had me monitor it again every day on my own and it actually took three months for it to stabilize.
P: Yeah, that’s how it goes sometimes, right?
J: Yeah.
P: And how’s everyone now?
J: Oh, good. I’m good. I mean, I checked it for a long time, I think up to the six month mark. And then now whenever I go to the doctor and it’s been completely normal since Penny is growing amazingly well. She like skyrocketed in growth because I ended up pumping for the most part at the Children’s Hospital. They had me kind of 24/7 hooked up to have planned and so they could measure her feeds because they we had this big chart up on the wall and we would write down exactly how many milliliters she would take. You know it was like that my and then we would supplement with formula or donated breast milk as needed. So for the first few months of her life, I was nursing concurrently with pumping and doing measured feeds. And so between the first and third month she like bumped right back up to a decent percentile. You know she’s still not huge, but she was back up to like that 20th percentile range good of like, not even one.
P: Yeah,
J: but between birth and that first doctor’s appointment. She went from four pounds 11 ounces to just four pounds even. So she lost 11 ounces just the first day of being alive. She was really having failure to thrive, basically And the pediatrician who sort of sent us to the Children’s Hospital the first time is still our pediatrician now and every time she sees Penny, she’s like, I cannot believe this is the same baby as that stick of butter you brought it as she was the size and the color of a stick of butter.
P: That seems like a triumph. Right? That’s that’s a great endorsement of all parenting. Yes, I’m working on another episode of the show that includes the story of a woman who experienced preeclampsia in ways that are different from yours. And I’m putting together that story. I talked to a maternal fetal medicine doctor who specializes in preeclampsia research. And she said we need to get away from using the word cure because there’s no quote unquote cure. Preeclampsia has this extended reach and that even after delivery, both the mother and the baby from the preeclamptic pregnancy are at higher risk for cardiovascular disease going forward. In her lab at University of Chicago they’re working on biomarkers to help identify preeclampsia much earlier. Oh, she said preeclampsia comes with all these kind of vague symptoms like swelling, or you might have a headache really have a little hypertension, but there’s no protein in the urine and so it doesn’t get caught. And so her lab has figured out the ratio of these two chemicals that a preeclamptic pregnancy produces if you look at the ratio and so they can predict, you know, a month beforehand, kind of which path that you will go on because some people have hypertension and it doesn’t develop into anything.
J: Sure.
P: So talk to us a little bit then about your ongoing care of yourself or like what you’re doing
J: so I think preeclampsia basically what led to us being one and done. First and foremost. Yeah. It took me about a week from having, you know, been past that experience to say I’m not doing that again. Yeah, and talking to doctors because we’re in the hospital setting and saying Is this likely to happen again? And I’m saying well, yeah, if you’ve had it once, it’s not unlikely that you’ll have it again. It’s not 100% Guaranteed right? And then talking to my primary care doctor after having postpartum preeclampsia. They told me that because I’m like, so predisposed to hypertension, and then it kind of stuck around for so long that he would think it actually is more likely for me to have it a second time. I’m 29. Now so if I were to get pregnant again, I would be a little bit older. And for me, from what I can tell from my care team, it feels like a 5050 split, whether it would happen again in my second pregnancy. So that was my first decision. We were gonna have several kids and we decided to cut it short at one.
And aside from that, I’m just a lot more involved in my care, you know, I go to my doctor’s appointment, I do yearly physicals, I try to stay active, all these kinds of things. I actually just found out that I have like permanent damage to my eyes. My optic nerve was damaged somewhere in my pregnancy. It’s possible that it was that time of very, very high blood pressure that did damage my optic nerve, but it puts me more at risk for Glaucoma. So that’s like another thing.
P: Can you do you feel any symptom of that now or no?
J: Well, I just got new glasses, but I went to the doctor just to get a routine eye exam because my vision had changed a lot pre pregnancy to now about 19 months later. And that’s normal, right? When you have a baby your vision changes, but it had gotten substantially worse. And I had this new optic nerve issue. So that’s something I have to do yearly eye exams and eventually I might have to do some glaucoma risk care. So there’s like these eyedrops that you can take to make sure there’s not too much pressure on your eyes. It’s actually very treatable if you catch it early, which luckily I seem to have done.
P: So Pregnancy is a stress test, obviously on everyone’s bodies, and that’s one thing it is hard to, I think, carry the burden of a potentially chronic condition. At the same time. It feels like you’re getting in at a time where maybe you can affect that trajectory.
J: Yeah,
P: so. That’s kind of you know, if there’s any good news to be had in this
J: I feel like you know, my husband and I met and we pretty quickly got married, like within a year and a half of our first date. We are married and how to house like we moved very quickly. And we had already known each other a long time so his sister is my best friend.
P: oh lovely
J: So we knew each other but like our first date, I should say not really when we met anyway. It just all moved so fast. And sometimes I wonder like wonder what made me want to move so quickly. And I wonder if somewhere deep inside like I wanted to do my pregnancy as early as possible before I was any older, because maybe my intuition was telling me like this isn’t going to be super easy on your body. And I don’t know. I just wonder if the universe helped me out with that or something. Because
P: Yeah, no kidding.
J: I kind of got out lucky all things considered. And so Penny,
P: totally, totally. I’m curious here. We’ll say this. If you could give advice to your younger self, what do you think you’d tell her?
J: I don’t think I would change anything. I wouldn’t have wanted to have a baby any earlier. That’s for sure. Yeah, just like emotionally and maturity wise. Yeah. Right. So I think I would be pretty proud of my younger self for everything that she did to get me here and get me to a place where I can be a good mom and and survive this really difficult pregnancy.
P: It is amazing, right? I’m sure you look at Penny as she grows every day and think I can’t believe it.
J: Yeah, I absolutely do. She’s my lucky penny. That’s what I call her.
P: That’s awesome. So how old is she now? She’s she’s not too yet.
J: No, she’s 19 months old.
P: So we’re her tricks. What does she like to do?
Unknown Speaker 13:40
Oh, she’s got a big personality. She’s really funny. She likes to make people laugh a lot. So she’s like our little comedian. If she does something that makes you laugh once she will like do it a lot to try to keep getting a rise out of you
P: super cute.
J: She likes to copy what you’re doing so like today, or yesterday we were doing like a Baba Baba bad and then she would do it back to us. Yeah, like she’s very musical. And I don’t know, I think she’s going to be somewhere in the entertainment world because she just like she likes to be the star of the show. And being an only child is only going to add
P: I was gonna say to the stage already. Yes. Nice to know, totally carved her path is awesome, Jessica. Thanks. So much for coming on the show and sharing your story. It’s an important one to share and one that I think is totally hopeful.
J: Oh, good. Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me and if there are any parents out there who are struggling with the decision to relive anything that they went through with their birth experience, I would just like to say to them, you know, your mental health is really important. And your physical health is really important. And if that means your family has to look different than you thought it would, that’s okay. And you can give yourself a little bit of grace for that.
P: Yeah, that’s a great ending message. Thank You
J; Absolutely
Episode 51 SN: Race, Identity & Motherhood: Naomi’s story
Today’s guest, like many of us, encountered some unexpected twists and turns at the delivery that were challenging to manage in the moment. But the focus of the story she shares today is about race and identity–she gives us a sense of what it’s like to live in the world both as a daughter who doesn’t resemble her father, and as a mother who doesn’t superficially look like her son…what assumptions people make and share and what these assumptions suggest about how we define motherhood.
You can find Strength of Soul, here
More of Naomi’s work: The Hidden Curriculum and Rethinking Race in the United States
Audio Transcript
Paulette: Hi welcome to war stories from the womb
I’m your host Paulette Kamenecka. I’m an economist and a writer and the mother of two girls.
Today’s guest, like many of us, encountered some unexpected twists and turns at the delivery that were challenging to manage in the moment. But the focus of the story she shares today is about race and identity–she gives us a sense of what it’s like to live in the world both as a daughter who doesn’t resemble her father, and as a mother who doesn’t superficially look like her son…what assumptions people make and share and what these assumptions suggest about how we define motherhood.
Let’s get to her inspiring story
Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?
Naomi: Absolutely. Thank you, Paulette, for having me. My name is Naomi Rachel Enright and I am based in Brooklyn, New York.
P: Oh, wow. That’s lucky. Brooklyn’s like the place to be.
N: It’s a pretty cool place. I must say. I do love it. I love it. My son is being raised here was born here too. I do love it. And I love New York in general. Like I grew up in New York, in Brooklyn and the Bronx, actually, I went to high school in Manhattan. So I am a New Yorker through and through for sure.
P: Wow. So we’re here to talk about family so before we’re talking about the family you created let’s talk about the family you came from.
N: Okay.
P: So why don’t you tell us Do you have any siblings?
N: I do. I have one older brother. His name is Nikki and he is six and a half years older than me and also lives in New York. So that’s that we’re both still here. Yeah. And so
P: you have kind of an interesting story of your family moving here. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that? Because I want to get a sense of whether the context you came from affected the context you thought you wanted.
N: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So I was raised in New York, as I said, but I was born in the La Paz Bolivia by chance actually, my father had a job there for two years. And so I was born there and spent the first 10 months of my life there and I am, ability and citizen but my origins are Jewish American on my father’s side. My paternal grandfather came to Ellis Island in 1910, from Russia. And my paternal grandmother was the daughter of Lithuanian immigrants. I mean, I think, you know, sort of the borders have changed over the course of time and so I’m sure maybe that you know, it’s like modern day Poland. What do I know but Eastern European, and my mother is from Guiaquil Ecuador, and did not come to this country until age 19. She came here on a scholarship at Tulane University. So she left at age 19 for that. And my father, my mother met through the Peace Corps. Actually, my father was a Peace Corps volunteer. He was teaching English and he was teaching English in Guiaquil, and my mother was one of his students. And so that’s how they met and fell in love. And were married for 44 years, I suppose. And my brother actually was born in Guiaquil. They had thought they would live in Ecuador. They were there for a few years before my brother was born. And then they came about the time they left Bolivia so he was about 10. months, I think as well. And then my mother jokes that she’s like a salmon because the salmon returns to its birthplace right to have its children. She wanted us born if not in Ecuador than in South America. But looking by birth, yeah, she was like this will do. So that’s my origins, you know, sort of ethnic, you know, familial origins, or
P: I know from your book that having an American father and Ecuadorian mother those two backgrounds together, played an important role in your life, and we’ll get into that. But on a more basic level, did you know that you would want a child? Did you think I’m going to have a family?
N: Yes, it’s funny that you asked that because when I was expecting my son, and I’m the mother of one child, in his first almost year of life my father was we told me that I had been preparing for motherhood since I was about five he would joke because I did I always wanted to have children. I always thought a lot about becoming a mother, wanting children how I would raise them. I used to in fact as a little girl, I would name my kids so I have these list of things for my future unborn children. So it was definitely a want of mine, you know, a desire of mine. And I think that you know, there was some truth with my father said it wasn’t a preparation, a lifelong and I’m also an educator. And so I work with children of all ages for many, many years, you know, nearly 20 years and I have a way with kids I relate very well to children, and I relate well to actually a wide range of ages…I always had some younger cousins I would take care of and use or pretend they were my babies. I have a, my youngest first cousin, I actually named him and so, you know, I felt this real, you know, sort of very connected to him. I always joke that he was my first baby, which my son does not like he’s like, actually, I’m your first baby and your only baby. So yeah, so motherhood was definitely something I wished for. And I’m very, very lucky and happy that that I achieved it. I am a mom.
(4:45) &P: Yeah, amazing. So before you got pregnant, what did you imagine pregnancy to be like?
N: Wow. It’s funny, you know, because I think that a part of me always thought of pregnancy sort of in the abstract, and I did not think of what the reality of being pregnant and and bringing a child for a lifeforce would, would be like. I remember clearly sort of the first inkling that I was pregnant, and I had, you know, sort of cramping that was out of the timeline of when I would be having cramping. And I remember thinking, Wait a second. That’s strange, right. And I had actually been my parents also sitting over there for some reason. And so the next morning I texted my husband, I said, you know, I had this strange cramping and it woke me up in the middle the night and he said he instantly thought she’s pregnant and he was like, she’s definitely pregnant. So he had the first inkling that I was, despite my having the physical sensation, he, he was really convinced that that was the, the, you know, my our child or future child making his presence known.
P: And that’s a testament to your abstract notion of pregnancy,
N: I guess. Exactly. That was like, I don’t know what that is. But But yeah, and so then it was confirmed within I guess, about two weeks from that. And my pregnancy itself was quite healthy and easy. I remember my hair looked great. I felt really great. So I would say my son was good for my curls when I was pregnant. And I was thrilled and excited. But as the pregnancy became closer and closer to the actual birth story, I remember feeling very nervous and very scared and you know, sort of this realization that you know, this is not abstract anymore. You know, this is going to happen, I’m going to give birth to a human being and I was terrified. And I ended up having a very, you know, not really complicated but it was it was a tough story because I went into labor
P: let’s go slowly here. Yeah. So tell us how how are we know today’s the day that you’re gonna go into labor like what what happens that day?
N: Well, that’s funny. Yeah, that’s part of sort of, you know, you know, the best laid plans, right. I remember packing my bag for the hospital and, you know, having it ready for whatever, two weeks or so in advance of my due date. My due date was November 24 2010. And so I had it packed and I had my novel, I had my lollipops, you know, I was like, Oh, this would be great. Thinking I was going to like to have some resort. And I remember that on was it it would have been I actually tried to have labor pains on the 24th. And so on the due date, and it looked like I might go into labor. And my husband, it was all like, you know, ready to he was like, alright, you know, we’re gonna go and we call the doctor and then it stopped. And so, you know, it’s an essence post labor and I was deeply distressed by that. I remember I was very upset because I had felt like oh, you know, this is it. You know, we’re ready. We’re gonna go we’re gonna have his kid. And it was not to be and I remember I texted uh, one of my best friends was pregnant as well and expecting very close to my date as well. And I told her and I was like off I’m so annoyed, right this this kid does not want to get out. And she said, we looked that way. It looks like he wants to see in the belly and you know he was expecting a boy. And I said, as long as he’s not past December 1, I was like, You better be born at least within a week. I said, and so you know, that week went by and that Monday before the first time where I had acupuncture, you know, sort of like get things rolling. And then that Tuesday the 30th it really started to get in motion and surgical contraction in this sort of thing out this is really going to happen you’d like we’re close you know maybe was even the mountain the night actually Monday night it was Tuesday went to the doctor you know as waddling along could barely walk, you know, huge It was huge. And I’m a fairly small statue you know, I’m not even five three and I had this huge belly and I was for waddling along and in a lot of pain I remember I love sciatic pain because of the weights and so my back hurt and I couldn’t walk I was so so uncomfortable. And went to the doctor and they said you know I think your close so you can go to the hospital and so are they actually said you can go like have a like a bite and then go to the hospital. And my doctor was of course in a realm of you know, in the neighborhood of doctor or you know, as my son was born in what was then Brooklyn Methodist Hospital, and my doctor was just about two blocks away from there. And then we went up to some diner and my in laws were in town and so my in laws and my husband and I went to have to food sort of you know, it was like, let’s have food and see what happens, you know, then we’ll take her in and sort of leisurely to the hospital. And I couldn’t hold on the food and I was not well and they all were like you know what, I think we just need to go to the hospital. We walked the block and a half or so that it was to the hospital. And I remember I remember sort of the you know, the wailing and the pain and really immediately asking for an epidural and I had I had not what I would want one I have I had totally the whole pregnancy tradition which is natural law. You know, I can do this, you know, women, you hear me roar. And
P: I hear some Brooklyn in there,
N: did you but all of that went out the window. Right? As soon as it really came you know the pain was there and the contractions and the reality was setting in what was to come I immediately was like, give me all the drugs. And of course, you don’t get that right away. And so I had to wait to whatnot. But I remember when they gave me the the epidural and I remember immediately calming down and being like, Oh, this is a really nice room. We’re gonna get the show on the road. So it’s a very funny switch of energy and behavior. And we really thought that it would come you know, fairly soon right that I would have like contractions I would dilate and I would give birth and we’d have this baby in our arms and be shorter lives as parents and as a family of three. But oh, that actually was not the case and I dilated to eight centimeters and I ended up I remember they had to give me I was GBS positive, I remember.
P: Yeah.
N: And I remember that when I for that I needed to be given antibiotics, right so they wouldn’t affect the baby. And I developed a fever from the antibiotics. It’s so funny to be remembering all this right? Because it’s so so long ago really in this way it was over a decade ago. But it’s so vivid, right? It’s like I remembered as if it were yesterday. I tried to use the case ready for any transformative experience. And so I did I developed a fever, and there was a horrible, horrible storm. I remember that night there was this rainstorm, and the wind was howling and there was the rain was hitting the window. And I have all these very vivid memories of the contraction and so looking at the different points in the room. I had my different points there. I’m of the doctor and my husband everybody told me to focus on as the contractions came. And I remember one of those points was the window and so I would see the rain and I would see the branches and it looked very ominous, frankly, you know, look very scary to me. And I was like This is terrifying. Like I don’t know what is about to happen and I’m so nervous.
