Episode 23 SN: One Woman’s Story of Surrogacy: Cheney

Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show, can you tell us your name and where you’re from. 

Cheney: Hi, yes. My name is Cheney and I’m originally from San Diego, California. I’m currently in Louisiana, however,

P: wow, that’s a big shift. 

C: It’s a huge shift.

P:  So let’s talk about pregnancy you have a really interesting story in part because you have the experience of a surrogate and the experience of having your own child, which I’m totally interested in.  My husband and I, at some point, were thinking about using a surrogate, because I have all kinds of medical problems, so I’m interested to learn from you. Why did you get into surrogacy. What did you imagine pregnancy would be like and, and we’ll get into like how it was different as a surrogate and bearing your child for yourself. So why don’t you tell me first. How did you get into surrogacy?

C: My now ex husband and I, we, he was in the military. So, you know, we moved around, and I was a stay at home mom with my one child, and we had friends of ours that she had done a few surrogacies And she was like, you know, it’s such a great way for you to still be able to stay home and make money. 

P: Yeah, 

C: right? and she’s like if you had an okay pregnancy. If you know, because she knew like I didn’t want another one I was kind of a one and done. So she knew I didn’t want to have another one so they like need for another baby wasn’t really there, so she’s like I think that you would be a perfect candidate because you know it is a great way to make a little extra income, I mean yes you are having a baby, but you know it’s just a good way to get a good chunk of money to pay off some bills and things like that so that’s kind of how it got started was just like a friend of ours was like, I’ve done it, she’s like on her third baby now and like, she’s like, it’s so great and fulfilling and you know all the stuff and I was like sure, like, let’s do it.

P: So that’s super cool and I could see, I mean it’s an amazing thing to give to someone else so I could see like why you might be attracted to it, but, but then let’s hear about your pregnancy first because this must be what, in some ways convinced you that this would be a thing to do. So before you got pregnant the first time, what did you think pregnancy was going to be like?

C: I didn’t really know. I didn’t really hot like my sister was pregnant, she had twins, the first go round. So I was like oh man if I get twins, that’s gonna be hard, but, um, but yeah I didn’t really like have any expectations I didn’t really know what to expect, what not to expect just like things that my sister had been telling me, you know, I asked my mom how her pregnancy was, you know, a few friends of mine, and they all were like it was fine. I didn’t have any issues you know yeah morning sickness sucks but then it goes and it’s just like it’s fine, you know like they went about their merry way and it wasn’t like a big deal. So, I was just like okay cool, it seemed really easy, I guess, to get pregnant, nobody in my immediate group had trouble getting pregnant, so the IVF and all that stuff I didn’t know about any of that because I hadn’t experienced it, so 

P: that’s a good entrance right like yeah, you know, it’s good,

C:  it’s easy. Yeah, my sister had to write that in there first time and I’m like okay, we’re fertile, you know, 

P: yeah, exactly.

C: So did you get pregnant easily.

C:  The first time I did, yes. Yeah,

I stopped taking, I was on birth control. I stopped taking it. I get I did all the, you know, proper protocols when the doctor said, Okay, we’re going to try, you know, made sure everything was good to go. And then I stopped taking the birth control. And then after three months I was pregnant.

P: Good that is pretty good. 

C: Yep. 

P: And then, what was the way you want to walk us through pregnancy is there anything that kind of stands out as, oh, I wasn’t didn’t expect this, or this is not what I would be. 

C: I didn’t expect to get pregnant so quickly. Yeah, so that was kind of a shock when I I just on a whim took the pregnancy test I wasn’t like oh my god I’m a weak lead and you know like I wasn’t kind of that. I’m not an overly excited person just naturally. 

P: Yeah, 

C: so I just took it on a whim and I was like well I think I’m supposed to start today I’ll just take it right, and then then the pregnant and I was on my way to the gym. And I was like, Oh, I just left it. My husband was still sleeping. It was early, and I just left it in the bathroom. And he was still sleeping and I was like let’s just see like if I get a call right so I went to the gym I was being a friend you know I still went to the gym and did my thing, and never got a call never nothing I called him and I was like, Hey, did you notice something in the bathroom and he was like, What, no, and I was like, Oh my gosh. Can you go look in the bathroom and he was like, Oh my God, he’s like, go buy another one make sure this is right. Okay, so I went and bought another test and I was pregnant.

P: that is sort of that, that is the tricky thing about getting pregnant quickly is there’s no Runway Right, 

C: yeah, 

P: for people who, it takes a little while he get used to the idea and I mean you have nine months he’s the idea but it is kind of immediate right,

C: yes. Yeah, and you’re just like, wow, my life has now changed. 

