Episode 65SN: To Magazine, or Not to Magazine: Corinne’s birth story

P: Hi, Thanks for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from.

Corinne: Sure. My name is Corinne O’ Shaughnessy. I am not really from anywhere but I’ve I’ve lived in New York City the last 30 plus years but I’ve been living in Mexico for the last six months.

P: Wow, that’s fine as your Spanish.

C:  It’s not nearly where I’d love it to be. But it’s definitely better than when I arrived.

P: That’s awesome. Wow, I’m totally jealous. Yeah, so we’ll talk about the family that you have created. But let’s also talk about the family you came from. So you did you grew up with siblings?

C: I did. I am a I’m the seventh child. So I’m the youngest. Yeah, 

P: wow. 

C: Yeah.

P: That feels like an accomplishment in itself. Growing up with how many siblings did you say i This is the kind of family I want. I want to have a lot of kids.

C: You know, I knew from a very young age that I definitely wanted children. I definitely knew that seven was a little much, but I had hoped for three or four.

P: How many years between all of you are you guys close together?

C: It was very, very, very close. Yeah, all seven. We’re about two years apart. 

P: Wow. Yeah. 

P: That’s seems kind of awesome. Was it chaotic? Or was it awful? Like,

C: it wasn’t so awesome. I would love to say that it was but my mother there’s a line and Hannah and Her Sisters. Like my parents loved having children. They weren’t very much interested in raising us. That’s kind of what that would explain my family as well.

P: How many what’s the gender? Right?

C: Yeah, that was a difficult thing to there were five girls that a boy than me. Another girl. So yeah.

P: Wow, that sounds like a busy house.

C: Yeah, it was definitely busy. Definitely.

P: So because you’re the last child, it seems like you don’t get to see your mother being pregnant.

C: No, definitely didn’t definitely did not.

P: So before you got pregnant, what ideas about pregnancy did you take to that event?

C: Well, my mother, interestingly, had multiple sclerosis. And after she had her second child, the doctor said don’t have any more. So then she had more

P: I’m also an autoimmune a member of the autoimmune club, but not that long. Okay. So some autoimmune conditions are made better by pregnancy and some are made worse.

C: Well, that was the thing. She felt much better when she was pregnant. Yeah. So she had very fond memories of being pregnant. And also, this was the 50s for the most part when she was pregnant. I was born in 60, the two oldest in the late 40s. But the whole you know, that’s when they still told women to smoke, so you wouldn’t gain weight. 

P: Wow, 

C: have a drink. No problem. My mother left martinis. So pregnancy was a whole different experience for her

P: God that’s super interesting, though, right? It’s totally different. Totally different. I interviewed my mother who’s about to be ad for the Thanksgiving episode. She was talking about how there was literally, I think her pregnancies with us which were in the 70s were the cusp of technology. 

C: Yeah. 

P: So for example, like there’s no pregnancy tests, so you know that you’re pregnant, because you don’t get your period again for a while. Right, right. Same thing.

C: Right. Exactly, exactly. It’s true.

P: So did you think pregnancy would be easy based on your mother’s experience?

C: I did and what was a little bit more shocking is that I thought birth would be easy, because I’m not kidding you. She told me she used to get very angry when there would be a show on TV and there’d be a woman giving birth either in the next room or you see their face, screaming and yelling and sweating. She’d go oh, it’s not like that. It’s not like that. I was reading a magazine When I gave birth to you. I went in thinking, well, if my mom who was not physically strong at all, had no problem, then this is going to be you know, maybe not a piece of cake, but I’ll certainly I’ll certainly be okay.

P: So before we get to your birth story, have we circled back with mom to say did you have ether or what what were you doing that made it?

C: I think she was knocked out. I mean, I mean, she was reading a magazine. I don’t know maybe or they certainly numbered from the waist down or something. But it also didn’t really portend well for how excited she was to have me in this world…

P: I bet it was a really important issue.

 

C: It’s like, wow, okay.

P: So that’s very funny. It’s a very interesting story to bring the pregnancy. Did you did you get pregnant easily?