P: I’m not sure you want to give birth on a dark and stormy night.
N: Exactly. I was like this is not making me feel good. And of course with a fever you feel awful anyway, right? Like I had the muscle aches. I mean, it was just awful. And I don’t know my doctor I loved loved, loved my doctor, you know, I felt like he was almost like an uncle. You know, he just adored him. And he was so kind to me and so good to me. And he was a jokester a little bit, you know, they’re a funny and this is with him, you know who make me laugh and he was very funny and light hearted and warm. And so I had this very comfortable rapport with him. And I remember he said to me, you know, Naomi, I think that you’re gonna have to have a C section. And I thought he was kidding, because he’d always been funny, right? So I started to laugh. And he was completely the most serious I’ve ever seen him and he said, No, Naomi, I’m serious. It’s like we have to get this baby out, and you’re not dilating and you’re feverish, and you’re delirious because I had barely slept. And so he’s like, you’re gonna have to have a C section. And I was very upset by that, because I had always throughout the pregnancy said as long as it’s not a C section, I don’t want a C section. And so I was deeply distressed to realize that I would, in fact be giving birth via C Section.
P: Some people have overlaid feelings about the C section beyond that it’s a surgery and that there’s recovery, but that it means something about the birth. Is there any of that going on or you just don’t
N: that was 100% What was going on? For me it felt like then I hadn’t done my job I hadn’t followed through a you know, as like the woman who gives birth vaginally and I was just very upset. You know, I felt kind of like, but that’s not what I’m supposed to do. Right? I’m supposed to give birth vaginally and I’m very upset by this. So it was entirely about the narrative of what is the quote unquote, right way to give birth.
So yeah, so that’s what it was. And of course, I was frightened of the surgery. I was and knowing that the recovery would be alongside caring for a newborn. So that was there. But I would say the overriding feeling was certainly you know, sort of that societal narrative and societal pressure of the right or wrong way to to give birth or to have a child period right to become a mother and so yeah, and so I remember I was very upset by it, and he had to really calm me, you know, they were like, listen, like you need to, you know, like you need to get this baby out and we need you to be in a good place as well right for you physically as as well as emotionally. And so you know, eventually was like, Okay, right, I guess this is this is how I’m gonna give birth right?
And I remember, you know, wheeling me into the room preparing the whole scene, the curtain ray in front of me and my husband has scrubs and of course, my husband hadn’t slept at all either, you know, he was delirious as well. Not feverish, but he was delirious and about to become a father and so for him was also you know, this is a latch, right, and we’re not even parents yet. And I remember in the operating room, being very cognizant of not seeing what was happening, and being very frustrated by that, you know, so very sort of divorced from my own birth story. You know, I sort of felt like am I even here, right? Because the curtain was in front of me, and I couldn’t see anything. And I could only make out certain things either by what I saw or what I heard more of what I heard them saw.
P: let me ask you a question about that. So I see section two before they put up a curtain I was like, You’re not gonna make me watch right. I don’t want to. I don’t want to see the woman sawed in half. That’s, that’s not my game. But people have said that they sometimes surgeons allowed like to have a mirror on the other side so you can see what’s happening. I wonder if that was an option for you or
N: no, that was never brought up that was never offered and I don’t think I would have necessarily wanted that per se. For me, it was more about not seeing the action of the doctor, you know, and the nurses and my husband, you know, that was more of the frustrating part to me. You know, I felt sort of alone despite having all these people surrounding me. And that bothered me, right and I remember when they finally did get my son out and I heard his cries. I said, my baby, my baby, that’s my baby. I want to see my baby. And I had to wait, you know, because of course, you know, they have to cut the cord and you do the weight and all that stuff. And so it felt to me like a lifetime. I was like, I hear this baby who I’ve been trying for the last 41 weeks, and I want that baby. I was like, give me the baby. And I couldn’t hold him of course, right? Because it’s a C section. And so my husband, he brought him you know, all wrapped up and clean. And I kissed him and I remember thinking he was the most gorgeous thing I’d ever laid eyes on that he was just precious precious. And I was then wheeled away which right I had to go to the recovery room. And that also was upsetting. I was like so I just kissed this baby who is in a world now thanks to my body and my husband, you know, and I’m not happy that I can’t be with him. And I’ll never forget that as they were really getting out. There were nurses wheeling, of course, right the gurney and they were having a conversation. But at one point I thought they were talking to me and they said to me like how are you? And I started to answer and then within moments I realized they weren’t talking to me I was like I’m actually not really here. Like no one’s talking to me was also sort of, you know, this kind of alienating isolating experience and in the recovery room. The first person I talked to on the phone beside of course. My husband of course, who was in the room with me was my cousin and my cousin is my first cousin. He’s the son of my mom’s sister, my aunt, and we grew up together. And I consider my brother, right for me I really feel that I have two older brothers and I adore him and so I always remember that he was the first person I got to talk to after becoming a mom and for him who is my older brother in essence right and has seen me grow up for him. He says you know, I can’t believe my little cousin’s a mom and remember, he was like, that’s crazy. So you know that that conversation sort of sense you know that wow life is really about to change, like it has changed. It’s about to become very different. And so I was in there and I couldn’t have water I had to do is chew my ice cubes which also aggravated me I was like I am thirsty. Like I want water and my baby. And I don’t know how many hours later it was you my son was born I think at 1:36pm and I didn’t see him till I guess like 730 or eight o’clock at night, something like that.
P: wow
N: Maybe it was early and it was like 630 but it was you know significant chunk of time. And they’re you know when I finally got to see him and hold him in the room was just phenomenal. And my husband were watching the video and I said to him in my arms I said you grew nice and strong in there because he grew he was eight pounds and 21 inches you know he was he was a very sturdy he was a strong baby’s born with muscle you know, it’s like you were like doing like push ups or something because he was so strong and so healthy. And so Did you know In retrospect, of course it took many years to come to peace with this but I in retrospect it was absolutely right call for me to have that C section. But it was a very hard way to to become a mom and to then navigate feels initial days and weeks and even months, perhaps even years of motherhood.
Yeah,
P: I have to say we have some similarities in our story. We both had C sections. Yeah. And a lot of the things that you described, I’ve never focused on in my own story, and you’re totally right. All that stuff is really alienating and it’s so weird to be wheeled to the recovery room. Just like you after the C section I was alone, but everything that unfolded after your C section is strange. I understand that the nurses can talk to their colleagues during work. But it’s strange to have that conversation literally right over you and ignore you in the process.
N: precisely
P: the lack of interaction sounds industrial, really just contrary to the spirit of what you’d expect after birth. Why was there such a long period before you got to eight your son?
N: I’m not sure I have a feeling perhaps had to do with having been ill right having had a fever and not having slept and maybe they thought they right from time.
P: that makes sense
N: But it was a it was like I’m not going to sleep like Are you joking, right? I was like I still want to see my baby. So that’s not going to happen, right? I didn’t sleep at all. You know, all I did was talk to my cousin and sort of you know, count the hours until I got to see and hold my child but I think that was the thinking the thinking was you know this woman needs to rest on before we really thrust her into the the ring.
P: for so many women that that last piece does not happen. It doesn’t people don’t dilate. Fully. Exactly. What would you do? Right?
N: Exactly. No, it’s that’s actually a really good point. Because I remember you know, my family saying to me, and you know me if this had been another time or another context, there you or your son would have been in danger, right? I mean, and that really also helped me to come to peace with with a C section as well. But I remember even people you know, even people initially in those first couple of weeks and whatnot, you know, saying like telling you their own birth stories in a way that I was like, I’m not really interested in your story right now. Right because I just went through it yesterday. Right? And it was traumatic on a number of levels. And I remember that upsetting me, right that people should be like, Oh, for me, it was so simply and I went in and I went out I had a baby. And I was like awesome for you. Right? Bully for you. Right? Because that’s just not what you say to, in my opinion to to any woman who’s just given birth like it’s actually about your story. It’s not right. It’s like in that moment, it is that mother and her baby and and that journey that they took to reach that point. And and so that was also upsetting to me in those first couple of weeks. I had more than one person you know, and I get it to I get like we want to reminisce you remember, especially now right now that’s years later like it, it’s so vivid, I get it right. I get that, you know, this is a transform experience that all parents remember and want to share and share. But I think you know, timing is everything. And so that was rough too. Yeah,
P: I agree. I do think it’s like traveling to a place that people who haven’t been there, just have no idea what it looks and feels like. That’s right. It’s just it’s a really hard thing to translate into language just like just like the pain of delivery, right? Like you imagined like, you know, I’ve hurt myself before and I’ve toughed it out like this is a pain that kind of defies defies analogy, right? It’s not like anything else. So it’s really hard to kind of get there.
P: Now that we’ve heard about your experience, I’d like to talk about how you’ve written about your experience. I don’t know if you’ve written more than one book, but you’ve written strength and soul. Is that the name of the book? That’s probably my one and only look at, which is super interesting. Take on your well, maybe I’ll let you describe it. So can you describe it?
N: Sure. Yes. So So interestingly, so you know, I describe my ethnic background, right Jewish father and Ecuadorian mother, and And so growing up there were lots of questions about like, my family, a lot of assumptions made a lot of othering you know, is that your real dad? Are you adopted, you don’t look like him this kind of thing. And so I was grew up with this way of people sort of making an oddity out of my family. And it’s always it was something that I think sparked a lifelong interest in examining identity and and racism and understanding the ways that we conceptualize of ourselves and of the world around us, and of history, and the assumptions we make and how that’s connected to to systemic racism.
P: So when we start, let me stop you there for a second because this is totally relevant to your story. So I read that beginning piece of your book about people asking you on the playground is that your dad when he comes up to you and how people treated you differently when it was just your dad and you and your brother versus all of you? Yeah, and I’m wondering how that I mean, that lives in your head. So how does that affect your thinking about I’m going to start my own family?
N: That’s a really great question. It’s interesting because my husband is white. My husband is of Irish and German origin. Grew up in the Midwest grew up in Ohio. And when I you know, when he and I became serious, and you know, certainly after we were engaged in married, and planning a family, letting a child let’s just say because we were already family, I had more than one person for sure. There were my father’s saying, you know, if you have a kid or kids, they’ll more than likely look white, right because adults my husband is white, and you are largely European in your heritage, right, and your ancestry. I mean, I’m brown skin, but I’m got a lot of European running through my veins. And so there was sort of this, you know, sort of this question, you know, what would this kid look like, you know, what would our kids or kid look like? And I remember when I was pregnant, thinking, like this, these can be light skinned, like there’s no denying in my head, and more than likely this child will be light skinned. So it’s really prepared for that possibility and more than like pure reality. And I remember once having a dream a very vivid dream, not too long before giving birth around the summer, I don’t know. And it was a sort of a golden skinned baby with, like, sort of caramel eyes and like, just very golden hair, you know, and I remember thinking, the urge, you know, maybe like that kind of maybe it’s my baby like, maybe that’s gonna look like my kid. And the truth is, I wasn’t far off because my son completely looks completely white American. There’s no one who would ever look at my son and think that he’s a brown skinned mother, and an even darker skinned grandmother and dark skinned biological family members.
No one would ever think it and so as soon as he was born, I looked at him I was like, wow, really? This kid is way lighter than even I expected. Right? I was like, I was kind of prepared for me to be light skinned, but this light skinned you know, I mean, he looked completely white. And I remember thinking even in the hospital room, like hmm, you know, it’s gonna be interesting right to be in the world with him. A little did I know just how interesting and how challenging and exhausting frankly, it would be right to navigate motherhood with a child that most people do not associate with me. And many people discard me as he’s not afraid to discard the possibility that I could be his his mother. And that was very painful for me. Because growing up it was hard. You know, I hated when people ask me those questions. I my brother, in fact, looks just like our father. I mean, I used to joke that my brother was our father dipped in milk chocolate. It’s my father’s face. Like he is my father’s you know sort of doppelganger, really, and I look less physically like my dad, but I certainly have shared physical traits of my father. And what made it even more challenging, sadly, is that my father right to my white parent, and just falling ill soon after my son was born, you know, he fell ill in January 2011. And I was very convinced it was very serious. And, frankly, the family didn’t really believe me. And they were like, Well, you’re a new mom. You know, you’re not sleeping like you tend to be a very a worrier. I’ve always been a worrier. This is true. And so they kind of thought I was over blowing things, and they were like, oh, Naomi, he’ll be fine. He’s fine.
But I was like knowing that right was like he’s losing weight. He’s not giving him an appetite. This is not the father. I know. Right. My father always been very healthy a good eater, you know, Walker. So I was just deeply, deeply concerned from that point from January 2011. And over the course of that year, which is the course of the first year of my son’s life, my father was dying. He was dying at year and we did not receive confirmation of that until September
P: oh wow
N: September 2000. Let him I thought it was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer which we know is different. Right? And he died November 29 2011. And so the very day a year before that I had gone for acupuncture. I’m beginning to you know, begin the journey of of giving life and having a challenge becoming a mother my father died and left this world and was deeply traumatic, deeply traumatic, because not only was I close to my dad, we were the best of friends, but I lost the connection, the context in essence, the physical context or contextualization, I should say for my son from my side of the family. And so when when I’m out in the world, my mother would think goodness is alive and well. People are just scratching their heads. They’re like, how did this happen? Right because my mother looks to the naked eye people think she’s black American. People look at me and think I’m Latina, or Middle Eastern. Maybe when people look at my son, I think he’s white. And so we are three generations of the same family. And yet, right and so there’s this real fatigue, you know, and being out in the world and even with my husband and son, you know, people often just or I can just tell you, you know, they’re looking back and forth and sort of trying to figure out, you know, what’s the connection here? You know, that’s the mom, you know, I’m gonna people that actually voice these things. It’s not just that I can tell by expression and because I have a lifelong experience with people staring and wondering. They have voiced it you know, I’ve been asked how long I’ve looked after him.
P: Oh, my God.
N: And this is from, you know, when he was relieved, I mean, now it’s different because he is, I’ve raised my son, you know, we’ve raised our son to have a very clear understanding of the way through the assumptions that people will make about us, and how those are always a reflection of their reality. Right? Like, what they know what they want, they think they know, and not of us, which was how I was raised. I was raised to know that the questions people pose to me, were not a reflection of me. And I always felt very empowered by that. And so I think that because of that intentionality, and my parents raising of me and my brother, I was prepared to be my son’s mother. That’s what I always say. I always say to be my parents daughter prepared me to be my son’s mother. Because I was you know, super heavy armor you know, I had the armor to be able to handle the questions you have to handle the the comments, and although you know, I’m not no one is made of of iron, and so it was very painful for me often and it was particularly painful because I didn’t have my dad and so I don’t have my dad. And so it was Yeah, and my son has my father’s eyes. And so that’s another thing that’s interesting is that people are very struck by his eyes. His eyes are really striking they are he has a blue green eyes that change with the light or what he’s wearing. And so they’re really a beautiful shade. And he also it’s interesting, because it has its shape of my mother’s eyes, and so they’re almond shaped. And they’re really striking, right? Because you don’t tend to see that shape without that color. But people always say that, you know, people are like, Oh my God, he’s got the most beautiful eyes. And I have to often be like, yeah, they’re my dad’s eyes, right? And so I’m always sort of reminded of his absence, you know, in those interactions, and people often assume he’s got his dad’s like, oh, he must have his father’s, which is always actually kind of annoyed me.
Because, right the assumption is, there’s no way that can come from you. So when I wrote this, you know, my book is is an examination of the contrast in the assumptions that were made about me with my mother and father, particularly my father, versus the assumptions made about me as a mother. And so as a mother, I’m assumed to be his nanny, his caretaker. And then growing up it was assumed that my father had adopted me. And I think there’s a lot of that’s a loaded, loaded assumptions. Because they are sort of attached to privilege and power and inequity really, right. And so I was just fascinated. I was like, Wait a second, you know, there’s something here right that there’s this huge contrast and was a suit about the same person me in the roles that I hold with these two people, one who gave me life and one whose life I brought forth, right, it was like this is fascinating.
And of course, it also sort of coincided with my lifelong interest in examining these issues. And I’ve also worked in around this all my life, too. I was a language teacher and in my Spanish teacher and in my language classroom, we were talking about identity a lot about culture. And all of this has just been a lifelong passion of mine. And so, you know, then having a child and sort of being given this, the huge responsibility of raising a person which is just in and of itself, a huge responsibility, preparing them for the world, and then visa vie all these issues. And then of course, you know, the wrench of my father’s death, you know, sort of the twists, you know, my father having died so early on in my child’s life, and in my journey as a mother, right, like that was so, so painful for me very traumatic, very traumatic and remains a source of pain for me, you know, I think I will always be sad about it. I will always feel that absence but luckily, because of my, my writing, really, I write a lot about loss as well. And Strength of soul is also born out of that loss as well. And so I feel like you know, language for me has always been a healer. And when I’m able to write about my father and my journey as a mother, I find each and every time it feels like balm for my soul, and it’s also a gift for my son, I feel, you know, I feel like I’m giving my father to my son. My son really sort of has a sense of who he was.
