Episode 49 SN: Choosing the Greatest Vulnerability: Jody’s Story

P: Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?

Jody: My name is Jody Keisner and I’m from Omaha, Nebraska.

P: Nice and Jody did you grow up with any siblings that you grew up with brothers and sisters?

J: I have one sister Debbie. She is she would tell you she is 13 months younger than me that’s important to her.

 P: You guys are close. So did you Did did growing up with a sister make you think oh I definitely want a family or was Did you know you wanted a family?

 

J: That is an interesting question because I had children later in life. I was pregnant with my first when I was 35 and all my friends were having children in their 20s or at least their early 30s. And I did not feel compelled to have children or to become a wife or to get married until I met my husband John. I met him when I was in grad school. And it is as they say it was like a biological clock. And this primal urge inside of me. After we were married. I had to have children. I mean I had to the thought of it started to consume me a little bit.

P: That’s totally interesting. I’m similarly situated in that I thought I wouldn’t get married and have kids and you know, here I am married with two kids. But I also started a little bit later although I feel like I should look it up 35 probably isn’t that old anymore. It may have been in your circle. 

J: Right? 

P: But I think that age at first birth is trending upwards. 

So I did go on look up the numbers. On average in the US the age at which people become mothers for the first time has increased between the year 2000 and 2016 The average across the US at 26. But the average for first time mothers is hirer in big cities and on the coast and it isn’t the interior. And our goal in New York Times cites the statistic that in 2018 in New York and San Francisco, the average age of first time mothers is 31 and 32. While in Todd County, South Dakota and Zapata County, Texas. It all happens a decade. Sooner at 20 and 21. One of the big drivers of this age gap is education. Women with college degrees have a child on average seven years later than those without.

J: Yes, and I read many articles on that when I was trying to get pregnant because my OB GYN said I was advanced maternal age. Yes, yeah. And I kind of took umbrage at that was like well, what does that mean?

 

P: So it is a totally unfortunate term and it is kind of vague, but when OBE is used terms like advanced maternal age, what they’re flagging is that reproductive machinery ages faster than the rest of our body. There are a number of theories that try to explain this process, including how we manage senescence cells are cells that no longer divide in reproductive organs and changes in immune function, because immune cell activity is critical to a healthy pregnancy. A consequence of this faster aging is that women in their 30s and 40s are more likely to experience pregnancy complications like miscarriage, low birth weight, preterm or post term delivery, and cesrean delivery. As we learn more about the aging process in general and what families and genes are intimately involved with aging Some researchers think we can expand the window of fertility. I linked One review article in the show notes. So check that out if you’re interested.

J: then I was looking at the average age of first pregnancy and it does seem like it’s trending upward especially on the coasts. I think here in the Midwest, it might still be 20s and 30s, early 30s But I do find comfort in that. 

P: Yeah, yeah, you are not alone. I know we’re going to talk about your second daughter. But the first one you got pregnant easily. What was that like?

J: We tried us they told us to I want to say it was about six months, and then they prescribed me Clomid. And she thought that perhaps I was ovulating late. And we got pregnant right away. The first Clomid pill and I had an early miscarriage eight weeks and I was devastated. I felt devastated. I had all the concerns. I think, you know, I’ve read that other mothers have which is what if I can’t get pregnant again? What if I can’t carry a pregnancy? We waited the requisite two months took Clomid again. got pregnant. My husband John said this one’s going to stick I just know it and that was Lily. 

P: Oh, lovely, lovely 

J: she’s eleven

P: Oh wow. And that pregnancy was more or less straightforward.

J: It was straightforward. I didn’t I did have a placenta pre varia. That corrected itself.

P: A quick word on placenta previa, our placenta develops inside the eaters with the baby and then placenta previa, the placenta is partially or totally blocking the cervix, which would frustrate a woman’s ability to give birth vaginally is described as quote common and happens in one and 200 pregnancies. For many women. That condition resolves as the uterus grows, and there’s more space between the placenta and the cervix. If it doesn’t resolve the solution is a C section. There are a bunch of risk factors including pregnancy in women who are 35 and older.