P: Yeah, 

C: this is weird, you know, but yeah, and then it was like the anticipation of like, Am I gonna get sick, am I gonna get sick, you know, like I just kept waiting to get sick and I never did.

P: Oh, that’s interesting. 

C: Yeah, 

P: and so was it the second trimester also easy everything’s easy.

C: Yeah, everything was super easy. The only thing I’m about Super stood out was, because I am I was waiting to get sick because my sister had gotten really bad morning sickness. So, I was still working full time, you know I was a manager at a sporting goods store at the time, and I was just working and working you know and I remember this one day I did go out to get lunch and I ordered a iced tea, which I normally do. And it did not sit that I had to immediately go, you know, let it all out. And since that day I have not been able to touch it, 

P: oh, no

C: yeah, so that’s kind of that weird thing of like wow, I totally like him and smell it. Yeah, wow, you know, yeah, it was it’s so that’s like the thing that I didn’t really. The surprising thing that came out of it was Yeah, well I can’t drink iced tea anymore. Cool,

P: yeah that’s that is like a surprising thing after drinking it all the time, right,

C: right, and then just that one time and it was like right at the very tail end of my first trimester, and that was the one time that I ever got sick and it was because of the iced tea, and I was just like that is so bizarre.

P: Yeah, that’s weird. And so, it’s smooth, up until the third trimester and then take us to the day of the birth like how did you know today was the day.

 

C: Yeah, so my water broke at work. 

P: Oh, Wow. 

C: Yeah, yeah. 

P: was it like a Hollywood splash?

C: No

P:  Okay good. 

C: No, thankfully, yeah, thankfully it was not like that, I yeah I had an early shift that day and I was the only manager on the floor. At the time, you know until we opened, there was just like one manager, looking over, like the truck. 

P: Yeah 

C: and so I was there early, and I was just like, kept kind of leaking. And I was like, what is happening you know because it would just like dribble and I’m like pee, like what’s happening so I kept like running back to the bathroom and I’m like, It’s not pee. And then I would stand up and stuff would dribble and I’m like, This just seems really weird. 

P: Yeah, 

C: So, so I went up and I told one of the team leads and I was like, Yeah, can you call like the other manager like I needed to come in early, I think my water broke and everyone of course freaked out. And I was like, No, it’s totally fine. Like, I can wait until she gets here, you know like I was super nonchalant about the whole thing. You know so she got there and then I was able to leave and I drove myself to the hospital, you know, I called 

P: so no contractions at this point, 

C: no nothing. 

P: Okay, yeah, 

C: just some leakage and yeah so I called my husband and he drove like 45 minutes to work was like hey have you left yet and he’s like No, and I was like yeah you might not want to I’m headed to the hospital, you know, Can you meet me there. And so we did and you know they did the test of, I guess there’s like a paper strip that they can stick down there to see if it is actual breaking. Yeah, or nothing.

P: So if your water breaks the way Cheney’s did without much fanfare and there are no contractions, there are a few tests available in the hospital to determine if it’s amniotic fluid. Some use a paper strip to test the pH of the fluid because amniotic fluid is more alkaline than normal vaginal fluid which is more acidic, and there are newer tests to try to measure the presence of certain protein markers that are highly concentrated in amniotic fluid to verify that the liquid leaking down your leg is, in fact, evidence of your water breaking.

C: and it was, my water broke, so but it was just like yeah just a super slow trickle and I was like, I was like okay, no, no contractions, no nothing. This was like it probably eight in the morning I think I got to the eight or nine in the morning I got to the hospital. 

P: And are you like 40 weeks are you close to your due date, 

C: I’m 38 weeks, okay 38 weeks. 

P: Yeah, yeah, 

C: so a little early, I mean, around. It wasn’t until I really started, they did they induce, no I don’t think we did, but it wasn’t until my, you know contractions started getting stronger, that’s when, kind of, I was just like, oh my god what am I getting myself into, you know, that’s kind of when it all hit me was like it’s been so easy. 

P: Yeah, 

C: and no one has really told me about the aftermath, and the actual birth that I was like, wow, like, this hurts. Yeah, yeah.

P: And it is a weird feeling of this is happening to my body and I have no control,

C: Yeah, totally, like zero control. Now I ended up throwing up and I was like why did I just do that, like, what the heck you know and the nurse was like happens a lot, like almost everybody because of the hormones and you know, it’s just like, it’s like came out of nowhere and, you know, I ended up getting the epidural. And it didn’t take all the way. So I felt a lot of everything.