And my son has a sense of who he is right? My son knows that despite how people see him, and the assumptions they make about him, right. People do not think that he’s bilingual. People do not think that his name is pronounced in Spanish. Or of course, they don’t think I’m his mom. He’s so so at this point. He’s 11. Now, you know, he’s just ready to take it all on, right. Like, knows who he is. And I’m feel that that’s totally because of the efforts on my husband and our families parts. And so I feel very proud of that. And I feel sort of empowered by that because it feels to me like you know, the outside exterior is not going to dictate for us, you know, who we are and how we feel basically, in the world.
P: It is a tricky thing that you’re describing. And I can imagine as a child was confusing for people to constantly asked about is this your father, and to question your role as your son’s mother, maybe suggesting that there’s something that’s not right or that doesn’t make sense about a mother who looks like you having a child who looks like your son. Maybe that’s what feels offensive.
N: I mean, I think that we make assumptions as human beings regardless right? And assumptions about everything assumptions about you know, belonging, about family about what language you might speak, you know, where you’re from, etc. And, you know, I feel like that’s just a human quality, right that we’re going to do that sometimes. However, I think there’s a distinction between assuming and acting on the assumption. Right, I That, to me was the fascinating part, particularly as a mom that people would voice these things to me I was like, really, you know, I’m like you like That’s why you should keep to yourself, right? Like, why would you ask that?
P: I’m always thinking, you know, I can hear you say that out loud.
N: Like you said out loud. Exactly, exactly. I mean, the thing is, over the course of my son’s life, I have learned how to handle it so so well, I have to say because initially, I would just get upset, you know, making the anger I would feel hurt. And I would you know, just not want to leave the house. You know, I hated those mom and baby groups. I hated them. Because for me, it was like, you’re all staring at me. Like I have no place here. And I could tell that you’re like, how did that happen? You know, how is she that kid’s mom? And then I’ve only spoken to my son in Spanish in essence since his birth, right and so there’s and that to me, it’s been a godsend. It is protection for me because even though Spanish is not a private language, particularly in New York City, it is our own little sort of secret in a way right? It’s like people do not expect the child to respond to me in Spanish and they certainly don’t expect him to be like mama, blah, blah. Blah, right. And to me that feels like yep, you know, you figure that out rarely let people sort of sit there and you know, sit with that right that makes me feel you know, sort of empowered and and happy. But you know, in the beginning wasn’t like that of course right? When he was pre verbal right when he was pre verbal is like, gosh, right? Like no one knows anything here. He can’t you know, also speak to them. But I have a memory two memories that stand out from when he was quite small. He was about three when I was asked how long I’d been looking after him. I remember I was on a train platform with him and someone asked me, you know, how long have you he’s so cute. How long have you been looking after him? And without missing a beat I said since he was in utero.
P: Oh, that’s a great answer.
N: Thank you. Yes, I was pretty proud of myself. And she kind of blanched it was like, Oh, he’s yours? And said, yep. And she goes, Oh my god, I’m so sorry. You know, I was like, I mean, I guess you know, he’s really looked like you which is not true. He does not look at me look like me. Superficially, I always say, actually, he does not look like me. But for those who look beyond the surface, the child looks a lot like me, and particularly now that he’s older, but he has my lips. He has the shape of my eyes. He has my smile. He’s a lot of my gestures. And so it was like this kid is definitely looks like me, right? But people they just see, you know, his, his light skinned his late eyes and his light hair versus my dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair and they’re like, No way, right?
But I remember she was you know, apologetic and then ended up saying, you know, well, you know, you’re very cute and gratulations and I was like, Thanks, you know, and so ended up being sort of a passive exchange, it could have gone very differently, right. And I was trying to spin those moments to become sort of a learning teachable moment, which to also take psychic energy like that’s a little tiring for me, but I’d rather that then it becomes sort of you know, contentious, but I have another memory where he was not much older. He while he was like four. We’re on the train. And someone was staring at us. And I think sort of gone by that point, even at that tender age, was accustomed to people looking at us. And he was in his little brain trying to, you know, be like, oh, like, what is the big deal? Like, what are you looking at? You know, and I remember, he pointed at me and then look back at the person and said, Mama, and I was like, My job here is done. Like, it felt so, so affirming. To me. I was like this, my child gets it really he gets that people are gonna question I’m going to disbelieve and he’s gonna let them know what time it is. And that was at four right and so now he’s 11. And he’s just, he just knows what’s up, you know, and it makes me feel it makes me feel really good. It does. Because it’s been a hard road
P: what a moment to feel seen right when you’re when your four year old is like schooling the other train riders.
N: Exactly, Mama.
P: That’s amazing. And he’s bilingual.
N: He is he’s a native speaker of both. Yes, he is.
P: I’m So jealous because he so do you still speak to him only in Spanish or nowadays?
N: Well, you It’s funny you asked that because more and more the older she gets, you know for for particularly when it’s all of us together. It’s going to be in English right? But just the other night you know, we were having a conversation all of us you know my husband and I and after it was a dinner agenda generally, you know, the always the three lesson to speak in English but then after dinner I remember I was doing the dishes or whatever. And he started to chat with me again in English. And I said sufficiente Anglais I was like enough English, right? I was like, massive, but I will order Caressa which means like, gives me a headache. And so I told him he was like, switch, right? And so he switched, right so I feel like for my relationship with him for our own dynamic. I prefer it in Spanish right? And I’ll speak to an English in with his daughter, my husband and with other family members or like, you know, with a friend this kind of thing, but the minute I can or we can I want it to be in Spanish. And I think that’s in part because I don’t want him to lose it. You know, I feel that if he’s not using if you will lose it like any other skill. And I also for me, it’s also sort of a the cocoon of it. You know, it feels very safe and warm to me, right? I mean, it was interesting to me because when I was pregnant and expecting my son, I would speak to him in Spanish in utero. And I remember being taken aback by this because I go back and forth seamlessly for me both languages exist in my brain and had my entire life. I was also a Spanish teacher, right? So it’s like these two languages are entirely both minor, right? But all of a sudden, there was something about motherhood or impending motherhood, or Spanish became what I wanted to use. And I realized quickly that it was because my own mother spoke to me in Spanish speaks to me in Spanish, and it’s my language. Of, of comfort, I guess. Right? It’s like it’s my language of comfort in my language of safety and protection. You know, I’m sure I have even some, you know, subconscious memories of being saying you too in Spanish, you know, are you being soothed in Spanish as as a baby and as a toddler and so that was very eye opening for me, you know, to realize like, wow, like this is this language is definitely more significant in that sense. And so I remember you know, I remember when speaking to him and uterine Spanish, my husband saying who are you talking to? And I said, our son
P: in your family where you were raised, your mother spoke Spanish, did your dad speak English?
N: It’s funny. My dad was bilingual. My dad did speak. Both. But in general, yes. In general. My relationship with my father was in English, and my relationship with my mother is in Spanish. And then when we were the four of us, or as my brother got older and left the house and it was the three of us, I would go back and forth, but generally for us, like at dinner time, even if it was for three of us, it would be Spanish actually, because my dad spoke it. My husband does not and so that’s why it’s not Spanish in those moments.
I mean, my husband however, I will say, understands, I’d say like 90 to 95% of what is said. So like whatever I say to Sebastian, he will reiterate, right like your mother just said Go put on your shoes, whatever it is, right. So he understands. And I also always say that that my son would not be bilingual without my husband’s participation. Right. My husband’s agreement, right. My husband could have gotten in the way of it, you know, it could have been like, well, I don’t speak and I don’t want to not understand what my kid is saying, you know, he could have gone there. And he did not right I think he really understood how important was to me in Tripoli, given how the world receives us, right? He knows how that is for us. And I think sometimes it makes him feel saddened and frustrated, right? Because he knows it’s not as quote unquote, easy for me in the world with our son as it is for him. And so I think
P: I’m not sure I would quote unquote.
N: Well, I say up because I say, you know, there’s other ways it’s challenging to be a parent. Right? So it’s like, it’s hard for him in other ways, basically, but in this way, you’re right in this way. It is not hard for him at all. And so I think he really was like, You know what, our kid will be battling Well, you know, like, that’s an asset. It is. It is great that you want him to be really well. And here he is, right. And he you know, I mean, he even he told me recently they were reading a book about a Mexican American character. And so there’s a lot of Spanish in the book and the girl’s name and whatnot. And he said to me that he had corrected his teacher that that it wasn’t pronounced. He said, I told the teacher that we don’t say Gente, that the G is pronounced like an H. So it’s gente, which means people and I was just for me, it was just like, this beautiful, beautiful moment of him identifying so closely right with being a Spanish speaker and with being part Latin American, and saying we you know, he was like, you don’t say, right, I was like, Oh, my God, that is so beautiful, right? Because he gave me my son, you know, because of his presumption of whiteness has a very different reception in the world, you know, than I do from incidentally as a male as well. And so, I feel sometimes that he defies you know, all of these notions, you know, of who he is and, and that, to me, feels, you know, just just, it’s a celebration for me, because I think he needs to know all of who he is in order to, to, I think, to be more present in the world and to hopefully be more connected to people in the world. That’s That’s my thinking, you know, and that’s what’s behind the whole intentionality of his name and his and his bilingualism.
P: That’s super cool. Well, let me ask you a question. Looking like now that you know what, you know, looking back, is there anything you would you would have told younger you for this journey?
N: Wow.
That’s a great question. I think the one thing I would have told the younger me is to be prepared for, for surprises, you know, to be prepared for the unexpected. I think that when I had been thinking about motherhood, and certainly when I was closer to my within reach, right when I was married and whatnot, and you know, planning it with my husband, I had this idea that I would raise my kid with both of my parents alive and well and their participation in their involvement and I didn’t quite imagine necessarily having a kid who looks so white and wouldn’t be assumed to be mine. And I was wrong on both counts. Right. I ended up having this child with his physical appearance, and losing my father and having to navigate this new normal and this the reality versus sort of the ideal that I had concocted in my brain.
And so I think it would have helped me to know that the unexpected may happen. And I wish I could have been more prepared, I guess, in that sense. You know, I would have told my younger self she knows me like you don’t know what’s going to happen and be prepared for anything to happen basically, because he was he was a rude awakening to realize, like, Oh, this is gonna be a very different journey than what I expected. What I thought I would have and I think now certainly since losing my dad, and since you know, sort of having these immensely transformative experiences happen within a year of each other. I am now that person right now, I know not to think I know what’s going to come. Right. And like, actually, the only thing we know is that we don’t know what’s going to happen. Right. And I think that is actually healthy, sort of more of a protection in a way right? I mean, even with a pandemic, right. I mean, as devastating and as traumatic as it’s been, you know, in gradations, depending on what your personal story is, but I think it’s been globally traumatic, in a way I sort of was like, Okay, this is what we have to live with. Now. Right? This is what we have to deal with to roll with the punches over what they signify. So live in a global pandemic and wear masks and get vaccinated and do remote school and all these pieces. And I feel like my own tragic loss, kind of prepared me for that in a way you know, that tragedy will and may, you may or her and you have to find a way to integrate that tragedy and continue forward.
P: Yeah, that’s good advice for all of us. For younger you and for all of us now.
N: That’s right. Yeah.
P: Naomi thanks so much for sharing your story and I will put a link in the show notes to your book on Amazon.
N: Yes, a link to my book. And if you’d like I can also I can send you a couple of other links to other like through sites of of my work, and you could link those as well. I’m I’m very active on LinkedIn. So maybe that’s also linked if people wanted to connect or so I’ll send you those. I’ll send you more links for you to include in the in the episode.
P: Awesome. Thank you. So much.
N: Thank you, Paulette. This has been great.
Episode 51: Race, Identity & Motherhood: Naomi’s story
Episode 50SN: A Pregnancy that Outran Scary Predictions: Lisa’s Story
Today’s guest has an interesting spin on the difference between her expectations for the pregnancy and birth and her experience going into pregnancy. She had a number of health conditions that lead to a lot of cautionary talks about the many things that could go awry. And then when she actually was pregnant, she more or less skated through a problem free pregnancy. So she’s left with feeling grateful to have outruns so many serious issues and sad about the fact that she didn’t get to enjoy what was basically a straightforward pregnancy because she was constantly on alert.
You can find Lisa’s writing here
PCOS
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pcos/symptoms-causes/syc-20353439
https://www.webmd.com/women/what-is-pcos
https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/basics/pcos.html#:~:text=What%20is%20PCOS%3F,beyond%20the%20child%2Dbearing%20years.
Epilepsy
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/epilepsy/symptoms-causes/syc-20350093
https://www.webmd.com/epilepsy/default.htm
Epilepsy and Pregnancy
https://www.cureepilepsy.org/webinars/epilepsy-pregnancy-contraception/
https://epilepsychicago.org/what-is-epilepsy/sudep/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwpcOTBhCZARIsAEAYLuU8fRCTSVMxWjho2b1pckFcUOEhXYtS6Nvros5kCvTJZgKhCcC3EUsaAncmEALw_wcB
Fetal Surgery for Spina Bifida
https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/clinics/fetal-treatment-center
https://www.ucsfbenioffchildrens.org/conditions/spina-bifida?campaignid=71700000085986996&adgroupid=58700007287088131&adgroup=FTC-NT+-+Conditions+-+Spina+Bifida&creative=537193062435&kwid=43700065426505077&matchtype=p&network=g&adposition=&target=&device=c&devicemodel=&feeditemid=&loc_physical_ms=9031971&loc_interest_ms=&targetid=kwd-803521056122&utm_source=GOOGLE&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=FTC-NT+-+Conditions+All&utm_term=spina+bifida+fetus&&campaignid=14146813904&adgroupid=125672267659&adid=537193062435&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpcOTBhCZARIsAEAYLuVdDLyuSmXsok5GdMl3I_JALDEjLXlO00R2JNSHebSUzLG5DWzjA6QaAn3mEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
https://www.chop.edu/treatments/fetal-surgery-spina-bifida/about
Pyloric Stenosis
Breastfeeding across the US
Episode 50: A Pregnancy that Outran Scary Predictions: Lisa’s story
Episode 37 SN: A Look at Pregnancy & Birth from a bygone Era: Lily’s Story
Since it’s Thanksgiving weekend, I decided to make this episode about family. And in that spirit, I interviewed my mother about her experiences of pregnancy and childbirth. My mother, who is in her late 70s, had four kids starting in 1966, and ending in 1978. You’ll hear her reference my two older brothers: Josh who is the first born, and Teddy who is the second. I was the third in line, and there is an 8 year gap between me and my sister Samara. It’s surprising to hear about how much she changed and how much the medical apparatus around pregnancy in general changed in that 12 year period. Of course, this is just one woman’s story, and my father was a doctor, so she had very good access to different medical technologies, which you’ll hear about, but I found it really interesting to hear about how her experiences were so different from how pregnancies and births are managed today. And I hope you do too.
Hypnosis in pregnancy
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/hypnosis/about/pac-20394405
Female Gynecologists in the 70s
https://www.latimes.com/health/la-me-male-gynos-20180307-htmlstory.html
Audio Transcript
Paulette: Hi Welcome to War Stories from the Womb. I’m your host, Paulette kamenecka. I’m an economist and a writer and the mother of two girls. Since it’s Thanksgiving weekend, I decided to make this episode about family. And in that spirit, I interviewed my mother about her experiences of pregnancy and childbirth. My mother, who is in her late 70s, had four kids starting in 1966, and ending in 1978. You’ll hear her reference my two older brothers: Josh who is the first born, and Teddy who is the second. I was the third in line, and there is an 8 year gap between me and my sister Samara. It’s surprising to hear about how much she changed and how much the medical apparatus around pregnancy in general changed in that 12 year period.
Of course, this is just one woman’s story, and my father was a doctor, so she had very good access to different medical technologies, which you’ll hear about, but I found it really interesting to hear about how her experiences were so different from how pregnancies and births are managed today. And I hope you do too.
P: So hi, mom. I appreciate you letting me tear you away from Thanksgiving mingling, thanks for coming on the show.
Lily: Thank you for having me, anytime.
P: Exciting. So I thought I would focus on a couple things. with you because you started having kids in 1968 is that when Josh was born 66 Oh, wow. 66 Okay, so you’re you’re pregnant and 65 Right. You obviously wanted a family?
L: Yes.
P: And and you got pregnant easily. I know that part of the story.
L: Yes.
P: Did they have home testing kits when you were pregnant?
L: I’m trying to think no, you sort of found out the hard way. Once you got sick nauseous.
P: Oh, that’s interesting, so you just. You started to feel poorly and then what you went to see the doctor.
L: No, I didn’t I had a doctor in the house.
P: What you need to know here is that my dad’s hematologist.