J: And I had the book What to Expect When You’re Expecting and of course in the back of that book, it’s like an index of everything that can go wrong. And I had I just couldn’t read that book. Because then I would analyze and diagnose everything that was happening. And really the pregnancy was very smooth. 

P: Good. good

J:  I enjoyed it a lot.

P: And then you Did you deliver the way that you wanted to deliver. Did you walk in with a birth plan or what did that look like?

J: Oh, I chickened out of the natural birth that I had planned with a doula. I was in labor for about two days. And you know, the first time they sent me the hospital sent us home. And then we went back and by the time I had been up for was it about 30 hours straight because I couldn’t sleep through the contractions. And I remember the nurse coming in and saying do you want pain relief? She didn’t say Do you want an epidural? She said do you want pain relief. I mean, I knew what she was asking. But in my birth plan, I was gonna say no to the epidural. But I could say yes to the so I had an epidural. I’m not disappointed. I don’t have regrets. The pregnancy was fine. Lily was whole, you know, she born with a whole head of dark hair and healthy and it just went really well.

P: Good. That’s lovely. I can’t decide how I had two C sections because I had you know, everything that could go wrong did go wrong. I mean, I knew I was having a C section. months before the baby was born because things were so fucked up. So I never had to brook this issue of what I take the epidural wouldn’t I take the epidural, but I’m ambivalent about people describing it as like brave or like you said I chickened out. I’m not I don’t I’m not sure how I feel about that. Because you chickened out because you took a medical a medical approach that’s available to you so you don’t have unbelievable pain like there is this. There is this glory around the suffering, which I can’t figure out what that’s I don’t know where that comes from. Maybe that’s crazy. Maybe it’s just broader culture. I don’t know where it’s from. 

J: no  and there’s so many theories on whether or not is truly empowering for women to give birth without any medical intervention or support, or if that’s all rooted in misogyny that we need to suffer that we need to so I’m glad I’m actually really glad you brought that up. I had so many friends who had experienced natural childbirth, and then had impressed upon me how liberating and empowering of an experience it was. And so I thought, well, this may be the only time in my life. I can experience my body doing this. And I was curious, but once I was in a certain amount of pain, I was no longer curious. And I knew I wanted to be more comfortable. And I had you know, I have no regrets about that. 

P: Yeah. 

J: And my Doula was wonderful. She wasn’t a hard ass. Like some of the doulas I had interviewed. They were really tough. And I knew Nope, I don’t I don’t want someone that’s not going to support me if I change my mind. It’s my body. I’m going to do what I want to do. But I’m glad you brought that up.

P: Also. I mean, maybe you would have done it if you hadn’t been awake for 30 hours before that, right? There’s so many so many factors that you can’t anticipate when you’re making that decision beforehand that when you’re in it, you’re like, This is nuts. Right?

I’ve interviewed midwives on the show before and one of them said, she’s seen obviously all kinds of births and that many of the women who don’t get drugs are so out of it when the baby is born, because they’re so just completely spent that they don’t actually get the moment everyone relishes about having the baby put on your chest right after the baby’s born and having that bonding moment because they’re just 

J: oh sure 

P: they’re just completely out of it. And so when it came to her own birth midwife said that she asked for an epidural, because I want to focus on and so it may be for these other woman they want to focus on the physical prowess of doing this really hard thing. Right. You know, everything is a trade off.

J: Oh, I think that’s fascinating that the midwife

P: totally This is so I mean, I hope you’re telling people this because,

J: right because there are pros and cons. It isn’t it isn’t one is better than the other necessarily depends on what you want from your experience. And when Lily was born, it was beautiful. John, my husband was crying and put Lily on my chest when she started. This is a little graphic but when she started crying, milk just started running down my front.

P: That’s kind of awesome. 