P: So wait did you, you just so you can imagine like I want a natural birth or if you just thought it will

C: I knew going in that I would get the epidural, okay. We didn’t go to Lamaze classes I didn’t, you know, think about doing the, you know, learning how to breathe correctly and all of that in hindsight, I totally wish I would have done all of the breathing techniques and stuff like that, like, you know, because now I’m super into yoga and breathing and it’s like, you know how I feel my body. After some other stuff that happened but, but at the time I wasn’t super into yoga or anything like that. So, so yeah I didn’t, I knew, like I was like yeah I’ll just get an epidural and I’ll be fine. That was kind of my thought going into the birth. 

 

P: good, well good. Like, it’s nice to be on kind of the mainstream path but you won’t be flustered when they offer you an epidural you’ll be like, Sure, I’ll take two, right, like there’s right yeah, yeah. 

C: Can you just make sure it all just works. 

P: So you said it didn’t really work, what was the one side of your body, or

C: basically yeah yeah I felt. I think my left side was actually numb, but my right side I could feel everything. And because it was the first one I guess, everything was obviously still super tight. 

P: Yeah, 

C: down there I hadn’t ever been that large, it doesn’t know what it’s doing. 

P: Yeah, 

C: never need to expand. And it just felt I could feel how tight it was, she was coming through, and that on top of the pressure pain was so unbearable. I just remember like screaming it hurts so bad it hurts so bad you know. 

P: Yeah, 

C: they’re just like push you to make better hurts you know, yeah, yeah, it’s just yeah, it wasn’t good like no one told me oh the epidural might not work all the way. Yeah, yeah, I have another backup plan in case this happens because I can’t redo it, you know like I wish that I would have had that kind of like, make sure that you do understand the breathing that you’re able to calm your body you are able to get through the pit you know like I’ve used other techniques in place. If the epidural doesn’t work

P: well so I’m assuming pretty early on you report to them like I can feel everything and what do they say, so sorry. 

C: Oh yeah, sometimes that happens and I’m like Wow, guys. Thanks. Excellent. 

P: As of 2018, roughly 70% of birthing women get an epidural, according to a study out of Stanford, some fraction of these epidurals don’t work. The most recent article I can find on the subject is from 2004. And those authors report that 12% of the time epidurals fail, they attribute the failure to three things in general. First, labor progresses too quickly, it takes something like 20 minutes for the payments to kick in. Second, the needle is inserted into the wrong space in the back, or third, there are some anatomical issue that compromises the effectiveness of this kind of anesthesia. 

Pain is a really hard experience to describe appropriately.

C: It is because everyone experiences it differently as well. You know some have higher pain tolerance, lower pain tolerance is, you know, I always thought I was on the higher pain tolerance and childbirth is a whole other different ballgame,

P: I was gonna say, maybe you are I’m not sure childbirth yeah but right 

C: yeah exactly. 

P: So did you labor for a long time and was the pushing a long time or how did all that go. 

C: No, I didn’t have to push for a long time, Maybe 30 minute 2030 minutes. 

P: Oh good. 

C: Yeah, so it, it was smooth, though I didn’t have any complications from the time my water broke, and then she was born at 5:50pm. So you know, like, eight, nine hours, like that was it. So no, I can’t say that I had this like long tremendous horrible labor I wasn’t, you know, pushing for five hours or anything like that, you know, you know, it, it was fine. My biggest struggle was the aftermath.

P: So what So tell us about that like so she’s born, and then, yeah, 

C: so she’s born, the umbilical cord is wrapped around her neck twice. 

P: Oh wow. 

C: Yes, so she wasn’t breathing right away. And, you know, they put her in my arms and I like was crying just like, you know, breathe, breathe you know when she finally did and everything was fine, but I ended up tearing, just so painful, which nobody talks about. 

P: Yeah, 

C: or told me about anyway. And so then they had to stitch all that up, the hemorrhoids, the breastfeeding, you know, like, she couldn’t latch on. And it was just it was so frustrating like you have this, now human that you need to keep alive. 

P: Yeah, 

C: and you yourself feel like death, because you’ve been through this like traumatic experience basically. And I was just like my hormones were crazy. It was just it was such like a huge shock that I didn’t expect it to be so hard. You know because I’m, you know see pictures of people with their babies and they’re so happy and I was just like, I was so miserable. 

P: Yeah, yeah it’s babies are really hard right the first month so much work, and you just, I feel like, very few people are prepared for it the first time. Yeah, it is really hard so, but it sounds like you probably did not like imagine I breastfeed for a year and a half or something you just thought you would breastfeed for a while and see how it went.

C: Yeah I mean I wanted to at least breastfeed for a year. That was my plan was to go for the year, and I was determined to breastfeed. So I was like, No, like she’s gonna latch you know she’s been like, maybe I’ll get full 24 hours and she hadn’t eaten because I she wouldn’t latch. And this nurse finally came in and she’s like baby tried this nipple shield, and I was like, what, what is this Why did someone give this to me like the second they saw she wasn’t latching you know, and that was a total game changer. 