C: Yeah, we actually, we weren’t trying. We were married and we wanted to have kids someday, but it was a little bit of a surprise.

P: So good. So at least that part’s easy check. Oh, yeah, that was super easy. And then what’s the pregnancy like? Is that also kind of straightforward?

C: It was straightforward. The the first three months I had just started teaching at a Bronx middle school. So I was exhausted beyond what I knew exhaustion existed. Like, I would come home and think I’m gonna grade some papers and I would pass out and like literally make up in a pool of drool. Yeah, that was that was something but by the mid point of the pregnancy, I felt I had a little more energy and I was very lucky. I didn’t have like throwing up or nausea stuff. Certain smells I didn’t love. But I was very lucky.

P: That’s awesome. So I know we’re going to talk about the birth so so let’s go to the day that your child was born. How do we know today’s the day like what Oh, and what did you What birth we were imagining you’re going to be reading a magazine?

C: No, I did not imagine that. But I imagined one with no drugs. Okay. Would you know because I had midwives. I was very fortunate to just accidentally sign up for a an OB GYN who used midwives. And I actually never even met my OB GYN because you only met her. If you had problems if you didn’t have problems you just stayed with the midwives. So I they had talked to both my husband and I a number of times about what your options are when you go into labor and all that sort of thing. And I was like, Oh, I’m gonna be fine. I’m no drugs. I’m natural. It’s all gonna be great. yeah

P: And so what happens is the day that your child is born,

C: so the day he was born, I had gone to pee was at this point. It was 10 days past my due date. 

P: Wow. 

C: And I had gone to the doctor the day before my midwives, and when I was sleeping, everything looked fine, but nothing is started yet. And I just I’ll never forget the receptionist giving me an appointment for the following week. I can’t go another week. Are you kidding? She’s like, Well, no. So the following day at night, I was crawling into bed. My husband was out Christmas shopping. This was right before Christmas. And I was in bed reading a magazine and liquid spurted out from between my legs and I thought oh great, my waters broken because I had the book What to Expect When You’re Expecting and I read that religiously, like over and over again. 

And I went to the bathroom and I was bleeding. And I looked that up and they’re like very dangerous. Call your doctor immediately and I was you know, obviously first child my mother was actually came down to be with me, which was great. And my husband had just gotten home and I think as soon as the liquid shot out, he’s like, you know, the midwives told me to get my rest so he went to sleep right away and I read that. So I called my midwife and she just talked to me and she said, I need to talk to you for a while I’m here your breathing. And she did everything by by listening to that. She goes you know, I think you’re okay. We don’t know why sometimes women bleed, but I think you’re okay. So just try to stay home, relax at home. It’s much easier there.

P: So how do we feel about this? Because if I’m bleeding 10 days after my due date, and someone says it seems like you’re fine. I’m gonna need more than that.

C: I was totally panicked. My mother and my husband actually had very similar personalities. They were both like, well, with the midwife says, you know, and they both went to sleep and I was panicking by myself. And then I I started to have the labor pains and those were like by the third labor pain, literally, I was like, Oh, I’m going to need drugs, and I’m going to need really strong ones really quickly. So I called my midwife back and I said, I’m in labor and she again, she talked me through it. She’s like, stay home stay home. I was like no, no, I really think I’m going to come in. And I woke my husband and my mother up and neither of them moved very quickly or thought anything was going on and we’re kinda like, yeah, you know, well, doesn’t she want it? And I was I was the one it was like, I gotta get to the hospital. And so we did we went to the hospital. Yeah,

P: I’m on  fire just listening. So I just I can’t even imagine, you know, someone moving slowly around me in that in what should be a fire drill?

C: Exactly. That’s what I was thinking. Absolutely.

P: So when you get to the hospital what happens?

C: So I got to the hospital, and by that time I was literally like drugs. I need drugs. I need drugs right away.