J: And it was awesome. It was all just awesome. Yeah, very cool. Well, good.

P: So I’m glad that all worked out. And then you have Lily and then How old is she before you decide we want another one?

J: Lily was three so she was just too old enough that I started to forget how brutal it is when they’re newborns because my friends had warned me about a lot of things with the labor itself. People use words like Oh, you’ll be exhausted. You’ll be tired. None of those words encapsulate how brutal it is in the beginning, when you’re up every hour with a newborn who either is or is not latching correctly, and your body is trying to heal from the labor and everything is new and you can’t just run to Walgreens when you want to because you have a newborn and so it took three years for me to forget that I had said no more children and when she was three, so I would have been 39 when we tried again and did have to see a specialist, a fertilization specialist. And I was told after we had tried, you don’t have enough eggs. This isn’t going to happen for you. We would have to use a donor egg and We didn’t want to throw more money at it at that point. 

And I’m adopted. My younger sisters, my parents biological child, but I was adopted. I was always interested in adopting a child John and I had spoken about it before we had gotten pregnant with Lily. And so we started talking about it again. And the process from when we started learning about adoption to when we had an adoption profile letter that a prospective birth mother could view was a year. It took a year because we went through the process of open adoption I was adopted in a closed adoption when records are sealed and the birth mother doesn’t know who has adopted her child. And the adoptive parents don’t know the birth mother’s identity. And the adoptee grows up without having any of that information.

P: Wow. So let me stop you here for a second and say that I don’t know anything about adoption. I’m going to ask questions because I don’t know anything. So do they still do closed adoptions now and how do you feel about the closed adoption?

J: Closed adoptions really used to only benefit adoption agencies because the school of thought at the time was the privacy is good for everyone. We’re protected. I was adopted in 1974, which was during the baby scoop era. 4 million babies were adopted domestically. 

P: Okay so to give you a little context here, the baby’s poop error that Jodie is talking about is a period that runs from the end of World War Two to the early 1970s. And as God suggests, a large number of children were adopted. This reflects a bunch of things limited access to birth control, higher birth rates, social pressure against being a single mother. According to the adoption History Project, roughly 50,000 children were adopted in 1944, rising to 175,000 in 1970. In 1974, there’s an estimated 138,000 adoptions, and for relative comparison, just over 3 million live births. So that’s something like 4%. These are rough estimates because the data is messy. Currently, one out of every 25 US families with children have an adopted child. According to the US Census, about half of these families have both biological and adoptive children. Today, almost 60 to 70% of domestic adoptions are open adoptions, which as you’ll hear more about from Jody means there’s a degree of openness and disclosure of information between the adoptive and birth parents regarding the adopted child.

J: This school of thought you know, culturally at the time was that being a single unwed mother was shameful. And so let’s let’s hide the shame away. Send the birth mother to a maternity home and then practice a closed adoption where we can pretend like it never happened. And I’m not going to say too much about my birth mother’s experience because that’s her her story but she was Catholic and her parents thought it was shameful. And she was told to never speak of me again. Now we know that’s really damaging. We know through research and the research psychologists have done as sociologists and etc, that even separating a baby from their birth mother is a trauma.

P: Again, to give a broader context here Ricky Solinger is a historian who wrote a book about adoption in the post war era which is linked in the show notes and her description of the type of maternity home that girls and women could be sent to gives a sense of that hardship. She writes maternity homes served a further stigmatize pregnant young women by removing them from their families, friends and neighbors. These quote homes could create an austere and frightening atmosphere for the birth mother whose freedom of movement was strictly curtailed. And then looking at the psychological costs of birth much more specifically, the adoption network Law Center in California notes that there’s rarely a public acknowledgement and friends and family of the birth parents may attempt to ignore the loss by pretending that nothing has happened. In some cases, the secrecy surrounding the pregnancy and adoption may make it difficult for birth parents to seek out and find support to grieve their loss. Also, the lack of formal rituals or ceremonies to mark this type of loss makes it more difficult to acknowledge the loss and acknowledge the grief as a normal process 

J: And so agencies started moving towards open adoption, where the birth mother and sometimes the birth father are involved in selecting the adoptive parents, and they agree on some manner of openness. Maybe that’s just letters, you just exchange letters, but maybe that’s visits, maybe that’s birthday parties, maybe that’s shared family holidays and something you negotiate throughout the child’s life. Because we know that’s better for the adoptee.