L: Yeah. So when I started getting nauseous in throwing up, you know, a couple times a day and my lasted like a whole day so my husband figured I’m pregnant. Because after all I was fine before
P: and you guys never thought oh, it’s the flu or Oh, it’s something I ate or
L: well, but you could do that the first day but if you keep on having morning sickness and chucking up at anything that you drink or eat.
P: And then once you think you’re pregnant, then do you have to go to the doctor’s office for a blood test or how does it work?
L: No, no, we really didn’t go right away. Dad at the time was practicing at Kaiser Permanente. So I was sort of the housewife because he was in the house. And first time I met my gynecologist obstetrician, he says, oh, a doctor’s wife like that. Like, oh, boy. They’re difficult patients. So this was my first first meeting. And I told him, I what my symptoms were. But also what happened is that I had a lot of chest pains and we didn’t know what that was for. And that’s the only reason I started going to the obstetrician. And he sort of blew it off. He says, oh, maybe you’re worried you’re anxious, whatever it is. He checked me out and I was fine. And, you know, I was pregnant. And that was it. But yet I was having these these chest pains and I guess later on we found it was more anxiety because of my past experience.
P: Okay,
L: from after the war.
P: So my mom was born in the middle of World War Two in Poland to Polish Jews. That’s what she’s referencing here. Yeah.
L: So he had nothing for me and he didn’t spend any time with me either. He just said, Well, you know, doctors, wives are always difficult. Nice. So, what happened is that we decided to go to another obstetrician. And this one, both my husband and I went to a seminar on hypnosis. And that’s when this obstetrician presented his use of hypnosis during pregnancy. And if he started early enough, you could by the time you’re ready to deliver, you could be so relax and use the auto hypnosis that you could deliver without any medication without spinal.
P; Yeah.
L: So this is this is his reasoning, and he sort of exuded such confidence and warmth. So my husband turns to me, he says, Should we try him? Okay, because I didn’t like the obstetrician at Kaiser. So we made an appointment with him. And I told him my story, and he wanted background. So I told him where I came from and the experiences that I had, and he was fine. He says, Well, he uses auto hypnosis would I be willing to try it? So I said, okay, and he had the kind the chain with a little ball that moves back and forth.
P: Oh, you’re kidding…And I was just asked about that. If you have like a watch on a string.
L: Right, right, with a crystal ball, and he would just go back and forth and you had to concentrate, and he would try to get you under, and I was a good candidate. So I went under. And under hypnosis, he asked me why do I have this tightness in my chest and why does it hurt so much? What am I afraid of? Am I afraid of the pregnancy? And I said to him, it’s my experience of being in the hospital in Germany, and I needed to have my belly button. Because I was born during the war and with my parents running from the woods and everything. They didn’t close my belly button correctly. So with an outie instead of an any, okay,
P: so my mother and her mother survived the war. They’re getting ready to go to America. They need all their medical affairs in order and for some reason, there’s some belly button issue that needs to be fixed before they can board the ship for the US.
L: I wouldn’t be accepted in the US unless it was it was operated on and it was pushed inside. So okay, so that’s what my mother had to do. So she, she took me to the hospital in Germany, but she never told me about it. And I was seven years old, and she said I would get treats. And when she took me to the hospital, she came in the nurses took care of me and she had to leave. Well, I found out that the this doctor’s coming within like a big needle. I was terrified because I didn’t know what was happening. And I ran away so they had to chase me at 7 years and finally they found me and they just held me down, put me on the operating table and there was this big big light up on top. You know, the the light for operations, ya know, within the surgical ward, and all I could remember is that big shiny light, and they’re giving me an injection. And that’s the only thing I remember after that I recovered, and I had the surgery. So I think the idea of going to the hospital for the first time because I didn’t need to go to the hospital ever since.
P; Right
L: So the idea of going to the hospital and seeing that big light and being on a surgical table to deliver. I get that pack petrified. So once he knew that, he could work with that. And through a couple of sessions with the auto hypnosis I recovered and I wasn’t afraid of that anymore. So he just released me from from this this anxiety that I had,
P: but what I love about this story is that it feels very, you know, 60s hippie out in California, which I totally dig. And and amazing that helped him like nice of him to take walk the extra step to say why are you anxious and how can I help you and
L: yes, well, that’s why he was so special. Yeah.
P: So while I’m talking to my mother, I’m enjoying the story of auto hypnosis like it’s from a bygone era. But when I went to look it up, it’s still around now more likely called hypnotherapy. It’s still used to treat anxiety and is used specifically to treat anxiety and pregnancy
L: by auto hypnosis if you were a good patient that you could go under and, and he could ask you questions you would respond. That’s what he did. So after several sessions, I felt more relaxed and I wasn’t fearful of that situation. And my pregnancy moved along very well.
P: That’s awesome. And so after that medical intervention, you don’t have ultrasound, right.
L: No.
P: So what what thing like that was so what’s the doctor’s visit? Like? What do they do when you get there to check you out during the pregnancy?
L: You know, they feel around the size, you know, with their hands and they feel around your belly. They listened to the heartbeats and you could hear them, they let you listen to it. And the only internal exam was right in the beginning and everything was fine. And from then on, it was not every single month till towards the end. And then it was like every two weeks by the eighth month.
P: So did you get to 40 weeks.
L: Oh, yeah, because I was over I was overdue by two
P: by two days?
L: I was over two weeks.
P: Oh my god. Two weeks is a long time at that point. So how did you know that you were going to give birth that day?
L: Oh, well, it was different since I was two weeks overdue. And you know, he figured out a date and when he was he was to be born but it didn’t exactly fit on that day. So he was going to go back to New York for a conference. And he really wanted to deliver me because he had practice with me with the auto hypnosis. Yeah. He didn’t want to turn me over to another obstetrician. So that’s when he induced me
P: so his induction in 1966. Does that involve like an IV with Pitocin? Or what does it look like?
L: Yes. Yes
P: Okay. Yeah, that sounds painful.
L: Well, that wasn’t so painful until the labor really started.
P: Did you get an epidural?
L: I didn’t get an epidural. Because he at the same time because I had a 17 hour labor. So he had given me all the pain medication during that time. And he was worried because the baby was so big. So basically all the pain, pain medication during this, this labor for so long. That when I went on the delivery table at the time that I came in, I had nothing and he gave me laughing gas
P: and didn’t work at all
L; with the laughing gas, but no, not really
P: well, because since then you had your other gym. With epidurals so you can compare
L: Yeah. Oh, yes. Once you got the epidural, it was a nice relief.
P: So he basically had a natural childbirth for your first one.
L: Yes, yes. Yeah. And he was nine and a half pounds. So I had a lot of tears that he had to prepare.
P: Yeah, that sounds hard. And then you stay in the hospital for like a week?
L: No, three, four days. Okay.
P: And in 1966 Where you were, was breastfeeding a thing or it wasn’t a thing?
L: No, it was if you wanted to you you can. But unfortunately, Josh was such a big baby. That I didn’t get enough milk.
P; Yeah.
L: And he was always crying because he was hungry.
P: Yeah.
L: And of course, if you were nursing, you couldn’t give him a bottle as a supplement. Yeah. So eventually, we found a pediatrician who had nine kids of his own so he knows. He knows about babies. So I went we went there. After three weeks. We just couldn’t figure out I was still not getting enough milk to feed, feed a big he was like a three month old baby and they’re in the nursery. Everybody said, What’s I think baby doing? He’s not a newborn. But the pediatrician said, look, he said you’re not getting enough milk. He’s hungry. He said, Give him a bottle of formula and see how much he drinks. And if he drinks, a full eight ounce bottle, then change them over for the sanity of you and the baby.
P; Yeah, yeah.
L: And he did he guzzled up that bottle of formula. And he was happy and he finally went to sleep. So I said, I’m done.
P: sold
L: So yes, exactly. Yeah, I’m one because I’m suffering. I was crying the same time the baby was crying. I didn’t know what to do. Yeah, so yeah, so that’s all
P: A couple of questions here: first, what were the first few months like with with a newborn? I’m assuming that you didn’t get much help.
L: Had no help. No help. Plus, my husband got, you know, he was recruited to the army because of Vietnam. So we had to leave he was a month and we left for Texas
P: Wow.
L: We left for Texas,. Yes. And we were really nervous. And we lived in this terrible terrible rooming house, because we didn’t realize that the Army gave you some kind of funds so that you could stay in a motel, which would have been air conditioned and not plus bucks. You know, real big bucks.
P: Yeah.
L: So it was a very unpleasant experience. Until later we found out that tickets daily pay out for hotel room. So we left that darn place so darn fast we moved into the Holiday Inn and it was like having that
P: that’s awesome. Yes, but the baby but Josh is asleep right is asleep or had all that go.
L: He was wonderful once once he was fed, all that he needed. He was wonderful. So he slept he just got up once or twice during the night. And that eventually changed. And he was so good. Once he was asleep. You could take him anywhere. We used to take him to the officer’s club. Hide him under the table, but the long table clocks were able to eat and nobody realized it was a baby in there. And when we left they sort of
P: I can’t believe you’re going out after the baby’s like two months old.
L: Yeah, yeah, we did. We did. So as long as the baby slept once I put him down at six. And you know, he slept to half the night. It was a big baby and he ate so he was fine.
P: It occurs to me as I will say this that my mother was 21 when she had her first child, so of course she’s going out when a baby is two months old. Were you surprised at how hard it was to take care of a baby or or no, that seemed appropriate.
L: You know what? I’m with the first one that had a baby in my group.
P: Yeah.
L: So I couldn’t ask anybody because nobody had any experience. Right? So mine within and my mother had no idea and no interest.
P: Yeah.
L: in babies So she said if I have to feed him Do not leave him. That was a clear answer. Right?
P: Yeah. Yeah.
L: So I enjoyed it because I really was very happy with him and he was just such a lovely baby. You know, I enjoyed every minute of it. And that’s why I was so broken up when he was crying. I was crying and my husband come home and he said why? Are you crying? I said because she’s crying. And then I don’t know what to do. And I couldn’t call anybody because nobody had children.
P: Yeah. yeah, yeah
L: I was the first one Married and I was the first one that had a baby. Yeah. So I had and I don’t didn’t have cousins or aunts and uncles or whatever task so I was really on my own.
P: Yeah, that sounds tricky. And was it was it cloth diapers or what was that like?
L: It was cloth diapers. It was and we had a service. Thank goodness we had a service. But in the army, they started having plastic diapers. So that’s what I use because I didn’t want cloth diapers because you know who am I going to call? We’re in a motel.
P: Yeah, So it’s like an old time milk man?
L: We’ll get a service. No, no to get a service.
P: No, what’s a service? What does that mean?
L: Oh, the diaper service wouldn’t bring you cloth.
P: You leave them a bag of dirty diapers and then they replace it with clean ones,
L: with clean ones and they count how many I returned and that’s how many I got.
P: Wow, that’s a good deal.
L: Yeah, yeah, that was a saving, saving grace. Because we didn’t have a machine in our apartment.
P: Oh, a washing machine.
L: Yeah, yeah, washing machine. So where was I going to go wash diapers with the baby? Yeah, and I didn’t have a car because my husband’s up the car. So I so I needed something and we didn’t have the paper the paper diapers.
P: Yeah.
L: At that time. So you know, was a whole mess and we just decided that was a good investment.
P: Yeah, that sounds like it so when you’re in the military, that you’re pregnant with number two.
L: Right.
P: And that also, I’m assuming was not planned?
L: Yes. We decided that let’s have a baby in the military so we don’t have to pay anything.
P: Okay. All right. That was planned. And that was the second one easier because you knew what to expect and
L: yeah, I had the same the same episodes with with the nausea. You know, that kind of thing. But, you know, luckily, everything went very smoothly and I had a very nice obstetrician in the army. Very nice.
P: And then so for that birth, this the second one come on time.
L: Ooh, it’s army time. They give you the date. babies delivered. But yes, I was full term I my due date was was February 17. And I came to see my obstetrician. He says okay, you’re ready. Oh, you come in on come break the water and you’re ready to go.
P: Wow.
L: Yeah,
P: now people get really excited if you if you break the water that’s not considered cool for the doctor to break the water unless like things have gone wrong.
L: You know what? I was clueless again. Who knew? Who knew? I certainly was hoping that I wouldn’t have such a long labor as I did with Josh.
P: Yeah.
L: And he felt this baby was big enough.
P: Yeah. So you had an appointment on your due date. And you went in. He broke your water and then did that start contractions? Are you needed to be induced?
L: No, no, I came in on the day before that was my came in the 16. And he says, You know what? You’re ready. Your your due date is tomorrow. Why don’t you go home, make arrangements for your other child and set it up? And come on in. We’ll break the water in and you’ll have the baby. So we did.
P: So you went in like it was a business meeting because you weren’t having contractions. Right, right. And he broke the water and then did your contractions start?
L: In a little while? Yeah, yeah, definitely pretty fast. Labor was was very fast.
P: did you get an epidural for this one.
L: Yes, he did the epidural. He didn’t call him in an anesthesiologist which surprised me but he did it and the only thing I have to say he didn’t stress about drinking water. So I had a lot of spinal headaches when I came home, miserable in the hospital and when I went home, so if I had known that I would have been guzzling water constantly.
P: Yeah.
L: But I didn’t know that in grandma was watching Drush. And she never never heard of it and didn’t know about it either.
P: Well, she didn’t have an epidural. There’s no
L: right but he would think that she’s a general physician. She would have had some idea of women having epidurals and you could have a headache, spinal headache, because you don’t take enough fluids. But she didn’t know anything about that. So
P: that’s totally interesting. And so did you remember how long the labor was with Teddy? Four and a half hours?
L: Oh, that’s quick.
P: Yeah, no, it’s Yeah, yeah.
L: So I like that.
P: No kidding. Yeah, that’s a great reduction. Did you feel the birth or no, because the epidural work,
L: the epidural work, so that was really slow. Everything worked out very well. I said geez, the army.
P: The mission is to get this baby out. Right So did you get to stay in the hospital man Are they kick you out? What do they do?
L: Yes. Oh, no, no, no, I got the royal treatment because my husband was an officer. So unfortunately, the baby got a real treatment. He had his own bassinet in his own room by himself because it was no other officers wives that had babies.
P: Oh they segregated the kids, that’s funny.
L: Yes, yes. Yes, they segregated the wives and segregated the babies.
P: That is strange So what was it like when you brought the second one home because now you have two and you still don’t have much help was my guess.
L: Right? Well, it was work. It was constant constant and you had an almost two year old. You know, when he was a little jealous of the baby. Yeah, he kept pushing when I and I didn’t breastfeed the second one at all. He was 8 12
P: Yeah.
L: But he was a big baby too. And you know what, I didn’t want to go through that and whether he’s getting enough milk or not and I had the two year old. I said, You know what? I’m okay. You know, so I saw with the first one that giving him formula. He turned out pretty well. Yeah, so I just went straight ahead to give him formula for the second one too.
P: Well also this is 1968. So I think the fashion of breastfeeding comes and go
L: oh, at that point. Yeah, at that point, and 66 It wasn’t really an 68 Absolutely not everybody sort of used formula.
P: Yeah. Well imagine postpartum is tricky because you’re exhausted. And have too little babies.
L: You know what, I was just happy to have two healthy kids. And that we were together because Vietnam was hanging over us every single day. Yeah. So in that sense, and and we had, what, six months left, before he got discharged, you know, dad a discharge. So I’m keeping my fingers crossed that we don’t get any letters.
P: Yeah. I would guess that’s a giant dose of perspective.
L: Yeah, right. Yeah. So all in all, you know, there were too many other stresses around. So I just concentrated on the babies.
P: Okay. And then from there, you move.
L: We went back to California. They had a position waiting for dad because he signed and then he got drafted. So they were holding that position for him.
P: So why did you leave California?
L: And that was other things. This was a general practice and they really didn’t explain that to Dad. And he had to do everything from pediatrics to wow, you know, geriatrics to, you know, everything in between. And he just didn’t like that kind of practice. And there were a lot of wealthy communities there that demanded you to come out for a headache.
P: Yeah.
L: So during the night he’d have to drive in the wilderness to find his house. And he says, oh, Doc, give me something. And he’s there stained by the fireplace with the with the drink. And he says, I have a headache. And I just came back from Japan or whatever. So dad does not like any part of it.
P: Yeah, I can see it was I can see what’s not appealing there.
L: And we decided to go to the east coast because he wanted to go back to New York. Plus, we thought we had family. For Kids. Yeah, and stuff. So yes, we headed to New York.
P: Okay, now I want you to walk very carefully through this next pregnancy which is me. So then planned again, am I planned.
L: No, that just happened in my surprise. What happened is I I had my time, it wasn’t a copper T.
P: It’s some kind of birth control.
L: Yeah. So I had, you know, different things inserted. What was on 68? Yeah, but I decided since we’re going east coast, and I was having issues with these new new thing that I would have it removed. Not thinking, yeah, you can get pregnant again.