P: Oh that’s awesome.

C: Yes. Yeah, so I was able to do the nipple shield and she was able to drink from that and I had to then use that the whole entire time that I was breastfeeding, 

P: wow 

C: I couldn’t get her off of the, the nipple shield. 

P: Well, you know if it works 

C: exactly what they are, don’t fix it, and I had to it took me a while because I was so determined to breastfeed like, you know, do it naturally and to me naturally was beyond breast. Yeah, and having this other foreign object between us, like, to me it was like the but that’s not breastfeeding, you know, so it kind of took me a little bit to let go of that and be like, it’s working and it’s fine you know she’s getting what she needs just leave it alone. But then when I had to go back to work, it actually made the transition from me to bottle so easy because she was basically having the bottle on my boob. 

P: Yeah, yeah, 

C: you know, so then my mother in law was able to feed her when I was at work, and I was able to pump at work and no I mean it all worked out. But yeah, I mean it took like a amount of time for just that one nurse to be like, try this. You know, 

P: yeah, yeah. I mean it’s described as natural which doesn’t mean it’s easy, right, it just means. 

C: Nothing’s easy. 

P: Yeah. It also like every part of this process like even like the birth right to coordinate the cervix opening and the hormones and the, you know everything, occurring at the right time. Doesn’t always work that’s like a tricky thing. So 

C: yeah, 

P: and to have your baby have the right latch to match with you perfectly is awesome. You know there’s no guarantee of that. And so it’s great that you figured out a way to make it work.

C: Yes, yeah, thankful and I’m very thankful for nipple shields and I’m thankful that that nurse introduced me to.

P: So it’s interesting that you, that sounds like a relatively straightforward experience. Although having gone through the birth, you’re willing to say yeah, I’ll do it again. 

C: Yeah, because the pregnancy part of it is so easy that nine, the nine months, you know 38 weeks. So easy, that I was like, Yeah, I can do that again, like the birth is one day. But then I don’t have to care for this thing after I can just heal and be done recover. 

P: Yeah, right. 

C: So for me it was like yeah by, you know, let me heal. Let me recover, let me get back to my life. Let me get back to my daughter, you know, and then it was, it was fine. So in my mind it was, it was kind of an easy yes because the first pregnancy itself was so easy. 

P: That makes sense. Okay so for people who have no experience with surrogacy like, walk us through how it works, how do you find a family or how do they find you and how does that stuff all work out. 

C: Yeah, so there’s a couple of different ways that people can do it.

P: A little background here, so it looks like there are two kinds of surrogacy gestational surrogacy in which the surrogate carries the pregnancy of another woman’s egg, and the father or donor sperm. There’s also traditional surrogacy, which the surrogate egg is used to create the embryo she’s carrying surrogates can be altruistic so they carry the baby for another family, and only their medical bills are paid, or commercial surrogacy, which as the name suggests, involves a fee beyond the medical bills. How common is it. The CDC estimates that between 1999 and 2013 2% of all assisted reproductive technology cycles are for gestational carriers, which amounts to about 13,300 deliveries and 18,000 babies, half of the pregnancies have multiples.

 C: I personally went through a agency where you’re kind of put into this database, like, it’s almost like match, right, so you’re put in this database you like fill out your profile you put pictures of like you and your family what you like what you do you know all these things. And then this other family comes in and views, the profiles, and then they pick what one they think is best. So through this agency we were matched, and then it’s like this whole long process of making sure that I am physically fit and able to go through the IVF treatment. And they also had to test my husband, they had to do some blood tests and things on him, to make sure that he was clean, you know from STDs and things like that, 

P: yeah, 

C: obviously, you know, still gonna be having intercourse with this other person’s day but you know so they had to make sure all that was clear. So it was a lot of blood work, it was a lot of back and forth to the IVF facility that we were using. So, yeah, it was a lot of doctor’s appointments, 

P: and the people who are, who are giving you the embryo, they’re, they’re covering all that, are they going with you to all these things. 

C: No so the couple that we ended up matching with didn’t live in the States. 

P: Oh wow

C: So, I Yeah, we didn’t end up meeting them until I was six months pregnant, I think, wow, that’s when we finally met them like we were emailing, you know, back and forth, we had phone conversations and we would communicate via email, but we didn’t actually meet them until they were able to come to the States. And I was like six months pregnant.

 

P: Wow. So what they just they shipped the sample over to you and then is that is that is that how it worked.

C: So what happened. Well this with my particular instance, the mother, her eggs weren’t viable at all. So they had been trying to do EBF the IVF themselves for a few years 10 years I think. 