P: So it must be really interesting and informative. Having had the experience you had to then adopt the child because you have a sense of what it’s like for them.

J: I hope so I really hope I can guide Amelia. We adopted Amelia when she was three days old. She’s now almost five, her birthday is in March. I really hope that I can help her with some of those identity issues and some of that loss and grief that I grew up with. And she’s so young but she already has questions. She knows she’s adopted. We talked to her about it before she could even understand just so we would be comfortable talking about it and it would never be some she would never have a memory of this is when my parents sat me down and told me I was adopted. She would just grow up knowing

P: that already seems like a great strategy. And it’s good for you guys to practice before she’s aware. That’s super smart. talk for a minute about the letter. What’s the you said it took a year to put together your profile? What’s that process and what does that mean and how does that work?

J: So the adoption process it for us? We researched open agencies that practice open adoption. We liked the Nebraska children’s home their nonprofit. And we went to something called like an information meeting or probably there were 30 other couples and it’s a two hour meeting where they tell you this is what an open adoption looks like. And if you like what you hear you schedule an intake interview. This was another I think two hour meeting and we were asked all kinds of questions and some of those questions are poking and looking for a unresolved issues you might have that you need to address before you can adopt. So we were asked if we grieved our infertility. We were asked how we solved conflict. We were asked about relationships with extended family members all kinds of questions. Have we ever been to couples counseling? Had we ever contemplated divorce? And I don’t think they’re looking for reasons to say no, we’re not going to help you adopt a child. I think they’re, they’re making sure you have a strong foundation before you begin the process. And you know, maybe they would have had advice for us to seek out counseling or something if the intake interview had uncovered something. But after that step,

P: wait can ask the question about that. Sure. Since you have had your own biological child and now you’re in this world and how do we feel about the different burden placed on adoptive parents to have a child right no one’s asking you those questions when you’re when you make your own child in your bedroom. Or even if you go to IVF no one’s asking you those questions right that never comes up. But somehow when you land in this spot, it’s it’s a different thing. How do you feel about that?

J: Well, I think maybe it would be beneficial to children if all parents had to answer some of those questions before bringing a child into their home. I understand why it’s necessary because adoption is a process that is legally facilitated. You know, there are lawyers involved. There’s a caseworker involved. So it makes sense to me. It would come with all of this other’s stuff that you have to do. Because many people are responsible for this family that they’re put, you know, it’s not just John and I are responsible. We have a caseworker and agency and a lawyer and, and and the birth family and so that’s why all these other steps come in. We questioned it at times. You know, we talked about that. John and I did talk about that. That because you do have a caseworker that visits your home and that talked to our youngest child and we had to have letters of references from friends. And one of the questions asked them if they had ever observed John and I fight and how we handled it. Just a lot of investigating into your marriage.

P: it’s interesting because you also went the IVF route, and I needed help getting pregnant. And in that genre, right, you are inviting all these other people into the process, but because it’s at a different point in the process. The things that are being investigated are totally different. you’re creating this kind of bigger circle of people who are involved in the birth and life your child and I send pictures of my child to the cardiologist and the surgeon who helped her every year so like that feels like a bigger window but it just doesn’t include anything personal really. I mean, it’s like they’re looking for physical things, but there’s no you know, how do you manage conflict does not come up right? There’s no

J: but it’s so interesting that you brought that up because I hadn’t thought of that that with Lily. The help we needed was all related to my body and the physicality of baby making. And with Amelia it was all the emotional and mental. Yeah, components that go into parenthood. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s really fascinating. It is not a very private process. However, when we were undergoing it, and we, you know, met with the caseworker, we had to do background checks. We read books, we took adoption education classes, was really involved process. We didn’t tell anybody. My friends who served as my references knew, and the people in the organization knew and my mother knew, but we didn’t tell anyone else kind of like when you’re trying to get pregnant if you don’t want everyone to know, because then they ask how’s it going? And we still tried to keep it private, even though in some ways it’s it’s impossible to keep it private because you’re working with all these people.