P: Yeah. Yeah.
L: And that’s what happened on our way across.
P: Oh, wow.
L: Yeah. So I found out that I was very tired and sleepy and totally exhausted to New York. And I didn’t realize that’s one of the symptoms to have early pregnancy. So that’s, that’s when you came around.
P: wait So there’s still no home pregnancy test.
L: And no, we didn’t do anything like that. Okay, we didn’t do anything. So yeah. So we came to New York, and we thought of the heat and the humidity. It was during the summer. And of course, you know, I wasn’t used to that. And that’s why I was so exhausted and everything. But eventually, I got nauseous again. That was one little symbol of what’s what’s coming.
P: I was trying to send several signals at first, but no one was getting it.
L: Nobody was listening. I’m sorry.
P: That’s okay.
L: So how was that pregnancy that pregnancy? It was normal in that sense. It’s just that we were stuck in a motel room with, you know, with four of us. Yeah, two little ones and I was pregnant again, and I was sick. And dad was starting this new practice. So he was gone all day.
P: Yeah.
L: Sometimes in the evening, too. So I was just, you know, it was just hard there. It was very hard, and to be stuck in the motel with the heat and the air conditioning, not working and no car you know, so yeah. So that that was a difficult kind of thing, but not because of the pregnancy.
P: Okay. And then okay, and then for my birthday, do you? How did that happen? How did you know? My birthday was the day
L: well, that really annoyed me because I my obstetrician who I loved, and I think he was so great, but he wasn’t available. He had emergency, you know, delivery or something. So I saw his partner. And he he said, oh your Do you know and I was you know, maybe closing in on my ninth month. And he says, Why don’t you come on in and because you tend to have big babies and we don’t want to worry about that. Make it easier. Just come on in. And you know, we’ll give you some and we’ll induce labor. So I said no, I don’t want to do that. I said, Maybe this time I will wait till the baby is telling me yes, I’m ready.
P: Yes. Now you’ve got wise. Yes.
L: Yes. Yes. You know, you learn from each one. Yeah, but the thing is in the army, I was really due. Yeah. And everything was was just just the right timing. But what happened is that Dad told his mother, that this is what the doctor said. And we had to figure out if she would come and help us take care of the two kids at home. And that’s when I could go in the hospital. And at the time to was February, and he wanted me to come in on the 17th. I said, No. I said I’m not having two kids. Born on the same day.
P: Yeah.
L: it’s Not necessary. I’m not sure we due. feel any. I felt Braxton Hicks kind of things, but not labor.
P: Your kids appreciate that. Way to stand your ground.
L: Yeah. So then, he said, Well, your taking chances he tried to scare me. I didn’t. didn’t appreciate that. So I said thank you. I’ll think about it. And I just wanted to get out of his office because I said no to I called my obstetrician. And we were at that point on first name basis, because of the doctor community kind of thing. Yeah, he was just the warm person. And he didn’t want me to call him Dr. Stall. So he’s just call me. So I called him up. And I said, your partner, which I named, he wanted me to come in that you would do pit and just induce labor. But I didn’t want to and I said why can’t I wait and have the baby when when this you know, I didn’t know what your boy or girl there’s no way of testing that. I said I’ll wait till till I’m in labor. So he says okay, okay. But then what happened? I got pressured into the following week, because grandma said the only time she could come with the following week to take care and help me out.
P: So Grandma decided my birthday.
L: Yep. Yeah,
P: was she still a practicing doctor at that point.
So, to give a little background here, my grandmother is also a doctor, now living in NYC, and my parents have moved from the west coast to the NY suburbs to be near her. My grandmother and my father were also war refugees who came to the US in 1950…so although she’s a doctor, she had to start her life over again in the US, and had now been in NY for about twenty years…as you can hear for a variety of reasons she and my mother always have kind of a contentious relationship
L: Yeah, I wasn’t happy about that. But dad didn’t want to be left. Taking care of kids. Yeah. So he sort of pressured me to go in the follow me. Yeah. And, you know, with with all the arrangements and the baby with was fine, and you were in position, so nobody saw any problem with that. And Dr. Stall said, Look, we’ll give you pit, if it doesn’t work. You could go home and your weight of it works, then you’ll have your baby.
P: How far from the due date?
L: Pretty close to close? But I think babies gain most of their weight the last two weeks, yes, three weeks.
P: According to the american…
L: And the other doctor told me that you were smaller than than the other two users. Oh, you had only bruisers. We don’t want that. You know, that kind of, you know, attitude. So he said it’ll be easier on you and get on everybody. And he was he was always concerned about you know, problems with the umbilical cord and all that kind of thing. He was trying to scare me into certain things.
P: Yeah.
L: You know, so when I said that’s the only time she could come. What am I going to do? Yeah, I didn’t know anybody here either at a new place. Yeah. So I couldn’t get somebody else to come in and help me and I wouldn’t trust a new sitter to come and take care of the two kids. That’s how we did it. I went in. They gave me pit and, you know, I had you
P: and how was that delivery?
L: Fine, and I had the epidural, and you came out and there is no worry about the umbilical cord or whatever. But you were seven pounds six pounds. Okay. Yeah. So you were much smaller than my other two.
P: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
L: So, so by the fourth one, I lay down the law I said I’m not coming in You know what, this baby is going to tell me when it’s coming in and I’m not coming in at all. So until it until it’s it’s time, but this you know, the fourth one of course I had the amniocentesis
P: wait so let’s go go slowly. Then the fourth one because there’s a big gap between me and the next one.
L: Yes, you came out. Everything was fine. You’re beautiful. You’re healthy and and it was like three and a half hours. An hour off.
P: You’re shaving off the hours that well done.
L: Yes. Three days in the hospital that out? Yeah, that’s not too bad. Yeah, yeah. Well, I was fine. If everything is fine. You know, and how we’re
P: we’re still doing formula but now we’re doing plastic diapers is my guess.
L: Yes. Okay. Yes.
P: Okay. Yeah. And then there’s an eight year gap between me and the next one. Right. So that one is a surprise.
L: Yeah,
P: were you 35 for that one?
L: I turned 35. in December. She was born in January.
P: Yeah, so you just turned 35 But nowadays, they call the geriatric pregnancy
L: I know, but yet a lot of people have them this late.
P: No, I’m not saying they’re right. I’m just saying what was the reaction? Were you older at the time to be having another baby?
L: You know what, after the three normal births and I never had any problems or issues my obstetrician wasn’t worried.
P: Let’s talk for a second about how different it was between the first and the fourth. Okay, for the first year 21 of your child and for your 35 so
L: 3434 Because that’s my whole pregnancy. was when I was 34.
P: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, that’s a good point. So 34 for the second one. How much has the doctor’s office changed? And do you get a home kit for this one to know that you’re pregnant?
L: Well, I went in and they did the test. Okay. I didn’t get home. They didn’t take it at home. And he he examines you so he knows right away that you’re pregnant,
P: but did you go because you felt nauseous? Or what was your
L: I had the same thing and I just, you know, I said, I’m pregnant. You know, I knew that after we were out in the motel once we got a rental and moved into the house I was looking for an obstetrician. And it was funny because we we met the obstetrician at one of the doctors parties, and he bumped into me and he spilled a drink on my dress. I got so upset because I sewed it. I made the dress and it was a pregnancy. Yeah, very elegant dress. And he says, Oh, he says I’m so sorry. He says, please send it to cleaners. I will pay for it. Don’t worry about it. And he introduced himself and they said, I see you’re pregnant. He says who you’re going to
I say don’t have an obstetrician. A pretty good one. It was very, very sweet and very, ebbullient genuine
P: I hope you looked around the party to see if he wasn’t spilling drinks on everyone and that wasn’t
L: no and I asked around and they knew there were three of them. The other guy was his brother in law. And another guy but he was cold. I didn’t care for him. He was a good technician. Like cold.
P: Yeah,
L: that’s how I met sigh and then I you know like you fall in love with your obstetrician. He was one of those guys that so, so nice. You know so caring.
P: In this taped conversation i didn’t press to know more about the idea that someone would “fall in love with their obstetrician”, but I called her back to ask about that, and it sounds like this doctor was very solicitious when it came to my mother’s care. If she brought some fear up in her appointment, he’d call her a few days later to check on her. I’m guessing that this kind of special treatment is a reflection of the fact that she is a doctor’s wife, and when she says “fall in love” I think she means, you form a real emotional attachment to someone taking such good care of you during this vulnerable period
L: When I got pregnant the fourth time grandma just seated Him with all these What if something is wrong? What if you know, baby has such and such whatever so dad said you know we are taking a big chance we always throw the dice when we have kids.
P: Yeah.
L: You don’t know there’s no test. There’s nothing and I said you know what? Whatever happens, I will take care of it. You don’t have to do anything. You haven’t done any You haven’t changed a diaper you have the baby.
P: Good news. More of the same
L: what’s the Difference. What’s the difference? I said this is what what I’ll be doing again. I would love to have another child.
P: I’m guessing he because he was worried about the baby big do an amnio?
L: Well, that’s why I went back to Sy and I said look, Hank is up to the very upset about it. So is there anything I could have as a test to see if everything is okay with the baby. So at that time, that procedure was just coming out and insert that big long needle and draw the fluid out. And you know his story. He did it the first time with all the students around and dad was there front and center to watch him and he drew blood And everybody gasped and he took the needle out real fast dad was so white they walked him out.
P: his concern is that if you draw blood, it’s an increased chance of aborting the fetus
L: aborting Yeah. So he begged me when he could do it again. And carefully because he’s working with the monitor.
P: Yeah.
L: To see wherever it is. And he just to insert the needle again. And he said he promised it would be quick turnaround to the students and he said I don’t want to sound or else out of here. You know, yeah, I didn’t want anybody saying anything. So since I was already there, I said just do it because it would ease so much other things.
P: Yeah,
L: at home. So he did it and it worked really well smoothly. But he told Dad, to drive as fast as he can. put me to bed, put my feet up and not to move for a whole day.
P: Okay.
L: 24 hours. So once I pass that it became sort of safer, that I’m not aborting. Okay, but I would have been would have been very upset.
P: How far along were you?
L: I think it was three and a half or four months at that point and that was so hard for now. was later on? Yeah. It was wait. It wasn’t like six weeks?
P: Yeah, yeah, that’s like 16 weeks. And at this point you’re probably showing earlier because you already have three kids.
L: Right, right. Right. So and we had a wait for a month.
P: Or oh my god that’s crazy
L: I was ready to just just scream by the time it came. And at the same time dad got the Tay Sachs We never did the Tay Sachs and we should have done it for the other two because we are both European jews
P: Yeah, you mean he just got the test for it while you’re waiting for the amnio .
L: Yeah, yeah. And they said you want to do what do what tests? No, I’m having big tests. Like,
P: was he negative?
L: Yeah, if he’s negative, I’m okay.
P: So Tay Sachs is a terrible disease that causes all kinds of problems for babies who usually die by the age of five. Anyone can be a carrier for this genetic disease, but it’s much more common in Jews of European discent…about 1 in 27 people in this category are carriers, carriers don’t have symptoms, and to pass the disease on, both parents have to be carriers. if both parents have the genes, the baby has a one in four chance of having the disease–
L: yeah, yeah. So that’s that we did that that time.
P: When you get the annual results, is it a letter in the mail?
L: Oh, with the whole packet. Sy got the report, too. But he called me in because he didn’t want to say it on the phone. I was so nervous and he gave me a kiss on the cheek. He says everything is fine.
P: Oh, good. Okay, good.
L: Yeah, yeah. So until until I got the whole report. And they had the X chromosomes, you know everything. I have the whole report. I want to see that. That’s cool. And of course told the sex of the child but I never told anybody. So we made a pack. Nobody knows.
P: You and dad knew.
L: Of course it’s on the test. So that’s a secret you definitely kept from us.
P: I remember saying if it’s a boy, I’m gonna send it back.
L: I was like, sister, I remember being pan I was so excited. I was so excited that you’re going to have a sister never told her friend nothing. I was very excited. And after four months, I finally was able to enjoy the pregnancy.
P: Yeah, it sounds like you enjoyed all of them to some degree.
L: Well, the first first three months were Yeah. And I’d had every, every one of them exactly the same. Nope, nothing changed about one and four. So once after that, it was it was very, very nice.
P: But now it seems like you’re wading into technology in that you have an end of this time you have a definitive blood test to find out that you are pregnant, and did not have ultrasound or you did no,
L: we still didn’t have ultrasound, we still didn’t have
P: so what’s the scan that the OB uses to do the amnio?
L: He’s connected to a screen and everything at that point. But in the doctor’s office, we don’t have that
P: so that they have ultrasound there just for this test.
L: Yes. Just to see where he’s putting the needle and
P: it’s not regularly available so people aren’t getting this.
L: No, no, this is all new. This was all new. That’s why all the students were there. Learning. We were right on the foreground with this test.
P: That’s amazing. And then I remember I remember going to the hospital so you must have started started having contractions
L: on the 16th of January.
P: Yeah,
L: he said on the 16th of January. I woke up with
P: Wow.
L: Go figure
P: nowadays, if you have contractions they say don’t come to the hospital until two minutes apart. Where they tell you
L: Yeah, well the thing is, I went to the office first. Perfect. And he says yes, you’re in labor. But he said you can’t go to the hospital yet. But you have to, you know, wait till till they’re closer. But there was a blizzard coming,
P: I remember that.
L: When I went further along, went to the hospital because his partner was there. So he said to you and he said you better hurry up because ready
P: Wow.
L: So Sy had to zip out and go to the delivery and he broke the water. Okay, just was the final thing and boy that was it. Was a very hard labor. It really came on very, very strong, much stronger than then with you. Or Teddy.
P: How long were you labor for?
L: three hours
P: Oh, okay, so still is almost the same length as mine. Yeah, and no Pitocin I’m assuming
L: no, no. Pitocin and the thing is, by the time he gave me the epidural on the delivery table, yeah, not in the unit. You know when you check in, but um, delivery table, and then she was born and I don’t think the epidural even took effect.
P: Yeah, yeah, it’s too late. Yeah,
L: I felt everything. But everything was was nice. And so I was so happy because the umbilical cord was so short. Which was good because I worry about wrapped up in everything. And he kissed his babies when they were delivered. If it always gets the babies, and he had he had students there. this time? Not the last time but it was great. What’s good.
P: So, so two questions. One is dad is never in the delivery room.
L: No, he didn’t want to go in. He went in with Dr. Cheek with Josh. Okay. And I was in such pain with the contractions and he gave me the laughing gas because the epidural had worn off hours before and when he gave me laughing guess, Dr. Cheek said. You’re not helping at all leave. And he kicked him out
P: It wasn’t common to have the husband in the delivery room or was not. No, it
L: it wasn’t common. The fathers so we sat outside but since he was a doctor, they let him in. Yeah, yeah. But each time after that when they said you want to come in. That’s it? No. Wait outside.
P: Yeah, that’s helpful. Okay. Yeah. And then no female gynecologist were to be seen
L: at that point. No. No, all of them were men. Yeah. All of them were men.
P: so I was curious about this and looked it up: according to the LA times, in the 1970s roughly 7% of gynecologists were women…now its 59%, so what my mom was saying is true, pretty much all of them were men
P: so you seem like you have changed a lot over the course of those four births in that you were such a like deer in the headlights for the first one.
L: oh definitely, are you kidding
P: Right and you just didn’t know how any of it was gonna go right. You know how what pregnancy would be like and what were 50 like and
L: and they didn’t have those classes to come into the hospital. expecting parents to come in and be take you on a tour. This is where the delivery this is whatever. And you certainly didn’t have any lamaze classes. Let’s put it that way. Yeah,
P: yeah. By the time the last one was born, there were like breathing glasses and stuff, right?
L: Yeah, yes. Yeah.
P: You didn’t want to go
L: you know, was my fourth one. You know, I knew what to expect.
P: Yeah. Yeah.
L: And I felt very comfortable in my obstetrician.
P: Yeah, God, you’ve had quite a ride.
L: Yeah, yeah. I got stronger and more confident of telling them what I want. Like, like the last one.
P: It more assertive yah, yah,
Thanks again to my mother for sharing her story and for hanging out with me on Thanksgiving. Women of her generation seem very strong to me, to deal with the massive uncertainty of this process with much less than future generations would enjoy. One thing we didn’t talk much about was the postpartum period, and when I called my mom back to see if I’d missed anything, she said, that there were no lactation specialists…the nurse helped you with breastfeeding in the hospital and then if everything seemed okay, you were sent on your way and the doctor didn’t check you out again until six weeks later…although so much has changed around pregnancy and birth, not enough has changed around postpartum care, since it looks very similar today to what it looked like 50 years ago…that’s a frontier to work on for sure.
Thanks for listening. If you liked the show, feel free to share it with friends.