P: wow

C: And she just couldn’t get pregnant, and it ended up being her eggs just aren’t viable. So they ended up getting an egg donor and the husband, flew in donated his sperm, and then you know flew home, so the facility was able to do what they needed to do with the egg and the sperm. So all I had to do was just go then to the facility and get implanted

P: and is that painful or it’s easy.

C: No, it’s, it’s not painful at all. It’s a little awkward. So, my couple wanted a girl, they were very like they want, so they did the gender they can figure that out, like, you know what they, what the embryo is. So they ended up having I think three boys and one girl embryo. So they only implanted the one. 

P: Yeah, 

C: with like, you know, oops, that that one would attach because I know they like to do multiple, yeah, yeah, eggs, but we only had one egg that was a girl. So my process into being ready to then be implanted, um, if you’re not familiar with the IVF process is that I’m getting injected with hormones to prepare my body to accept this embryo. So it’s basically tricking myself into thinking that I’m pregnant. 

P: Yeah, 

C: so that my body will accept this embryo, so for the, I think two or three months prior to getting the implantation. I was injecting myself with hormones and taking them orally as well. So then I, you know, so I was ready to go, everything’s good. They measured my cervix. Think beforehand before all this started part of the process was also measuring the cervix so then they knew exactly where to implant the embryo. So they had all this so I’m ready to go, you know, two months later, I’m full of hormones, and I go in and they put you on this table right with your legs up in the air basically like you’re giving birth, and then they tilt you backwards. So my head is at an angle, it’s like a 45 degree angle or my head is down at the bottom and my legs are up. So, I guess gravity helps them 

P: Yeah, 

C: put in this embryo and then I have to lay there in that position for a couple minutes, um, that was, that was the the awkward thing like it didn’t, wasn’t painful or anything at all, it was just super uncomfortable and I was like wow I really don’t want to be hanging upside down. Okay, yeah. But, but yeah other than that it was super easy they implanted real obviously took, and, and then I had to continue doing the hormone replacement for the first trimester. I was doing it before the implantation and then for through the whole first semester was doing.

P: That’s interesting. That’s interesting because your body at this point is pregnant. So why do they need to supplement your hormones, after you’re like I understand the pre pregnancy thing to some degree but once you’re pregnant. Isn’t your body supplying the hormones you need. 

C: Yes, but they wanted to make sure that it was getting the hormones that it needed that the embryo was getting the hormones because there. There was a very high risk of the pregnancy failing within the first trimester, 

P: okay 

C: at the IVF so that’s why they just wanted to make sure that I was getting all the hormones that I needed, so they just kind of upped it.

P: can you feel that made you feel the hormones like Do you feel anything at all.

C: No, I mean I felt, I felt fine before the implant. Yeah, after the implant natural hormones kicked in, plus I was taking the added rounds, and I was sick time. 

P: Oh 

C: nauseous 24 hours, I would get sick, in the evening. Nothing tasted good, like it was bad, I was sick, and I was like I didn’t get sick, the first time but it was because all the added hormones on top of everything. Yeah, so then I ended up getting very sick. The first three months it was great.

P: Yeah, well now you know what your sister was talking about, 

C: I’m sure she’s Yeah no I do it. 

P: And so what’s the rest of the pregnancy like.

C: So after I was able to stop the hormones. Yeah, the added in hormones. It was fine. The pregnancy was great. I didn’t have, you know, after the first trimester, my hormones balanced the baby was doing great. I had a great pregnancy, it was actually during the baby was much better for an easier the second time around. I just remember the first time just being so uncomfortable and I gained a lot of weight. But my daughter didn’t gain a lot of weight she was only five pounds 10 ounces, when my daughter was born, and I have gained like 40 pounds. So, I know I had gained all that weight…where in this instance, I didn’t gain a lot of weight.. I didn’t retain liquids like I did the first time. The baby was getting all of the weight. The second go round so I this I thought that was kind of interesting how my body, almost, I guess it remembers right how what it’s supposed to do so the second time around it was like, Oh, yes, you get all the nutrients you’re good, you know like, We don’t need to hold on to all this extra water in the face and get fat and gross, you know, and it was like just the baby got it and it was fine nice the pregnancy was totally fine, and

P: that’s super interesting and do you feel like, like emotionally it was different for you or you thought it felt the same or

C: emotionally I think I was fine and I knew, you know, we have to obviously sign contracts that I’m not gonna steal the baby and all those Yeah, and that’s funny enough, that’s why a lot of people come to actually California when I was doing the surrogacy I was in California. California surrogacy laws are the strictest laws. So a lot of people come to California, to do the surrogacy because of the laws, which I found kind of interesting. 

P: They’re strict in terms of like their surrogate can’t keep the baby is that the issue. 