P: can totally see that. Yeah, but it’s a different circle, right. It’s not like your internet’s right your your this is like professional people. But once you get that letter together, what happens then and or do you do any searching or that’s all you do? You put it out there and then someone finds you.

J: Before you get to the letter, you fill out a questionnaire that requires a lot of soul searching that’s asking you questions about are you prepared to adopt a child who has, for instance, disability, and then it’s going to list the different kinds of disability? Are you prepared to adopt a child who is not the same race as you? And Nebraska Children’s Home took that really seriously? Because if you said yes, you had to talk about how are you going to make sure that this child’s cultural background and racial background is represented in your home and in their school and in your upbringing? 

And so after you fill out this really intense questionnaire, they have that information, and they take your adoption profile letter, and they’re only going to show it to birth mothers who match you. And you wait, and while you’re waiting, I think we were told 30% of us would be chosen in a given year and the 70% of us would not and while you’re waiting you attend these adoption education meetings that kind of feel like support groups for waiting couples to keep learning and talking about open adoption and what it looks like and and then you meet other couples who are also waiting for us. That was an additional six month wait. 

And then I was at work. I am a professor at a university. I teach creative writing and I was in my office getting ready to go to a class. Like it was literally 10 minutes before the class and I get a phone call. And I see that it’s Nebraska children’s home and I think Oh, our background checks are about to expire. And I’m nervous because John at this point is worried he’s aging out of new parenthood. He’s 45 I’m 42 And we’re like, How much longer are we going to wait before we decide This is our family of three. 

But that’s not what the woman on the phone asked. She starts telling me that baby has been born. And I stand up from my desk, you know, I was sitting down and I stood up and I was like, Is this happening? What’s happening? We had been told that a birth mother would pick us while she was pregnant and then we’d all meet and get to know start getting to know each other and talking about what that open adoption would look like. But the woman on the phone is telling me this baby is three days old. And the parents have chosen us and they want to close adoption. And can we come and get her right now?

P: Oh, my God, I have to tell you that all the hair on the back of my neck is standing up like I can’t. I can’t I mean it feels a lot like the call from the nurse from the infertility clinic about whether you’re pregnant or not. Right like just a but hugely accelerated because you’re pregnant. The baby’s born she’s here come get her

J; Exactly. We had three hours and come and get her because she was being released from the hospital and they were going to meet us at The Nebraska children’s home office and she was telling me some facts and things about the birth parents but honestly, I wasn’t hearing any of it. I saw later I’d written some of it down, but I didn’t even remember writing it down. As soon as she said we have this baby girl. She’s three days old. You know, I just started crying. And my body flooded with adrenaline. And I was thinking I don’t have diapers. I don’t have a crib. We don’t have food. We don’t you know, John’s parents don’t know. We we haven’t told anyone. And then she said you know call your husband because I was like yes, yes. Yes. You have to call your husband and then call me back at this number. 

P: that’s so funny You’re like What husband? 

J: Yes, it does. Yeah, I don’t care what he thinks. I’m coming to get our daughter. And I called John and he works construction and he was driving around in his white construction van. And he said, Is this happening? Is this really happening? I can’t believe this is happening. I have to pull over the side of the road 

And we both met at home and, and Well, first I had to find someone to teach my class. You know, it was a very bizarre conversation the next day with the chair of my department when I had to tell her that I had to take maternity leave immediately. But John and I met at home and, you know, kind of got ourselves together. We didn’t have a name. We had talked about boy names. We hadn’t decided on a girl name because we thought we might even do that with the birth parents. And he had told me that the birth mother loved Harry Potter.