We’ll be back next week with another inspiring story
Episode 36: Stroke in Pregnancy, A Postpartum Tale: Lauren’s Story
Episode 36 SN: Stroke in Pregnancy, A post partum Tale: Lauren’s story
Lots of different inputs go into the project of starting a family; for many of us this includes a host of doctors: fertility doctors and OBs and anesthesiologists…and for today’s guest that list is even longer, extended to include pain doctors and ER doctors and neurologists because she had a stroke after her delivery. Some of the doctors who participated in her project did so because the symptoms she suffered after the delivery were attributed to a spinal headache instead of a stroke. Her’s is a story of amazing amounts of resilience and an inspiring amount of overcoming and it’s also one that highlights some of the glaring holes in the medical system.
If you are looking for Lauren’s work, you can find her book, Why She Wrote here, and her podcast, Bonnets at Dawn, here.
Birth control and blood clots
https://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-methods-blood-clot-risk
Serena Williams birth story
https://www.vogue.com/article/serena-williams-vogue-cover-interview-february-2018
Racial disparities in pain managment
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4843483/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29688509/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6905121/#R7
Audio Transcript
Paulette: Hi, Welcome to War Stories from the Womb. I’m your host Paulette Kamenecka. I’m an economist and a writer, and the mother of two girls. Lots of different inputs go into the project of starting a family. For many of us this includes a host of doctors: fertility doctors and OBs and anesthesiologists…and for today’s guest that list is even longer, extended to include pain doctors and ER doctors and neurologists because she had a stroke after her delivery. Some of the doctors who participated in her project did so because the symptoms she suffered after the delivery were attributed to a spinal headache instead of a stroke. Her’s is a story of amazing amounts of resilience and an inspiring amount of overcoming and it’s also one that highlights some of the glaring holes in the medical system.
After our conversation I spoke with an assistant professor of neurology to walk us through some of the medical things that come up.
Let’s get to the story.
P: Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Could you tell us your name and where you’re from?
Lauren: Sure. Thank you for having me. My name is Lauren Burke, and I am from Chicago, Illinois.
P: That’s fun. So I lived there for many years. Where do you live?
L: I’m a life long northsider
P: Oh nice….So let’s talk about pregnancy before you got pregnant, I’m wondering, what did you imagine pregnancy would be like?
L: So here’s something kind of weird. I was not going to have kids, I decided. So I was sort of like, you know what, I don’t know if this is going to be the right track for me. And that’s partially because I had had so many friends who just had terrible experiences. And then also I live in the city and a writer, money just like that. That whole situation. So I was like, You know what, I don’t think that that is going to be the right scene for me. I was terrified. of childbirth, as well. completely terrified of it. I think this was like my late 20s.
I had done this thing where I was like, You know what, I need to get in better shape and have this like cystic acne that keeps recurring and I keep trying everything and let me like, just really work out really hard. And let me go to the dermatologist and get all of these things under control before I’m 30 this was like my goal. It’s like I have all these goals before 30. So I went to the dermatologist and she was like, Okay, I’m actually let’s put you on Yaz. And that will clean up your sleep that.
P: What’s that?
L: So yes, is a birth control.
P: Okay
L: Because she was like, you know, the reason why nothing has been working for you, is because it’s hormonal. So let’s get you on birth control. And then exactly six weeks later that my follow up appointment. That day, I was feeling really weird. I was like, out of breath. I was really dizzy. My friend actually offered me a ride like out of nowhere. Just offered me a ride to the doctor’s office cuz she was like you You seem kind of weird last night. So do you need a ride? I was like yes. Please. So we go to the doctor’s office, and she’s like, well, your skin looks great, but something’s going on with you. And she sent me to the ER, and I was having a pulmonary embolism.
P: Oh my god.
L: Blood clots everywhere. is basically how the nurse came back and she was like, yeah, they’re in your legs. They’re in your lungs. They’re all over.
P: Oh my god.
L: Yeah. So I was hospitalized.
P: I brought question about the link between birth control and blood clots to neurologist today. I’m excited to have Dr. Nichols sir on the show. She’s an Assistant Professor of Clinical neurology from the Miller School of Medicine at the University of Miami. Dr. Sir, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Dr. Sur: It’s my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Why birth control create the risk for blood clots.
Dr. Sur: So the risk there is really due to the to the hormones, mostly estrogen so birth control are basically hormonal pills and there are estrogen in the birth control. There’s estrogen and progesterone, which is another hormone birth control. And the risk mostly comes from the actual estrogen because estrogen increases the concentration of clotting factors in the blood when there’s increased concentration of clotting factors, the blood can be more prone to clotting.
P: So estrogen is sending signals to your bone marrow to make more clotting factors.
Dr. Sur: That’s correct. That’s kind of the pathophysiology.
P: One thing I wanted to add here is that according to webmd, blood clots are rare even with birth control. The rate is something like a point three to 1% over 10 years, you’re at a higher risk for blood clots with pregnancy than you are with birth control. And that’s again because of hormonal shifts.
L: You know, I also had a pleurisy let’s call it so I had this irritation in my lungs and it was very painful. And there was like 12 hours of just pain. And it was really bad.
P: And that sounds like a 17th century problem.
L: Yes. Like it does. it’s so weird. And I was at Northwestern. So I had all these residents that kept coming in because they were like, Oh, this is this is interesting. We don’t see this every day. And after 12 hours of that, like turned on my husband. I was like, You know what, I think I can give birth because like, that was awful. I survived it. And I just like had this weird change of heart in the hospital. I was like, You know what, I think I want to be a mother. I want to take a kid to Disneyland. I don’t know what it is and she was like, Okay, let’s give this a couple of years and figure this all out.
P: Yeah,
L: at that point, that’s when I started sort of maybe eating up a little bit more on pregnancy and then I saw a ton of doctors because obviously I just had this PE and we needed to see if I had some sort of blood clotting condition or if it was just provoked by Yaz. And then what we needed to do so then. Yeah, so then I went on sort of like a fertility journey, which was a fun time.
P: Yeah, I mean, this will be this will be interesting if you actually did have to go through the fertility gauntlet went because I too, went through the fertility gauntlet at Northwestern.
L: Oh, did you? Yes. Oh, we’ve probably crossed paths. Yeah. Because that was a couple of years of going to various doctors, lots of blood tests. I did find in OB that really specialized in this and he was very much of the mind that it was provoked and that I could have a normal pregnancy we would probably put me on a low dose blood thinner. And he said like no epidural. So that was kind of my plan.
P: Wow.
L: And then I had sort of a journey getting pregnant because it was not happening. It was just not happening right away.
P: Yep.yep.
L: And then I had some miscarriages as well, which then kind of triggered the doctors because they’re like, Well, maybe she does have a blood clotting issue. Maybe this is related. They really wanted to kind of tie it back to that PE so there was a couple of years of just trying to figure out why I couldn’t carry on a pregnancy what was going on,
P: let’s go a little slower here for one second. So first positive pregnancy tests you are pretty excited right my friend in a miscarriage also I guess people say oh, you’re not supposed to say okay, at least you can get pregnant, but I’ve been trying for a year and a half. So for me, right for me to get was actually a big deal to get pregnant at all. Up until then there was no evidence that I could, yeah, did you have that feeling as well? Or were you was it still just
L: totally very excited? Yeah. Really? Just like, Yes, this is this is it at that point, too. We had just purchased our house, and I just really felt like the timing was right. I felt like I was at a good place with work. Like it just felt like the stars were aligning.
P: Yeah, yeah
L: super happy about it. And I think and I lost that baby. I think I was I mean it was like 13 weeks.
P: Uugh..that’s late
L: So it was late. It was late. And it sucked because I did definitely I told my mother of course first. Like a weekend was very much like don’t tell anyone.
P: So that’s a weird cultural thing. Right? I talked to a therapist who wrote her dissertation on the idea that we all I mean, I feel like my doctors told me Don’t tell anyone. So after the first trimester is over, Oh, for sure. But the therapist was like That’s nuts because you’re going to need support
L: and like in 11 weeks, I was like, this is fine.
P: Yeah, yeah, totally
L: So my family was like super excited. I had not told work yet. That was the only thing I was really nervous about because I was nervous about what are the one of the repercussions of this honestly, yeah. What projects will I have taken away from me?
P: Yeah,
L: was really the thought but that kind of sucked because then I had my miscarriage. And I had it on my birthday too, which was insane.
P: The gods have their backs turned. That’s not fair. That’s not cool
L: It was crazy. Not cool. Then I just kind of like politely ducked out of work. And I think everyone thought I just was going to celebrate an early birthday and no one had any idea it was going on. And then I just didn’t want to tell them and it just was kind of a whole awful awkward situation.
P: Yeah.
L: I was like, I need a few days off. It’s personal. I don’t want to talk about it
P: Yeah. Did you have support when that happened?
L: Yeah. And I think I’m the kind of person to like, I want I want to take care of everything. So I think with that miscarriage I kind of almost just powered through my friends were great. My family, they were great. My husband was great, but I kind of was just like, well, we’re just gonna carry on. We’re gonna soldier through
P: Yeah, yeah.
L; And I was almost feeling part of me was feeling almost a little positive because I was like, Well, I know I can get pregnant. Okay, so that’s a good thing. So we know that but what’s going on? You know, I can’t carry on this pregnancy. So yeah, but then I got pregnant again, probably two or three months after that.
P: That’s awesome.
L: That was great. Yeah. And that that was Audrey. So that is yeah, my daughter, so
P: oh Wow, good,
L: okay, that worked.
P: And so are you again, are you nervous for the first trimester or do you handle it differently?
L: Totally. Totally. Like, won’t tell a soul completely terrified. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I remember my husband’s a marathon runner.
P: Oh, wow.
L: And so I found out the day of the Chicago Marathon.
P: Oh, wow.
L: I woke up and was nauseous and felt like I had the flu. And it was like the first marathon I’d missed. Like, in 10…11 years. I was like, I can’t believe I can’t make it to your marathon today. And ended up being like his best time ever. And then he came back and I was like, I have not taken a pregnancy test. But I know that I’m pregnant. This is not the flu. And he was like, Okay, so let’s, yeah, we’re just gonna keep this one under wraps. But I went to the doctor immediately because of the the blood clotting issue. We knew that we had to we had to do a scan and we had to make sure that the you know, everything looked good. Because they were going to start me on a blood thinner pretty quickly. That was and that was, I think, yeah, maybe just a couple weeks after that. And then I was doing heparin shots twice daily.
P: Wow. So that sounds like they determine you did have a blood clotting issue.
L: This has been back and forth. This is the great mystery of me. Someday, someone will figure it out. But they were ruling that they didn’t think there was a blood clotting issue, but in case there was
P: okay,
L: we’re just gonna do it to be safe.
P: And for some reason because of this blood clotting issue and she you can’t have an epidural because your blood will pool while you’re laying there.
L: Yeah, so gosh, how did he describe it? So I will say this doctor who was like, Don’t do the epidural didn’t give me a ton of details. He was very much like, I remember him being very flippant. about it. He was like, Don’t do it. They don’t really work anyway. Just great for the hospital surveys. It was something along those lines. It was very flippant. He’s like don’t do it. It’s gonna mess everything up just as long as you don’t do the epidural, you’re fine. And then he had referred me to an OB who was a woman is great who’s still my OB. And I said, What do you think about this? And she’s like, actually, no, I’ve had women that have come in with the same thing. And her thought really was that you know, yaz, was the provoked the blood clots, and she’s like, honestly, we’re just doing this to be safe. I think you can still have the epidural. We’re going to you’re going to be on Heparin at that point in your pregnant pregnancy. And at that point, we will just time it out. We’ll try to time it out. So like you’re in between shots. Okay to give you the epidural
P: So, Quick question, Dr. Sur. Why are we concerned about the epidural if Lauren’s on Heparin?
Dr. Sur: It sounds like the issue there may have been because of the treatment, the way you treat blood clots circulating in the blood, especially if they’re enough to cause PE or pulmonary embolism. So a blood clot in the lung. So that’s treated with blood thinners. Or anticoagulation. So now the risk instead of clotting, the risk is then bleeding. And so it’s kind of weighing the risk of clotting versus bleeding. So so with an epidural, it’s essentially a spinal puncture so the risk is bleeding on anticoagulation
P: and then once you cross the first trimester, feeling better, how do we feel?
L: Feeling great, was traveling. I had some stuff going on for work. Still not telling anyone didn’t tell like partly what I told my best friend who was dabbling with but didn’t really tell a ton of people that I was pregnant until I started showing, honestly,
P: okay, that makes sense
L: Yeah. And then I was like, surprised.
P: And then how was the rest of the pregnancy?
L: Great, besides giving myself shots constantly, which was a pain in the butt, especially when I was traveling. Yeah. My pregnancy was fantastic. until like, the very end when I was just I was just sore all the time, obviously, like just normal stuff, but nothing. Nothing out of the ordinary. It was like very smooth sailing. I think that was one of the things that like, threw everyone off. Later on, because everything was so great blood pressure, great weight, great, like everything.
P: So how far did you make it? Did you make it to 40 weeks?
L: Yeah, so my daughter’s due date was June 11. And she was born on June 8.
P: Wow. So take us to the day like how do you know today’s the day what what happens to your house?
L: That Day was insane. There was recently an article about this, but I was actually that day on the phone between Northwestern and Blue Cross who was my insurer, because they were sort of arguing over the payment for a scan that I had when I was pregnant with the child that didn’t make it miscarriage. So they were like, Oh, we’re billing you full price because it ended in a miscarriage. And I was like, was pregnant when I had the scan.
P: That that’s nuts that insurance companies live in their own bizarre world. That could be a podcast itself, right.
L: it could be it absolutely could be. So I was going back and forth. And there was things that were coded incorrectly and and I was like, Can we code it correctly? Yeah. So it was back and forth with them for a really long time. And at one point, I had to leave the video conference and go to the bathroom and I just felt really weird. And I came back to the video conference, and I just was like, have you guys worked it out yet? And they were like, we’re still talking about the codes and bla bla and I sat down and my water just burst.
P: Oh, wow.
L: Like comedically, like like it was in a movie. And I said, Well, I have to go because my water has broken and I’m going to have a baby. So I really hope we can work this out at some point. And that was about four o’clock on a I think that was a Friday. And I was like, oh my god, I can’t believe this baby is coming like at rush hour or Yeah. And it’s so Adri now that I know her. I’m like, Yeah, you would do that.
P: That’s very funny. I hope we live close to Northwestern at this point
L: seven miles.
P: oh….that’s not close in Chicago
L: In Chicago traffic that is not close. And I was waiting I waited for my husband to come home. So he got on the metro and he was home pretty quickly gets home by five and we right at five like we get on the highway to go to Northwestern and we are just sitting in traffic for a while. Yeah, we got to the hospital around like 615 ish. Yeah, I want to say and everything was calm, like everything was just chill. It was very fun. It was fine.
P: were you having contractions?
L: they were far apart. Okay. But I had called my OB and I was on the phone with her nurse and she was like, why don’t you to come in right away? Because we need to get blood tests going and stuff like that. Yeah. And I was like, all right. I feel great. I feel fine. I’m just like in the car. Listening to music. I’m like, strolling into the hospital. Everything’s fine. I think until like seven 730 And that’s when the action just like hit me like a train.
P: uh Oh,
L: that’s when they were like, oh yeah, this birth is happening. Like very quickly. So I remember I was in sort of, you know, they bring you in that like first room, I guess. It’s like the triage. Like, yeah, at Northwestern, and then it’s just chill. And then it was around 730 I was like, oh contractions big time. Everything’s happening. And they’re like, Okay, let’s take you upstairs. To the mainstage with all the lights.
P: Yeah, yeah.
L: Yeah. And then contractions were coming very hard and very fast. And they had taken my blood as soon as I got in there because they wanted to know, you know, when was my last heparin shot?
P: Yeah.
L: The blood results were taking forever. I think they even took a second set of bloods at one point. We just weren’t getting the results inside. It just felt like it felt like forever. Yeah, just waiting and waiting and waiting. And I don’t know what time it was, but I was just like, can I have an epidural? Because this is happening. I thought, I’m going to give birth like soon and the OB wasn’t there yet. Because they’re like, It’s first time waiting on bloods like, just, you know, we’re just going to work through the pain and I was like, No, I think this baby’s like, coming tonight. And everyone thought I was crazy. But then I remember at one point a resident came in and she was like, it’s coming fast. Like this is actually quite fast like we do. We actually do need the doctor here very soon.
P: So that means you’re pretty dilated.
L: I was pretty dilated. I think I was about I was like like maybe 8 when results came back by then they just ran in the anesthesiologist. And at that point, I was having some pretty hardcore contractions. That is when I had my epidural, which kind of set off the chain of events that were not so great. So
P: yeah, I mean, that alone is pretty tricky, right? Because you’re you’re supposed to bend over and be still which is not relaxing. Right?