C: Yeah, I mean that’s the gist everywhere but I don’t know like the legal obligations, I just remember that each state has specific laws to pregnancy, all of them do state know you can’t keep the baby, but I just knew that California is laws were, there were more laws in place, I guess, to do the surrogacy, 

P: that’s interesting. And yeah, yeah. 

C: And this was like, you know, a few years ago so the laws may changed now, but we’re

not being super that’s why a lot of international couples were coming to California because of the laws that makes sense.

P: It looks like surrogacy laws differ in each state. Many states don’t have any laws at all like Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho and Kansas to name a few. And some states have restrictive laws like Louisiana passed a bill in 2016 that says that gestational surrogacy is restricted to married heterosexual couples using their own egg and sperm, but there are all different kinds of restrictions. For example, Texas says the parents have to be married he’s a surrogate and California as Cheney suggests, is considered a surrogacy friendly state because laws protect both the intended parents and the surrogate, and they’re very good IVF clinics in the state so ostensibly surrogates wouldn’t have to travel far to initiate that part of the process. And if you want to be a surrogate, or use a surrogate, you should look into the laws in your state, as things change frequently. 

And so, when you meet them at six months is that an exciting meeting.

C: Yeah, it was really fun. The mother didn’t speak any English. So, a lot of the communication was through the Father, and there were just the sweetest people, they were so nice so genuine. You know obviously super happy to be becoming parents, and they were just so sweet and yeah it was a really good meeting.

P: That sounds amazing and I could just imagine, you know, from the mother’s perspective how grateful she is to have this, right after like 10 years of not working, this seems amazing.

C: Yeah, she was just she was so, so grateful that you know that it was working and she, she could like see it grow, you know what I mean, like seeing growing we’d send pictures and things like that and I think for her it was just like, this is actually happening, you know, kind of surreal for her and it was just it was such a cool experience to have.

P: So do they get to be at the birth, or how does that work.

C: Yes. So, remember, they were coming to the states around 38 weeks just to make sure that they weren’t close by. Yeah, and yeah so then when I, I ended up having contractions. And, yeah, and then I you know I emailed him and was like hey you know I’m having contractions, you know, I’ll let you know obviously want to head to the hospital. And, you know over I think it’s like two hours or so that contractions started getting closer and closer together. So I was able to get to the hospital and then they met me there. When I got to the hospital was already seven centimeters. 

P: Wow. 

C: Yeah. The second time around I was like, I was prepared, I guess, like it wasn’t super painful like the contractions were intense but I wasn’t in excrutiating pain or an Yeah. So by the time I ended up getting to the hospital I was seven centimeters, and I remember them like checking. And they were like, yeah, like how much longer can you go like pain wise and I was like, Yeah, I’m done, I would like the epidural. Okay yeah, let’s do that right now. Great, so I was able to get the epidural really quickly and my water had never broke, he’s like I can feel the sack it’s like there, it’s protecting the baby’s head right, that’s it. He’s like it hasn’t broke yet. Yeah I was just kind of there, and it’s like weird. Okay, so I was able to

P: did the epidural work this time?

Ca little better than the first. Yeah. Yeah, it took, I could feel the. My body was having a contraction. I a sharp pain running through the back of my right leg. That’s when I knew I was having a contraction. 

P: Wow. 

C: Yeah, but other than that it did. It did work, so I was able to push you know better and more concentrated because I could feel that sharp pain I was like oh I’m having a contraction, and they’re like, how did you know that I was like I have a sharp pain running down my leg. So yeah, the second experience was, was much better, and the parents were in the room with me, so it was just my husband and then the parents and then obviously all the nurses and doctors were in the room, and I pushed her out. And they swept her away in, that was it, and then I got to watch the parents like hovering over her and they cleaned her up and, you know, the dad was holding her and he was crying and I was like that was totally worth it. Like just that, seeing that, you know, 

P: that’s amazing. I want to cry at the thought of that so I just I can’t even believe how generous that is for you to do that. I understand that it’s a job and you’re, you know, there, there are other things that come with it but it just seems like the best thing you can do for another person.

C: It truly is giving life right to someone who tried and yearned for it for so long just giving that to them it was just it made all like the whole process worth it

P: That’s amazing. And so how long ago was that 

C: that was six years ago. 

P: Do we get to hear about their little girl like do you guys keep in touch or 

 

C: they went back to, to where they live in. Yeah, they went back four weeks after the birth, they were able to travel and I pumped for them, for those four weeks. And that is something I will never do again. It was so painful to just strictly pump. Yeah, nipples were raw, and bleeding off the whole four weeks. It was horrible. It was horrible. I was like I’m not getting paid enough, it wasn’t enough extra money to, 

P: yeah, yeah, that sounds hard, 

C: I had agreed to it and then I was like wait, how much is it I was like oh that’s not worth it but I already agreed.