So I did not want to name my daughter, Hermione 

P: Fair totally fair.

J: I googled on my phone, female characters and Harry Potter and we saw Amelia. She was a good witch. And I love the sound of that.

And that was Amelia and we went to the adoption agency and we met her daughter. 

P: That’s amazing and and the other twist here is that they want to close adoption after all these classes you’ve been to for an open adoption. 

J: Yes. 

P: So how did all that go? What do you have any say in that or? 

J: No, we don’t. They know who we are. You don’t hide any of that when you’re going through? This process. And so they know our full names. They probably know where we live. They’ve seen pictures of us. And for reasons that were undisclosed to us, they chose a closed adoption. I have written letters to them, that I send to the caseworker.

And she let them know that I had written these letters so far they have not asked for those letters. And I know Amelia at some point is going to want to know Yeah, you know that that consumed me during my teenage years. You know who I was really curious about my birth mother. And I know she’s gonna want to know and I’ve talked to our caseworker about this who’s a lovely woman. She said when when she’s older and she starts asking those questions. Why don’t you come and see me?

And obviously with DNA services being what they are. She can find them? 

P: Yeah, 

J: when she’s 18.

 

It will be easy for her.

But I would prefer that. Maybe before then we’re able to reach out. I know I’ve read a lot about adoption reunion stories and they don’t go they don’t always go the way they went on to Oprah or people magazines. 

P: I can imagine that it’s impossible. If you are looking for your birth mother, not to have some kind of fantasy

J: I did

P:  idea about what that’s like, right. It’s just that just is like a natural story you would tell yourself so that set such a high bar for the meeting. 

J: Yes. And especially they don’t want to be found.  So I’d much prefer we work with our caseworker and she contacts them and says, you know, look, she’s going to look for you. Eventually. Anyway. 

P: Yeah. 

J: Some some birth mothers do not want to be followed. So birth parents don’t want to be found. 

P: Yeah. So Emily is five right?didn’t you say she was five? 

J: Five at the end of March. 

P: Okay. So so we’re not in any, any. There’s no immediate risk that she’s going to run out to 23 and me and make it happen. 

J: Exactly. No. So that’s a long way off. She does. So children are so smart. And we have some books on adoption that we read when she wants to read them. But she has asked me questions sometimes. She establishes in our family she’ll say mommy is adopted.I’m adopted.

Daddy’s not adopted, Lily’s not adopted.

And she’s repeated that a few times. She has asked me where her birth mother is where her birth father is. Gosh, she was three I think when I was trying to show it to her explain it to her with her stuffed animals. This is your birth mother. This is me. This is you. You were in your birth mother’s tummy because she has asked was I in mommy’s tummy? 

P: Yeah.

J: And now I’m your forever mom. Or your heart mom?I’ve read in books, these phrases in books. So I’ve used them.

And there was a timer sitting in a room and I was explaining this to her and she looks so sad and I said it’s okay to be sad. And she got into my lap and she cried a little bit.

I believe babies feel this. I believe they feel this when they’re separated from their birth mom, how could they not?

P: A little more on this So in 2003, a book was published by Nancy Verrier, a therapist, adoption advocate and author and many people thought this book had the power to revolutionize the way we talk about adoption…she refers to adoption using the term relinquishment and she coined the phrase the primal wound, which she defines as, quote, physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual wound. Her argument is that the act of separating an infant from its birth mother creates trauma. The infant of the birth mother had been growing a bond over their 40 weeks together. The infant knows its mother through all the sensory relationships that exist between a mother and a fetus in utero, a sense of a heartbeat, voice and smell and to be removed from that even at a very early age creates trauma. This is not to say that kids who are adopted are victims. It’s just to recognize that something significant has been lost in this process. adoptees can love their adoptive parents and feel traumatized by their relinquishment and adoption. So the primary goal here is to acknowledge this fact. Marcy Axness, also therapist and author on the subject notes that abandonment and loss is imprinted on the unconscious mind and the biochemistry of those who have been separated from their biological mothers at birth. Part of why this is important is because culturally we tend to bury this truth. You focus on the adoption part of the transaction, but not the relinquishment part. And denying trauma exists doesn’t resolve it, especially given that trauma can have all kinds of downstream effects on development. There’s a link to a relatively recent article in The Atlantic on this topic in the shownotes.