L: I could not be still at that point. Yeah. So I yeah, I remember sitting up on the bed. Really. It was, it was hard. And he’s doing the epidural and suddenly my right leg just like shot out. I said Starburst. Everyone was like what? And the anesthesiologist was not super kind. He came around and he said, Well, you should have told me that you had scoliosis. I was like, I don’t have scoliosis, to my knowledge. And he was like, Well, I think you do. And he’s like there’s a puncture. And you might have a spinal headache. Or you might not might be fine who knows? And then he just kind of left
P: Good Lord.
L: I was like, what happened there? And I felt really strange because obviously, the epidural didn’t take. I was leaking spinal fluid. Oh, so yeah, so it was dizzy. And I was still feeling everything. Yeah. Still just yeah, basically just gave natural childbirth. So yeah, I remember saying to the nurse, I don’t think that worked. And she was like, Oh, what happened there what was going on? Because he didn’t really communicate with anyone else in the room as far as like what had just happened. And so you know, she had to kind of go after him and was like, what, what’s going on? And, you know, we need to talk to the OB who still was not there at that point.
P: Yikes.
L: So it was kind of like loose chaos. Yeah, I was in a lot of pain. And I know they gave me something but I’m not sure what it was. At one point. And then, very soon after, it was just like, it was just time it was just time to give birth because it was just happening. Like, it was just like a freight train. It was crazy. So I gave birth at 2am. So you know how so? Yeah, it happened to start at like 730
P: that is fast…thats 10 hours…
L: Yeah, it was really, really fast. I remember to at one point, I looked at B nurse and I said, How many babies do you think you’ve delivered? And she was like, Oh, I just I couldn’t even I couldn’t even begin to tell you and I was like, Okay, we’re gonna do this because I’ve got to push. I’ve got to do it. And she was like, No, can you wait like 20 minutes? I was like, I absolutely cannot wait 20 minutes and she was like, okay, so then we just did it. And I didn’t push for very long. I pushed maybe maybe for an hour. I remember Audrey was actually on her way out like she was it was the last push. And the doctor came into the room and she goes, Oh, we have a baby.
P: Wow
L: We do. So yeah, so that was Santa to ham. All good. I felt very dizzy or really
P: are we doing anything. For the leaking spinal fluid, or do they patch you up or something?
L: I think at that point that OB had, did not know or was not briefed just yet as to what was going on. So we were just kind of carrying on as normal pretty much and then it wasn’t until they got me down into the room. I think it was like the head of anesthesiology came in and he was assessing me and he was like How are you feeling? I heard about what happened like what’s going on? And I was like, I just feel really dizzy. And he’s like, okay, he’s like no headache. No like no stiffness in your neck. No, like, no. I mean, I’m just completely out of it. I don’t know. I just had a baby. This might be normal.
P: yeah, Yeah.
L: And he was like, Okay, so we’re gonna continue to monitor you. And then I kind of knew it was serious, maybe like an hour or two later because I kept getting visits from like, anesthesiologists. I guess they kept coming in.
P: Yeah, that’s unnerving.
L: Yeah. And I was like, oh, something’s wrong, because I didn’t really know what a Dural puncture was right. I was like, I don’t know what went wrong like some spinal fluid leak. Does that mean it sounds bad? But yeah, no one’s freaking out. So yeah, it seems like this might resolve itself. And also when he left the room, he was so casual like, well, you might have a headache. So
P: okay, so what’s a dural puncture and how does it cause a headache?
Dr. Sur: So the way that an epidural is done they use a spinal needle so long needle and the needle is placed in between the vertebral bodies which are the you know, the bones that make up the spine. And in between the vertebral bodies you have a disc you pass the needle through this disc and through the spinal ligaments and into what’s called the epidural space. So this is outside of the dura, which is the membrane that covers the spinal cord. The idea is to not touch the dura, it’s to land the needle just before the dura and allow the medication to pass into the epidural space. The anesthesia numbs the pelvic area so that you don’t feel the pain of the delivery of the labor. It’s a very small space. And one of the risks is that the needle has passed too far and hits the actual dura. Then you’re in the compartment of fluid that bathes the spinal cord and bathes the spinal nerves with a Dural puncture. This is commonly done when patients have what’s called a lumbar puncture or a spinal tap. So the needle is intentionally passed through the dura to collect the cerebrospinal fluid or if that’s not the objective in an epidural anaesthetic, the CSF or cerebrospinal fluid leaks and that will change the pressure is dynamic around the spinal cord and within the skull, and that can cause a headache that low pressure can cause a headache.
L: I mean, I guess I’ll have a headache.
P: spinal fluids is one of those things that sounds like it needs to be on the inside. Yeah, any on the outside.
L: It seems it seems like a serious situation. But I just was like maybe this is okay, because everyone’s acting very calm about it until they were Yeah, yeah. Until about 5am. Yeah,
P: you’re dizzy laying down.
L: Yeah, and I tried. I was trying to explain it at one point like, like an old tube TV like when it sort of like blinks?
P: Yeah,
L: was kind of like what my vision was like, like it was like I couldn’t settle. Just kind of couldn’t focus on one thing. It was kind of like I was like blinking out a little bit. So that was an even lying down. So yeah, that was what I was experiencing at that moment. I told someone that I was like, I can’t really like, focus on you. Everything’s kind of going hazy. I felt like a plane that had been depressurized, I guess in a way just sort of like waving in the wind and weird that point they were like Okay, so we’re gonna try a couple of things. And this was also very complicated because I’m back on Heparin, now back on a blood thinner. And they’re like, Okay, we’ve got a timeout a couple of different treatments for you. So one was a sort of like hormonal therapy that I didn’t quite understand to hopefully patch up this leak, and the other was a blood patch. Which would they would take some of my blood and that they would create a clot. Yeah, and actually patch up the look. So I said okay, so we kind of had a time that out between heparin doses. Yeah. So they get me down there. And doing a blood patch with residents. My mom worked at a teaching hospital for years. My whole family is like in the medical profession like…love teaching hospitals. But here’s where one of the issues I had was like, I think we need to get someone really experienced in here. Yeah, this already went wrong sort of in the epidural stage, but they brought in a resident and they brought in a nurse and neither of them had done a blood patch before. So that was really tough. And also I was just super dehydrated. Getting blood from me, it was like impossible.
P: So your your veins were like collapsed.
L: Yeah,
P: yeah.
L: So I’m in there. And they’re even just trying to get a line in for this like hormonal therapy that they’re going to do and they couldn’t do it and I feel like this whole process should have been think they were like, Oh, it’ll be like an hour because we were also trying to time it out because they’re like, Well, you’ve got to feed the baby. So to feed the baby gotta get your blood shots. It’s a whole thing. But I think I was down there for about three or four hours.
P: Oh, wow.
L: It was them trying to get blood out. of me trying to get a vein and then the blood patch went wrong.
P: Well, I can imagine if you’re taking blood from someone with heparin, right, they’re putting out your clotting factors. So how’s that gonna work?
L: Yeah, yeah, it was all very tricky and like it just it was not going to work that time and they also just couldn’t even get enough blood from me at for that blood patch,
P: are all these attempts painful because your body has already been through the Marathon of getting birth. So
L: yeah, that was one of the worst things that’s ever happened to me, but that three or four hours I was down there because I was in a lot of pain. It’s basically another epidural is them going into your back with needles. So I had to be very still. Yeah, I just remember like everything in My body hurt and then I was also very, very dizzy and I just felt like I was going to pass out. And at the end of it when they were like, Well, we think we may have gotten it.
Because that was the other thing. They’re like, Okay, can you feel it here? Is it here or here? And I’m like, I can’t. I’m about to pass out. I don’t know what Yeah, I don’t know what’s left or what’s right at this point. But I remember at the end of that, just kind of like looking back in the room as they were wheeling me out and there was blood everywhere. Just everywhere. And I was like I feel like I was just butchered. I was completely butchered and I have no idea what happened in that room. I was trying to communicate with people to as far as like, what are we doing and what’s happening and what went wrong. And but I know at that point, I was not getting my words out very well.
P: I took this question about blood patches to Dr. Sur: In a perfect world. How does the blood patch work and how long do you think it would take?
Dr. Sur: So in a perfect world it shouldn’t take very long. What you do in a blood patch is that you you draw blood from the actual patient and then you insert the blood back into the epidural space with the idea that the clotting factors in the blood will patch up the leak, and so this is something that’s done it when a patient is suspected of having a low pressure headache from a CSF leak, typically after like a spinal tap, and when other conservative measures have been exhausted with really no improvement on the patient side then blood patches is considered
P: And your husband’s not allowed to be in there for this.
L: No, and he was with our daughter at the time. And also he I mean, he did leave for the epidural as well. And he didn’t know if he could handle it. And I was like if you can’t handle it, it’s cool. Just go at that point. I did want him to stay with our daughter. And yeah, I was like I don’t know if I’ll be able to come back and feed her because Yeah, who knows what’s gonna happen down there. And so I got back up to the room. And I just remember the nurse saying to me, Well, you took too long so we had to bottle feeder. I was like I didn’t take too long.
P: Yeah, no kidding, good lord.
L: So she was very disappointed that Audrey was not breastfed at that point. But it was what it was.
P: That’s another hobbyhorse I have about the pressure to breastfeed when other things are going on. Right right. We’re doing our best lady
L: I was like I’m trying I have no idea what’s happening.
P: I’m apparently donating all my blood out my back. So I don’t have time to Yeah, it’s not it’s kind of a bummer because you’re also emotionally fragile after all that right you are just given birth and you do have hormones swirling everywhere. And like be nice
L: I haven’t slept I have. Yeah, yeah. Been just freaked out as far as what’s going on. And I remember like they had Audrey at that point and I kind of went to lay down and I had a feeling that nothing worked. anesthesiologists had come in and they said, well, let’s see how that took. You know, let’s give it you know, a few hours. See how you feel. Hopefully, you know, you’ll feel better soon. I texted my best friend. I was like, Dude, I just want to let you know like things did not go well. I just I love you and I don’t know. I’m gonna make it out of here. It was like it was pretty like it was pretty dark at that point.
P: That’s really intense. Now, did they tell you like there’s a risk that that you’ll die from this or like, what why do you feel this way?
L: I think it was just everything that went down in that room like I’m trying so hard. I knew they didn’t get enough blood. I knew that it probably didn’t work. I felt like I hadn’t held up my end because when we were doing the blood patch they were very much like okay, we need you to communicate with us and tell us is it here is it here? Is it here is it here and I was like I just guys I don’t know. I don’t know where you should put the needle? I don’t know. And so
P: I don’t know if I could do that today. On coffee Right? Right even not even counting all the things that you went through. Like it’s just not that easy.
L: So I just felt like I had failed. That point. And I didn’t feel well. And I just was like this is not this is not good. Just so you know.
P: Yeah.
L: But then I went to sleep for like a minute. And I woke up and I was able to stand up and like walk around. Everyone was like really happy like I could see like OB was just like everyone looks so relieved. Like she’s walking. It’s okay. Looks like everything’s maybe going the way we want it to go. I did feel like pretty decent overnight. And so I was like okay, well maybe maybe I’m all right.
P: So less dizzy.
L: Less Dizzy was walking around, was talking fine. Like everything seemed okay. So they let me go home the next morning.
P: aaaahhh
L: So they said yep, we think you’re good. Go home. And it was crazy because it was like as soon as I got home as soon as I walked in the door. I was like, oh, no, something’s wrong. And I just again like the dizziness came back. I couldn’t focus I couldn’t see. I was very, very weak. And I just immediately had to go to bed and couldn’t move. The anesthesiologists. They wanted me to call like every couple hours, to sort of update them my condition. So that was kind of what the next I think the next 24 hours where I was calling them and I was like, I can’t get out of bed like I can’t move. I don’t know what’s going on. My neck was so stiff. Just I could I couldn’t turn my head.
P: Is this ringing a bell because the the senior anesthesiologist had said Do you have a stiff neck?
L: I know right. And I kept telling them that as like I have a stiff neck. What does that mean? Because I remember he said something about it.
P: So the anesthesiology team keeps asking Lauren about neck stiffness after the dural puncture were they looking for where’s that mean?
Dr. Sur: So that’s associated with infections of the meninges again, the infection of the dura for example, or the membrane that covers the brain and spinal cord. And there can be stiffness in something like meningitis.
L: And one guy I remember that I kept calling That night. he was like he was the guy manning the phones, I guess. he was like, well, I don’t know. I mean, you just gave birth.
And you gave birth pretty quick. It’s gotta be he probably just pulled a muscle. so that’s he’s like, that’s normal. it’s very normal. and I was like, well, I’m really weak. like I can’t make it to the bathroom like my husband was having to get me, you know, to the bathroom, which is like four feet out of our bedroom. And he was like well you just gave birth you lost a lot of God, I don’t know like just lay down and I don’t know.
I started having these insane like very intense headaches. I kept calling them back and I was like, my head is bursting. I don’t know what to do I seen lights like things are not going well. And they’re like, Okay, well you need caffeine. So we’re going to get you some caffeine, like some pills. Just drink soda, drink anything coffee, just get your your caffeine levels up. So that was like the start of the caffeine rush, which I think lasted for a long time.
And I was just and I was just high on caffeine.
P: This seems very bad because you haven’t slept. You’ve been through this ruinous thing.
Now they’re saying chug Mountain Dew. This feels wrong.
L: Yeah, yeah, it was It was wild. Yeah, it was wild. So yeah, so I’m caffeine. Still could barely move. My head was not right. My mom who thankfully at one point was a neuro nurse.
P: Wow.
L: She was ER for career but she also didn neuro as well. She was just like, This isn’t right. She’s like you got to stop calling These anesthesiologists we need to call just other doctors. And I literally was just like calling random doctors at Northwestern trying to get my you know my doctor my my OB like just anyone I could be just anyone I could and just sort of get them on the phone and explain to them like what was going on. So I think it was my primary care physician who was just like, okay, because this was like an info dump for her.
P: Yeah, yeah,
L: no idea what’s going on. And she was like, I want you to go to the Pain Center at Northwestern because maybe, like maybe something went wrong with this. And we just got to get you in there. Right away. And that was a whole situation of trying to get me scheduled to go into there and
P: but you can’t just show up right?
L: You can’t just show up, right. You can’t just show up. They have wait months for days. And yeah, I remember initially like we called and they were like, well we can get you in and you know, I’m like three weeks and they’re like no, she needs someone right now right now. So they were like okay, can you get here in like 20 minutes and we’re like, no, but we’ll try. Yeah. So I showed up and I probably got there 45 minutes later because of traffic.
P: Yeah,
L: this poor girl who was working the front desk. I think this was like her first day and I show up, I can barely move. And I’m like, I have this appointment. And she’s like, Oh, I’m so sorry. Like you missed it. And I think we can reschedule for like a few weeks and I’m sorry and she just like didn’t know what to do. And again I’m very much a person that doesn’t like, I don’t want to make a scene, but I just couldn’t like I couldn’t stop crying. And I don’t know why at that point. I just want to walk across the street and go to the ER but I was just like, I’m in so much pain. I don’t think anyone’s taking it seriously. I don’t know what to do.
And I was sobbing. And this woman who was in the waiting room goes, I don’t know what that woman has been through, but she can have my appointment, because this is wrong. Yeah,
P: that’s nice.
L: It was nice. So she was like she can have my appointment right now. Just get her to see a doctor right now. And the girl at the desk ran and grabbed a doctor and they brought me in and we did some X rays. We of course establish that the blood patch did not work. And so they said we’re going to do another blood patch, this time under X ray. So they did that and they’re like, You should feel like in an hour after we do this blood patch like you should feel relief. Like okay, so they do the blood patch it takes 15 minutes really, really quick. Yeah, 15 minutes tops. They put me in a room. Lay me down. And I felt like pretty decent when I was laying down at that point, and then they were like, Okay, we’ll give it an hour and then we’ll lift you up and we’ll see how you feel. gave it an hour. I get up and I’m just like, no. Still feel bad. So my neck hurts. I can’t, something’s wrong. They were just like, well, go home.
P: NOOO
L: Take some pills. Lay down. And again, this one doctor said, you know, you’ve just given birth. It’s a lot probably just stressed. I was at the point crying. I couldn’t really communicate very well. He was like, You’re just I mean, it basically was like you’re just hysterical. You’re hysterical woman. Who’s probably hurt her neck and childbirth. And yeah, there’s nothing we can do. Like we did the blood patch. It’s great. You’re gonna be fine. Just give it some time.
So I go home. And again, in terrible, terrible pain and I just start this round of phone calling again. Just calling people like something’s wrong. And I get on the phone with my OB nurse. I’m just explaining everything that happened to her and she was like, This is not right. Like none of this is right. And she’s like you need to go to the ER right now. And before before I had talked to her actually, what was something that was really crazy. There was another doctor I was talking to who had access the records from the Pain Center. Because he was like, Well, let me see what they said. Let me see. You know what the notes are and in the notes, the doctor who basically told me to just go home and lay down had said, You know what, her brain should be scanned for clots. That was not communicated to anyone that was not communicated to my primary care physician. It was not communicated to me it was not communicated to my OB we don’t
P: I don’t understand how it made it in the notes but not to anyone’s notice why it made no I didn’t he order things and if that’s what thought
L: unclear, that’s like a big question that I have big question. And I actually even called up the Pain Center and I mean I at this point was just like, just nuts. I just losing my mind and I said, you know, this is what this anesthesiologist told me. This isn’t the notes Was anyone going to tell me Was anyone going to tell me are you gonna call me and they were like, oh, yeah, we were, you know, he went he went out. He left he went to lunch. He hasn’t come back yet. But yeah, there’s an order here for you to go to the ER.