P: Corinne has written about this aspect of her birth experience, this part where she’s trying to manage her pain. Her piece is called apology and it’s sort of a love letter to her late husband. I thought I’d include an excerpt here to more fully flush out the change in her state of mind. So this is what she writes. I don’t even take aspirin. I told her midwives. Susan. I’m totally gone with natural. You, Susan and I were reviewing the drug options available while giving birth. The natural childbirth though Drugger was safest. For the baby. But not so easy on the mothers isn’t said not so easy for other mothers. I thought I’ll be fine. I was different my other girlfriends called when there were no men to help him move from dorm to rented van or apartment to apartment. I was clearly descended from peasant stock, not royalty. Some women opt for a painkiller like Demerol take the edge off. The mother still feels the contractions but it’s distanced Susan continued. distanced please try to make sense Susan I thought if you still feel pain, what’s the point? And then she cautioned, it can slow the contractions prolonging labor. Okay then really what’s the point? I’m going with natural I repeated. I don’t want to do anything that may harm the baby. I had a terrible bicycle accident a decade before I’ve been pedaling quickly home from a maids job and foolishly let my squeegee get caught and my front tire. I don’t remember falling or where I’ve been all day. I remember being aware I was sitting in the street blocking traffic. I knew blood was gushing from my face and I remember thinking stand up you’re causing a scene just get home. But I couldn’t find up. The doctors in the emergency room stitched up my face and told me I was in shock and had a deep concussion. How much worse could giving birth the I thought I says continue to explaining possibilities. I just want you to know all your options beforehand, Susan continued. You can also choose an epidural where a needle is inserted into the mother’s spine. It numbs her completely from the waist down. You knew how I felt about needles. An epidural was not on the table. I’m going to know drug route I announced again.

C: And she was like Well alright, we’ll give you a shot. We’ll hook you up to an IV. I’ll give you a shot of Demerol, but we really want you to stay on your feet. Well this was like 11 o’clock at night I just started to go to sleep for the first time actually by then it was about one morning and I was exhausted. I was like I need to lay down. So I laid down for a while and she gave me a shot at Demerol and I’ll never forget a woman came in you know people keep coming in the room to take information and she says What’s your job? And I was like, Well, I’m a teacher. And as the demo went through my veins I was like and I’m going to tell my kids don’t do crack do Demerol because it’s amazing. Because I was like so like I just remember the sensation of I’ve got to get out of my body. I have to get out of here. This body is not working for me anymore. It was just that like sticking your hand in a flame. It was like you have to get it out. And the Demerol took that Panic Away, which was amazing. And then I was I kept bleeding so they brought in a doctor because everyone else was a midwife to do a sonogram. And it was so interesting because as soon as a doctor walked in the whole mood and feeling in the room changed. But he did a sonogram. He said everything looks fine, you know we don’t need to do anything, even though they didn’t know why I was bleeding. And so I did that for a couple of hours. And then the demo wore off and my midwife came in and she goes you’re not dilated enough. You have to stand up you have to start walking around and I was just like, light and my husband picked me up held me up and we just kind of slow danced to to I Love Lucy reruns on the TV. I remember that. And I was so exhausted and I just kept I remember I kept biting his shoulder, because he said squeezed my hand but I didn’t have this strength. I didn’t realize how much strength it takes to be in pain. 

P: yeah

C: And it was just debilitating. So when I was biting him he kind of was like he said to the midwife Do you have a towel and he tried to put a towel on his shoulder and it’s like the towel and do it. I didn’t want to bite into a towel I needed his flesh and I remember sinking to the ground and just having my arms around his ankles and say I can’t do this and I was screaming for an epidural at that point and my midwife was like oh, just another 45 minutes but thank God in like, I don’t know how many more minutes I finally found felt the urge to push and once I could push everything was you know, everything was fine. It wasn’t easy, but it was way better than just being in labor and those horrible pains.

P: So you ended up not getting the epidural.

C: I didn’t get an epidural. I had one shot of Demerol, but I literally spent the whole time thinking, why isn’t the entire world made up of single children? I was just like no one in their right mind would ever do this again ever.

P: But but you have more than one child. 

C: I have two 

P: Okay, so we’ll get to the second one but so the birth you’re successful with the birth,

C: I was successful, no complications. My mother was there she was able to cut the cord. And she did say to me later, I didn’t go through anything like you went through. So I’m thinking she definitely just was given a ton more drugs and that was also back when they kept mom’s in the hospital for like a week.