P: Aren’t there milk banks for babies are isn’t, isn’t that a thing.

C: It is a thing, and I realized that after, because I was producing so much milk. I was like well what am I going to do with all this extra so once they leave, you know, I was like do I keep pumping and selling it and or donating it or you know whatever I was like you know what, no, I’m done, like, 

P: yeah, yeah, yeah

C:  I want my boobs back. So, um, so I pumped as much as I possibly could and I would portion it out into bags, the breast milk bags, you know I would portion it out like you know three ounces for ounces however much she was drinking at the time, and you know I told them, you know, because first time parents right I’m like hey just like put it in warm water and let it like slowly warm up and then just add it to the bottle, so I had it all perfectly portioned out for them and then they ended up being able to put, put it in a cooler with dry ice, so they were able to take whatever I had back to their country. 

P: That’s awesome. 

C: Yeah, yeah, they had no I haven’t heard from them or spoken to them since. So, well,

P: I’m sure yeah I’m sure every family has their own way to handle it right.

C: Yeah, and you had the option to either stay in touch or not stay in touch. You know, due to some other circumstances, we, you know, I ended up needing to change my telephone number and email address and all that stuff so the agency doesn’t even have my current, you know, contact information, so even if they were trying to contact me, I wouldn’t even know that, you know Yeah. So, but that was it was a really, really good experience and I have been asked to do it again and I don’t want to.

P: Yeah I mean it’s a lot of strain on your body right it’s like a hard thing, I mean, even though it was relatively easy for you like it is a lot to go through.

 

C: Yeah, physically I was fine. It was the emotional and mental health part of it, so I ended up getting bad postpartum depression with my child. And then, it was never taken care of properly. So when I had the second child, 

P: wait, so let me pause right there, no you’re not taken care of appropriately because you didn’t know what was going on or like what happened there.

C: Yeah, I didn’t know about postpartum depression. I mean I knew that hormones got wacky, and they were fine, but no one in my immediate family or friends group had really bad postpartum depression so I didn’t know what was happening I just chalked it up to, oh it’s hormones because I had a baby, but you know I remember just like hating her so much. No, and I was like why do I feel this way you know I was just like I had so many emotions and I didn’t know what to do with them properly, you know I wasn’t seeing a therapist. You know I think I was ashamed or scared to tell my doctor that I was having these feelings, so they don’t want to do, 

P: they didn’t have you fill out like a little depression form or whatever like a survey,

C:  I’m sure, but I was like yeah normal normal normal. Yeah,

P: so it’s really tricky, you know, I, I’ve talked to a bunch of people who’ve had postpartum depression and it’s the most common side effects of pregnancy.

Which is kind of shocking given that almost everyone says what you have said which is, I had no idea, right i i couldn’t kind of see it in myself and one woman I spoke, it was a therapist, and she was like I you know I still couldn’t see it in myself. So it seems like a really tricky thing to, to fix or address because many people going through it don’t recognize it maybe until the second pregnancy or something changes, or there’s something to compare to 

C: right and I yeah and it was like I just showed me because this was like, you know, a week after I was home with her and I was just like oh my god like trying to figure out, like she wasn’t sleeping and our sleep schedule and, you know, my then husband just sleeps through everything and I was mad at him because you know I’m like I’m the one absolutely you know, feeding her every two hours and you’re just frickin sleeping, you know what I mean so of course there was like anger there and confusion and then the depression on top of that and.

P: Okay, Web MD says, 80% of women experienced baby blues, feeling overwhelmed or exhausted and having mood swings, which makes sense given that introducing a new baby into your lives is a dramatic change in circumstance. It comes with a lack of sleep and hormone swings, but feelings associated with baby blues, usually wane in one to two weeks and peripartum or postpartum depression is a much more intense version of this. According to the Mayo Clinic here are some of the symptoms of this kind of depression. Depressed mood or severe mood swings, excessive crying, difficulty bonding with your baby withdrawing from family and friends, reduced interest and pleasure activities you use to enjoy an intense irritability and anger. I’ll include the full list in the show notes, but it’s important to communicate with your doctor about this to get help. 

C: Yeah, I didn’t really know about postpartum and how bad it could get until after the fact, until after the second pregnancy, and then I got it again. You know, and then I was like, I refuse to get out of bed, you know like with Elise I would get up with her you know like, we would be doing things I would still be doing my normal activities, so maybe that’s why I didn’t think it was so bad because I could still do everything I needed to do. 