J: We know from research they recognize their voice and recognize the heartbeat maybe the smell, how could they not feel that? So I do think Amelia feels that loss not every day. But I do think in that moment when we were in her room and she was asking me questions. She was sad about it. 

P: Yeah, I agree with you. It’s hard to imagine she doesn’t understand on some levels somewhere in her body about that. That connection, but I’m you know, I guess for her sake, I’m I’m very hopeful because at least you’re acknowledging it and you’re talking about it, which I can imagine was not a thing when you were three.

J: No, and when I would ask my mom about the other lady, as my mom said I would call her she would she would get upset. And she has said to me over the years I never thought of you as adopted. I’ve always thought of you as my own.

But I was adopted. I was hers but I also had a birth mother. And I didn’t want to make my mother cry. And if she would cry, she would be upset. And for a while, I felt like I can’t ask about it. I can’t I can’t talk about it. But my mother did help me when I was in high school and then later in college when I said Mom, I have to meet my birth mother. I have to at least try I need to know this piece of my identity. And where I come from. I have so many questions. And it was my mom who helped me 

P: that’s awesome. and I can imagine it makes a difference. 

J: it Makes makes a huge difference to have that support. And I think it’s definitely complicated for adoptive children and for adoptive parents and I thought because I was adopted I would slide so gracefully into this role of being an adoptive mom, that I wouldn’t feel jealous or threatened or confused or these things I had read about in these adoption narratives that adopted adoptive parents can feel but I didn’t feel all those fakes.

When we brought Amelia home, I did have some insecurities. I did wonder, who do you look like? Where did you come from? Who do you think I am? Do you know? I’m your mom? Do you feel like my daughter you know I had I went through all that which helped my mom and I you know grow closer because I talked to her about it.

So I did feel all those complications.

The kind of complicated love that accompanies of that kind of family making 

P: Yeah, I mean, none of it’s for free, right. There’s no There’s no easy path. I think to having children 

J: exactly 

P: anyway you can and so two things to say one is the do they look like you is such a powerful presence. So my two kids don’t look anything alike. i One on One looks like mini me. And when they were little and I would have them in the stroller, people will ask Are they both yours? 

Oh, that’s always fun all the time. You know, which I was like, this is such a weird why are you asking me this? You know? It’s a weird thing to say.

J: Amelia is whatever she feels her feelings toward her birth family and where she’s come from, and that journey for her is not mine. 

P: Yeah, 

J: you know, it’s hers. It’s going to be hers. And yeah, I know my mom had her own feelings about that. And and it at times was painful for her that I have and I’ve met my parents so I have this whole other world that she’s not a part of. 

I want to say something to the comment you made about people asking you if both your children were yours. Yeah. I can tell you adopted people hate those that the question and you know, it’s it’s probably a thing in every culture that people will comment on newborns. Oh, he looks so much like you. Oh, she’s got your nose. Oh, you know people used to tell my sister and I because we’re so close in age that we are we twins we looked so much like this commenting on resemblance is so common in our culture, and it does out you know, non traditional families that question like outcome, in some ways. I mean, you can lie when people say people will comment that don’t know on how much Amelia looks like John. They both have brown eyes and brown hair. But people that do know will also comment like almost as a way to assure reassure me they’ll say oh, she touched you looks so much like John she looks so much like your family you would never know. And, and that begs the question, Well, why would I never want people to know.