P: Yes, yeah, I definitely remember reading about moms who considered the hospital vacation from their kids at home because it’s not taking care of you so I can see why there’s like a rosy glow around that experience.

C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

P: So what’s the fourth trimester like when you get home? Is that smoother?

C: Um, like the recovery? Yeah. The that was interesting. The hormone part. I’m not a crier in general. But I was just I would sob. like I’d get exhausted. And my husband would say, well give me the baby, go lie down. And I’d be like, I can’t, I can’t have you know, you’ll be so far away. And I would just love her and it was just kind of like looking at myself like what is wrong with you? So I do remember the hormones and crying a ton and also how your whole world changes because now it’s all about protecting this tiny little incredibly vulnerable thing that you love more than you knew love existed. And how are you going to do that? You know, how are you going to protect them from cars that jumped the sidewalk or a bomb left in the mailbox or I remember feeling like physically I was gonna have to do that. And it would figure it out. You know?

P: It does feel like a changed perspective on the world around you. I remember crying when my newborn got wet in the rain. You know, I was with my mom and I was like it’s raining on her and she’s like she couldn’t get wet. That’s like one of her tricks. We’re not so I totally get that feeling. So then how do we get into another one? If the feeling is I’m not doing this again.

C: Because you love that baby so much. You know, and honestly I would have liked to have three or four. So after a while, yes, the pain the thoughts of that pain and the remember you said that pain never ever went away. And I think about it every time literally every time I see a drug addict. I do go okay, I get it. I totally get it. You just need to get out of your body, whatever is causing that pain. You didn’t find a different way, whatever. And then I just adore children and endured being a mom. So eventually, you know, they’re four years apart. So it took a little while not to get pregnant again but to be say okay, let’s do it again. When we got pregnant in it, we didn’t have any problems with that. And then the second pregnancy was pretty much like the first although not quite as bad in terms of exhaustion. I don’t know if that’s nature saying oh, this poor woman’s already got a kid we can’t let her get a as exhausted STI. But yeah, so I made it through without too much trouble with that.

P: And was the second pregnancy and delivery easier than the first because you kind of knew what to expect better.

C: It was and I think my body you know, it’s I feel like it’s kind of like the first time you blow up a balloon. It’s really hard. And the second time it just kind of, you know, does its thing a lot easier. Because I didn’t have any drugs the second time I still you know begged them to kill me and wanted it to be saved the baby just killed me. But this Yeah, so he was he was an easier birth and that although he was the cord was around his neck. So that caused tension and scariness at the very end and they whisked him away the second he was born was first child, I could just just slap them on my belly and I was able to hold them and try and nurse him right away. So

P: were you able to watch the experiences of your sisters does anyone Did anyone else have kids before? You

C: No I wasn’t I was able to get to the hospital after my one of my sisters gave birth but I was not there participating because they were giving birth early 70s when that kind of thing like people weren’t or you know, even husbands, I don’t think yeah, like in the room and stuff. And then my second sister lived in Los Angeles. And I was in on the East Coast. And then she ended up having a terrible like two day laborer. And then eventually they did a C section. So I wouldn’t have been around there for that either. That

P: so it sounds like it sounds like no magazines in the second generation.

C: No, Exactly, exactly. No magazines and no prepared speeches that were like grounding in reality either.

P: Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. Right? So you went in a little bit blind with what was on TV and what your mother said, which are two very contradictory stories.

C: Exactly. And my Bible What to Expect When You’re Expecting, which was helpful, but you can’t really describe that kind of pain. I don’t think I think it’s very hard for women to understand, at least for me, I I’ve been lucky with good health and whatnot. So this whole idea of thinking I have to get out of my body. Now. That took me by surprise. I really had never experienced anything like that.

P: Yeah, I think I think usually for pain and other difficult experiences, we analogize but I’m not sure there’s any appropriate analogy for childbirth, right. So

C: Right. Right. I agree. I agree. I just can’t describe it. All I could say to men in my life was think about a muscle cramp. And like multiply it by a million. And that’s kind of what a labor pain feels like. Because it is it’s just really hard to explain what happens.