P: Yeah, 

C: you know, as a mom as a wife and things like that. But the second time around. I just didn’t want to go to bed. I was just done with life. I just didn’t care, and, and that I think is when it hit me and my husband was like yeah sums up, like, you know, let’s say, going to the doctor. And that’s when we went to the doctor and you know I felt comfortable enough telling him exactly what happened and he’s like yeah, you’ve probably been dealing with depression, and now you’ve had, you know this traumatic experience and your hormones are all out of balance, so that you put me on antidepressants and. 

P: Was that helpful. 

C: No, it made me feel worse. 

P: Oh no, yeah. So, how did you find your way out. 

C: Um, that’s a whole other story. No, I don’t know. Honestly, there. Like I was saying there was a whole lot of other factors to my story than just the pregnancy, my husband, ended up being a drug addict, so I was dealing with that, he told me that he was addicted to pain pills, Three days after I had birthed my birthed our daughter. 

P: Oh wow, 

C: he told me that, so I was dealing with a lot. 

P: Yeah, 

C: and our relationship, and his addiction just kept getting worse and worse and worse and worse as time went on, and I agreed to do the surrogacy I was under the impression that the money was going to be going to pay off our car to pay off credit cards, things like that. Well, he ended up using all the money for his addiction. So there was like a lot going on in my world. 

P: Yeah, 

C: and I ended up because of my depression I think and because of, you know this codependency relationship that I found myself in, you know, I knew I needed help. I knew that he needed help. So I ended up having family take my daughter and I ended up using with him. and the uppers that I was using actually kicked my depression. Not saying that that was the right thing, 

P: yeah yeah yeah yeah, 

C: but because I was so low. 

P: Yeah 

C: the uppers that I was using boosted the, you know, endorphins or whatever. and it actually ended up balancing that out 

P: Good Lord, that is not a straight path through 

C: It was a lot it was a lot, and you know that’s a whole other podcast but, but that’s honestly how I how I got out of it was by doing drugs, and I don’t want anybody to take my how I got out as a way to get out, don’t do it that way, you know, go to the doctor do it the right way, tell them this isn’t working and they’ll put you on something else that will work, but, but yeah, because of all my other circumstances, it just I lead I, I let myself go down that path and help my depression. 

P: All I can say is, Cheney, you seem like an incredibly, incredibly strong person to get through all that each of those separate things, has enough weight that it will take long to get through sort of mix them all together, is, is just seems like way too much, right, like

C:  it was, it was a lot. Yeah, 

P: so that’s amazing to have you on the other side.

C: Yes, yes. Yeah, and you know I wouldn’t be here without the support of my, my family, they they took me in, when, when things got really hard and, you know, kind of showed me their love again and I was able to, to get out of this situation to get away from him, you know, and start building this this new life for just my daughter and I and it’s been pretty amazing. 

P: That sounds awesome. How old is she now. 

C: She is almost nine. 

P: Oh, wow, what she into 

C: dolls. She loves the imaginary play with dolls I think she has 15 right now. 

P: Wow, 

C: yeah it’s getting a little obsessive, but she you know will do her chores and earn her allowance and then she you know buys them herself. But it’s, it’s just so funny and then she watches these YouTube videos of this other little girl who plays with the dolls for YouTube and then she’s now creating her own YouTube channel, playing with her dolls, it’s just it’s really cute to watch.

 

P: That’s super cute my kids were very into dolls too, which is fun like to listen to those conversations right where they’re making sense of the world around them in this relationship they’re creating it’s very cool.

C: Yeah, it’s so funny and new she’s like disciplining them you know and it sounds like me and I’m just like this, you know, or it’s like better I was like oh I wish I would like a thought of, that’s a good idea, like I’m gonna use that on you later, you know. Yeah, insane. Yeah, that’s really good.

P: That’s very cute. So I’m wondering, now we’re down this road and looking back, is there any advice you’d give to your younger self about like the pregnancy stuff.

C: Gosh….ask more questions. Don’t hold back. After the fact, like let the doctor know let people know around you how you’re feeling, you know because you’re not the only person who have felt that way, like it’s an okay feeling to be struggling, and to not shut people out. 

P: Yeah, 

C: well I should have let more people in.

P: I mean, clearly, I think most people do it your way so that seems like a natural response but it is, you know the statistic is like one in seven women experienced postpartum depression you know so it’s really common and, and it’s just a matter of people understanding that like, oh I need help with this and this can, You know where there’s a way to manage it and

C: and not be ashamed of having these thoughts because you know if you have them, then other people have them too.

P: Yeah, and  think of all that your body has gone through right, it makes sense that there’s some expression of that experience. 

C: Yes, yeah. Absolutely. Awesome, well that’s great advice. 

P: Thank you so much for sharing your story is super interesting to learn about surrogacy. And that’s such a amazing thing to do for someone else so it’s like a nice, nice No it’s going on. 

C: Yes, yeah.

P:Great, thanks so much for coming on.

C:Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.