P: Agreed. What are you hiding? Thats wacky 

J:  Why can’t people know but then on the other hand, I find that question so invasive like someone asking you are they both yours? Why do they need to know that if they’re not in your inner circle that is so not any of their business? And what is it that they’re trying to get at? I just it’s such an interesting interesting phenomena. 

P: It totally is. And I agree, I don’t I don’t I don’t know what the source of that what the source of that curiosity is.

J: I’ve read a couple of theories about it. And I don’t go on too long, but I read something about it’s sort of rooted in our ancestors in the male need to affirm kinship and make sure the child was theirs. 

P:Yeah.

J: So that is rooted in that like it’s not the male man’s baby right? The baby looks like me.

 

P: Yes, it does seem primal to some degree or 

J: it’s outdated to now… families are made in so many different ways. 

P: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. So that’s amazing. So 11 And five, so you’re pretty busy. 

J: Yes, very busy. I have a great relationship though.

They really enjoy that. Well. The young one adores the older one, of course and follows her around everywhere. 

P: Interestingly, also, maybe you would agree with this, that age gap is is kind of nice. And actually, you didn’t have a big age gap. So you had a totally different experience, but my I have a younger sister who’s eight years younger than me and when we were kids, we didn’t have that much in common, but she’s absolutely one of my best friends in adulthood. And I talked to her every day. You know, there’s no competition between 11 and five.

J: Right. Right, and they can have their own extracurriculars and their own friends and it doesn’t overlap in school the way it did for my sister. 

P: Yeah, 

J: and me. Yeah, that’s absolutely right. The competitiveness is not there. In the same way. 

P: Yeah, I’m assuming your sisters need to point out that she’s 13 months younger is some need to distinguish herself from you or differentiate or, you know, we’re not twins. 

J: Yeah. And when I would say, Well, this is my little sister, she would go not that little 13 months difference, kind of thing. So it absolutely was a way to like distinguish herself from me.

Yeah. Yeah. 

P: So that sounds lovely. I know you’ve written about this, but you’re I think we were talking earlier about. You’ve written a book and it somehow touches on this week. Tell us about the book. 

J: Yeah. So my book under my bed and other essays. It’s coming out September. First. 2022. And Amelia story is in the book. The origin story of the book is that when I was in my 20s, living alone for the first time, I had this nighttime ritual. I get home at night, and I raced around my apartment and check behind furniture, yank back the shower curtain and look under my bed. Because I felt like if I didn’t, there would be an intruder, serial killer or rapist waiting for me.

And I knew it was irrational and childlike.

But maybe not that irrational. So I started seeking out these origin, stories of my fear and other women’s fears and where they come from, and in the process of writing the book started writing about Mother fears, and even Body Body fears. But the book is ultimately about how we choose the greatest vulnerability of all which is to love and care for others. So Amelia story is in the book.

P: That’s very cool. What’s the name again? 

J: it’s under my bed and other essays, okay. And you have a website or what I do, okay? Should I say it? Sure. It’s www. Jodi. keener JODYKEI S N E R.com. 

P: Cool. And I assume you have more writing there? 

K: I do. Yeah, there’s some links to other essays. 

P: That is very cool. Thanks so much for coming and sharing your story and telling us all about this interesting and difficult process. 

J: Yeah, thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun.

P: Thanks so much to Jody for sharing her story. When I was looking into all the topics she introduced me to there was a lot of discussion of adoption being quote, the last taboo, because the profound disconnect between the public perception of adoption, which can only be discussed in terms of incredible luck for the child and generosity for the adults involved. And the way it’s experienced by adoptees, which seems more nuanced includes both trauma for the initial loss, and the glory we all hear about. So I sincerely appreciate that this story is being shared so we get more information about all this.

You can find links to the things that Jody and I discussed, including a link to her website, and Her most recent book, on the war stories from the womb. website at war stories from the room.com Thank you for listening. If you liked the show, feel free to share it with friends. We’ll be back soon. With another inspiring story.