P: Yeah, it is. It is a hard thing to put into words. I totally agree. Yeah. So having had these two experiences, looking back, would you have advice for younger you about maybe how to manage things differently? Or?

C: Yeah, I think I would just, I think I would not have been so much I’m not going to do drugs. I would say if you you know don’t do the whole like, Oh, I’m I’m really strong and I don’t need to, you know, just don’t blame and say yeah, I can use that. And then my midwives had told me if you can stay on your feet, stay on your feet. And I just, I wish I was able to do with my second son and that helped a lot because I went into labor towards the morning with my first son. I was just ready to go to sleep. I was exhausted before I even started labor. 

P: Yeah, 

C: I would. I would say those things. Don’t be afraid to ask for drugs. And if you can stay on your feet helps a lot.

P: So the sounds like the first one. I guess what’s confusing me is they didn’t give you drugs either time, even though it sounds like at some point you asked for them.

C: The first time I got one shot of Demerol, that was it? Yeah. Yeah. And I actually I understood their reasoning. They’re like the more drugs we give you, the longer it’s going to take you to recover and I get that. But with my first son, I felt great right away. And with my second son as well, I mean, I would forego that I would I would take time to recover to not experience quite the extreme. of pain. Yeah.

P: So what you’re saving is the recovery right after birth. Is that what you’re saying? Yeah, okay.

C: For me. I did. I was so elated. I had like a rush of hormones, I guess of like, you know, it was just this incredible miracle in your arms. It was very Yeah, I felt like I could jump up and dance a jig right afterwards.

P: Did you do the whole breastfeeding thing or?

C: I did with both boys but not as long as other friends because both my boys got very active around nine months old. So they literally want to nurse for three seconds and then crawl away and then come back and then cretinous like yeah, okay, I’m not the 24 hour Deli. So yeah,

P: well, that’s amazing. 

C: Yeah. 

P: And did you have writing more to share on this topic?

C: Well, the writing is not exactly it’s related. My husband ended up passing away from drug addiction. And I didn’t connect it. He was so supportive. And so there for me when I was in pain, giving birth begging for drugs and I didn’t reverse that when he was going through his travels. So that’s what my story is about. It’s about me giving birth, and then him eventually confessing that he’d been doing drugs all along in secret. And then he you know, he lost his battle, and that I think about giving birth. Now, more than before, because I just remember I would have done anything for drugs at that point, anything, you know. And so that’s the story. that I that I wrote,

P: well, that sounds like a powerful story, and I’m so sorry about your husband. It does seem like there’s something beautiful in your ability to connect to that that feeling of desperation in someone else that I think most people can’t connect or write it off or know why this is my way to make sense of all the anti vaccine and all the all the stuff of the pandemic is that these people have never experienced, you know, a medical situation that’s gone sideways, something right there some so they have no way to connect. To the fear that people have who are staying home and getting vaxed and doing all that stuff. 

C: right Right. 

P: And it is so it is like valuable for you to have this experience to say I understand it and I don’t condemn you unnecessarily. Like I get where you’re coming from.

C: Right exactly. Exactly. It’s all starts out with me giving birth and making fun of myself because I was Miss I’m not gonna do drugs and within minutes, I was like, give me drugs. And then it gets into talking, you know, finally saying, you know, I do drugs all the time, like, hide it. From you. I don’t know why I do it.

P: You know, birth is a transformative experience that leads to many other things it doesn’t have to be about…Thanks for sharing it. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing your story.

C: Thank you so much. Thank you.

P: I’m grateful to talk with Corinne story. There’s so many inputs into our images of pregnancy and birth. And it’s really interesting to hear about the ones that played a role in her life, and how she managed her deliveries when our expectations clashed so immediately in her lived experience. Thanks again to her for sharing your story. Chris has written work all over the place. I’ll put some links to our work in the show notes, which you can find at war stories from a little.com Thanks for listening. We’ll be back next week with another inspiring story.