P: Oh my god. was we were telepathically sending you like yeah sending you
L: Yeah. And just it just was not communicated. So I was like, Okay, well, I’m going to the ER please send that order to the ER. FYI. Yeah. Um, and they were Yeah, and they were like, Okay, we’ll send it right now. cuz then I get to be er, and they’re like, We don’t have an order here. But thankfully, I had everything on my phone and they were like, Okay. And then a nurse came over the nurse that was assigned to me and she was about eight months pregnant. And at that point, I could barely move. I was just crying. I just handed her my phone. I was like, just read anything on here. I don’t I don’t know what to say. And I just remember like, she started to cry. She was like, she couldn’t hold it together. And I was like, Well, this is bad. I don’t know what what happened here, but this is all bad. And like, she brought me back she brought me back, you know, they were taking my blood pressure and doing all that stuff. And she just was like, disturbed as sort of my husband was kind of telling her what went down. And then they took me into another room and a doctor came in and we kind of went over everything but at that point, I was in so much pain. I was just gripping the hospital bed. And I was just my jaw was just like grind grinding, I couldn’t talk and my husband was doing all the talking for me. And the doctor was very straightforward. He’s like, Oh, yeah, she’s had a stroke. Yeah. What? He was like, Yeah, this is the stroke patient right here. No one knew that. I knew like he knew immediately. It was like two minutes in.
P: Good lord. Yeah.
L: And he was like all the signs were there. He was like, Oh yeah, the the weakness and she’s like weak on her left side and it’s yeah, the blinding headaches where she’s seeing lights and all of the things that you described. Yeah, she’s had a stroke.
P: can you tell us what happens in a stroke and why women are at higher risk during pregnancy and after delivery?
L: So a stroke is essentially a sudden, acute neurological deficit. One type of stroke is a clot in the venous system of the brain. So ischemic stroke is typically thought of a clot in the arterial system in the arteries of the brain. And then there’s the hemorrhagic types of stroke which is rupture of the arteries typically, and then there can be clotting within the veins of the brain that can also contribute to stroke the risk of that is higher. So in pregnant women, the risk of stroke is actually three times greater than in non pregnant women. of the same age. The risk is essentially in the peri partum period, and in the postpartum period of just up to six weeks after after the delivery. So she kind of was in that very high risk period of developing a stroke. In the peri partum and postpartum period,
P: because we have so much more blood volume or because of the estrogen, there’s a lot of clotting factors running around. why are we at higher risk?
Dr. Sur: So what it’s all related to the kind of physiological changes that happen during the delivery and so right after the delivery, essentially, the body is going into kind of clotting mode, because all of the blood vessels and all of the vasculature that fed the fetus is no longer necessary, and to prevent essentially postpartum hemorrhage or bleeding out from those vessels. They all have to kind of clot off and that’s why the uterus also contracts a lot immediately after the the delivery to try and then close off the vasculature to the uterus, which is no longer necessary once the fetus has been delivered. So you’re essentially in this pro thrombotic state where clotting factors are elevated and and so it’s, that’s why it’s a high risk period.
L: part of me was almost relieved, in a sense, because I was like, one believes that something’s wrong.
P: Yeah. Yeah, that was like that nurse was the first person to have a human reaction. To everything you’ve been going through, right?
L: Yes, absolutely. I think everyone else was very much like, she’s a problem. She keeps calling like, we just need to shuffle her off. And yeah, so he’s like, Yeah, we need to get her CAT scan, He’s like, Yeah, let’s get her in there. And see what’s going on. And so this was kind of almost funny. I mean, my husband and I laugh about it now, but I was like, I don’t know if I can go in there because I was in so much pain and I just needed something to like, hold on to
P: Yeah.
L: And so they’re like, Okay, we’re gonna give you something to calm you down. They were just like, is there any chance you could be pregnant? But absolutely.
P: good news…Yeah.
L: And they’re like, Are you sure? And I was like, I just had a baby like two days. ago. Yeah. And they’re like, Well, yeah, you know, sometimes people. I was like, they do not, they do not. I was like, I promise you. There is absolutely no way I’m pregnant. I said it maybe 15 times. They’re like alright, okay. So then they give me the Dilaudid and do the scan. And then after the scan, the next thing I remember as I was in the ICU, and I was hooked up to many machines, and there were lots of residents and we were talking about the stroke and how it had affected my right side. My right side was very weak. And my speech at that point was not good. And my neck was very stiff, and I couldn’t I couldn’t really move bad scene. And then I think it was like Audrey’s first appointment with a pediatrician. I can’t remember what time this was. I feel like it was like maybe two in the morning or something. And John was like, I’ve got to go take her to the pediatrician at 8am. And I was like, Okay, I was like, just go like, You should go.
He was a mess. So I was in the ICU for quite a while. Which is a weird thing I remember. Maybe it was the next day or the day after. They have an occupational therapist come in and they’re like, Okay, today we’re going to work on putting on socks and maybe taking a walk up and down the hall. Do you think about that and you’re like, wow, I have a little baby at home who I never seen. How am I gonna change a diaper?
P: Yeah,
L: you know how to put on my socks. So yeah, so that was a thing and I was just trying to push through and I was I was in there as like you know what, I’m gonna just I’m gonna beat it. I’m gonna put on my socks. I’m gonna like run around in the hallways. I’m gonna show them that I’m like, I’m fine. But it was very much not fine. So then finally I get to a step down, ICU. And just so many tests, so many things. are going on. So many people are talking around me, including all of the residents of the neuro like it’s, but no one’s talking to me.
P: Yeah,
L: essentially, which I think, say the first five days in the hospital. That was pretty much the case. I was in a lot of pain. And I didn’t know what the source of the pain was. And again, I kept talking to them like, Oh, my, it really hurts at the epidural site, like it’s I’m really, like really sore, and they’re like, Yeah, you’re gonna be sore. And I’m like, I still can’t move my neck like what’s going on with my neck? And they’re like, oh, you know, the patch is sealed. Like we’re getting your blood under control. Like, let’s, we’ll see it just like no answers. And I remember I hadn’t slept for days. It was again middle of the night. And this nurse comes in and I just was like I said before you do anything, like we need to have talk as like, I just need I need someone on my side. And I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I don’t know if this is normal. Do you know if it’s normal, but I’m in so much pain, and I just feel like I just I’ve just I feel like I’m gonna die tonight. Like, this is really bad. And she was like, okay, she’s like, first of all, let’s get a scan because they wanted to make sure I didn’t have a bleed and my brain scan comes out like normal. You know, there’s clots in your brain. But nothing’s bleeding.
So, blah, you’re fine. She comes back. And she’s like, well, you know, do you feel better? What do you think what, you know, this is what happened. They said, You know, it’s the same. I’m like, something is wrong. Like, I can’t I can’t move. And she was like, well, has anyone given you like Gabapentin and I’m like, no, like, I’m just on like, Tylenol.
P: Oh my god.
L: And she was like, Okay. And so she like, grabs a doctor and she’s having this conversation with him. And I hear them get into an argument in the hallway where she’s like, just try it. Like it’s not gonna hurt her. Why can’t we just try it? She’s in a lot of pain. She can’t move. She can barely talk to us. This is insane. And he’s like, Fine, whatever. And he approves it. And I felt like the Gabapentin had saved my life. Like as soon as I started it, I felt like I was just a stone, just like a statue before it was so everything was so tight. I couldn’t move anything. And then as I was taking gabapentin, as I was sort of like ramped up on it, it suddenly like move again. And I could talk and suddenly I was like myself and I told that to one of the doctors. And he was like, oh, you know what, now that we think about it. So where the blood clots were in my brain, it was sort of blocking the blood flow from like, just guess exiting your brain and that pressure was building up and it was putting pressure on my nerves. So that’s why I couldn’t couldn’t move my neck. So it was all that pressure. And he’s like, yeah, he’s like, I guess that would be painful.
P: Oh, my God. Now that we think of it, yeah, what were we doing last few days?
L: What were we doing? What were we doing? And I know I’ve read all of my my notes, which I requested from Northwestern and I had hundreds of pages of them. And it’s marked in the chart like the difference there like oh, one day she was just gripping, but could not get up, gripping the side of the hospital bed, would not move and would barely communicate. And literally the next day was standing up and was talking to us like okay, what’s going on guys? What’s happening?
So yeah, it’s like in the charts and it was just wild. And then the hospital experience was very different after the Gabapentin I was like, I’m taking control of this situation. Yeah, I was quite motivated. I had a lot of adrenaline in a sense, like, especially after that Gabapentin. It was like, Yeah, after that change. I was just like, Oh, I’m taking control of this whole situation, and I’m going to be fine. And you guys need to all tell me like how I need to get there. Yeah, one of the things I need to do I need to lift weights do I need to get on the treadmill every day for 30? Like I was just like, we’re gonna do this because I couldn’t figure out how life was gonna be with my daughter especially in those first six months. Or even the first three months when I had my new those clots were still in my brain. And what if a clot moves? Or what if my brain started bleeding? Yeah, I think that was really scary to me. I was really scared to be alone with my daughter for a really long time.
P: Yeah, that sounds super scary. And they just resolve on their own. Is that how we let that
L: be to the to us you’re Yeah, and you’re on the blood thinner until they resolve and mine did resolve this all went down in June. I believe I had my MRI, it was like late September. And they’re like, Okay, great. They’re gone. And I remember seeing my neurologist after that, and she was like, you’re really lucky that all just took away. It’s like they were never there. And I was like, Okay,
P: wow, that is amazing.
L: Yeah.
P: Ultimately, it was the epidural. That was the problem. Right.
L: And yeah, ultimately, what we found out was the epidural, of course, like set off that chain of events, so it was botched and then the blood patch. At one that was like a three hour blood. Yeah, ouch. Yeah. That was the one that sent those clots actually up into my brain. Wow. So instead of actually feeling that Leah, that’s where they went. And then the second blood patch is the one that finally patched it and sealed it, but at that point, stroke time.
P: good Lord, so it’s like all those compounding things. Right.
L: And it’s, it’s a wild situation, right? Like none of this is typical, but it was pretty crazy. I think. Also, it was really hard for like a lot of the anesthesiologists who were also residents that I was like calling and dealing with, was that the spinal headache symptoms are, I mean, they’re kind of similar to a stroke. And so they kept going to the spinal headache thing saying like, well, I don’t know the headache. Yeah. And she’s weak. She just gave birth. So they just kept deferring to that it never occurred to them, that there had been a stroke. I mean, I guess it It occurred to the guy at the Pain Center, but he didn’t say anything. But when I went to the ER and that doctor was just like, oh, yeah, she’s had a stroke. Like, guys, come on.
P: Yeah. Yeah. Because you passed through many hands before you got there.
L: Yeah, they didn’t realize that was the thing.
P: Let’s now reflect on the things that we have learned from this unbelievably traumatic experience. Yeah. If you could go back. What would you tell younger you and what do you take from this experience?
L: Well, I think it’s been more of an advocate for myself in those situations, which is hard. It’s really hard with a doctor because they’re the expert, right? They went to school for so long. They’ve been doing this forever. They’ve seen so many people, but I do think, especially in this case, a lot of people were very disconnected from me as a person. And they didn’t see me as a person. They saw me as problem. And remember, even we’ll say I was about seven months pregnant somewhere around there. Saw that Serena Williams Vogue story about her childbirth experience.
P: In case you missed it, Serena Williams gave birth and 2018. The day after the birth she became short of breath, and she worried that it was a clotting issue, given that she had a serious blood clot in her lungs in 2011 that required emergency care. The shortness of breath she felt after the birth very much reminded her of that earlier experience. When she tried to get help for it. She was dismissed numerous times by medical people around her. Ultimately, they found that she did in fact have a blood clot in her lungs
L: and I remember taking that into my doctor’s office, because I was terrified when I read that story. And I was like, Oh God, what if this happens to me, I’ve had this you know, clotting issue like this could easily happen to me and still get in there. And like how do we make this not happen? Like have you read this and I will say that I was easily dismissed was like, ah, that won’t happen to you. This is not the same blah, blah, blah just kind of brushed it off.
P: How can it not be the same? I mean, I I definitely had a fear of God reaction to that in that Williams is beloved famous, wealthy. You know, right, powerful. If she can’t make it happen. How’s anyone else gonna make it happen?
L; I know. No. And I just was like, how do we like I just was like, how do we learn from this? I learned from this Yeah. And I remember everyone be like, It’s fine. Don’t worry about it. Just just, you know, just trust us is basically what was the message? And I think in all of that, and especially in those two days, when I was just calling people and I wanted to believe those anesthesiologists who were saying, like, just lay down, like, just lay down. You know, you’re gonna feel great after hours asleep, like taking ibuprofen, like it’d be fine. And I really wanted to believe that but I knew something was wrong. And I think I should have been in that moment, a stronger advocate for myself, I should have just gone immediately to the ER and been like something is wrong. I really should have listened to that inner voice because it was right. Yeah, essentially.
P: Yeah.
L: So that has been what I’ve really taken into my healthcare practice today is Yeah, I do treat it almost like a business. I don’t feel like I should have to but when I do go to the doctor. I mean, I bring a notebook. They document a lot of things. Yeah. And I run it like a meeting. And I talk a lot. Yeah, and I ask people to clarify things and repeat things. Some doctors don’t care for it, but some are absolutely fine with it, especially once they have seen my medical history.
P: Yeah, yeah.
L: They actually are okay. And I feel like I’ve had a much different experience now. And I’ve even been really upfront with some doctors where I’d say like, listen, it feels like you’re sort of brushing me off right now and I have not had a great past. So can we go over this again? Or do you think maybe I would be a better fit with someone else? And some people are they really, you know, change after you are that direct? They really start to see this more as a partnership. Oh, that’s been really beneficial.
P: I’m gonna steal that language that that is a really good way to say it and to get their attention apparently, right.
L: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I get it too, especially now. I mean, with COVID Everyone’s stressed out. Everyone’s been working too much. Again, family, they’re all nurses. My some of my best friends. It’s a high pressure situation. So I have a lot of respect for them. But also, I’m just like, I’m gonna need you to give me time and your full time and attention right now.
P: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m glad that you’re back. Thank you. We’ve recovered everything that’s awesome. And inspiring. And what is your three year old into now?
L: Oh, gosh, DC Superhero Girls loves that. Yes. Loves the cape just runs around back and forth. Bubbles. Wow. Bubbles are a hit. But if you Yeah, she’s very cute. She’s very, very active. She’s always just yeah, she’s on time. She’s early. She’s ready to go up every day at seven o’clock. Just like what do we do and where are we going?
P: Very cute. that does sound like the baby who comes in 10 hours instead of 23.
L: Yeah, exactly.
P: Well, Lauren, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. And I think if I’m right when we talked in the very beginning of this, you’re a writer so you’re sharing stories all the time, right?
L: I am indeed. You know what’s insane is that when I was in the hospital, I had had this like book proposal that was just on my desktop at home and I got home I was like, I’m gonna send this off. And I wrote a very cocky proposal letter and I was like, You should publish this book because it’s great. And then the publisher responded like seven hours later and they said, Okay, we will. So yeah, that you know, near death, adrenaline that was going through me,
P: that’s awesome
L: But yeah, I have a podcast called bonnets of dawn, which is about 18th 19th and 20th century women writers. And then my book is called why she wrote and it is about 18th 19th and 20th century women writers.
P: That’s super cool. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for sharing your story.
L: Yeah, thank you for having me.
P: So thanks again to Dr. Sur for sharing her medical insights…and thanks to Lauren for sharing what is a really important story. Likely we will never know the full picture of what happened; how did so many people fail to show a requisite amount of interest in her experience, how did so many lack real curiosity about her case…it’s hard to get your mind around.
It’s possible that when so many people brushed past her complaints about pain and told her to just go and lie down it’s a reflection of, among other things, a cultural view of women after birth, and in Lauren’s case, maybe also how the medical establishment views not just women but especially black women. There’s a fair amount of literature documenting the fact that black patient’s pain is often managed differently than pain for white patients . It feels wildly unfair that one of the take aways from Lauren’s experience is that after you’ve birthed a baby and your body is wrung out, you are responsible not only for this new human being’s survival, but also your own advocacy…please share this story with friends, because even though it feels like too much to ask, it’s where we are today.
Thanks for listening,
We’ll be back soon with another story of overcoming.
Episode 33: The Hard Limits of Control Over your Own Body: Melissa’s story
