Month: July 2022

Paulette:

 

Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?

 

Cathryn: Hi, I’m Cathryn Vogley. And I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and have lived in Portland, Oregon for the last 21 years.

 

P:  Oh my god, I’m so jealous. I love Portland. Thank you. I feel like that’s the home of good ice cream and coffee 

 

C: and beer and see 

 

P: oh my god, why would anyone leave?

 

C: Well, the thing is you can be you can go to the mountain. You could go skiing, which I don’t do anymore, but you could go skiing and then go surfing because you can go up to the coast in the same day. That’s people save it. I mean, it was a very strenuous day, but you could do it

 

P:  Oregon has a lot to offer, for sure…so we are here to talk about pregnancy, so Why don’t you walk us into your story? 

 

C: Yeah, I raised two daughters. They are now in their late 40s and I’m one of five children myself. I’m a middle child. My I think my place as a middle child as part of why. Part of my story of why I wanted to be a mother so much, and I actually I wanted to my mother was super stressed and I wanted to do a better job than she did.

 

P:  Are you third of 5 Are you four or five?

C: I’m the third of 5. Yeah, yeah. My mother had three children in three years. Wow. I was the third of those. And they had very little money and catholic and constrict. And they were young and she was so stressed and it was my father and and being the third and my older sister. 18 months old. I mean with colicky and so I once I had my own children, I realized how time consuming and how tiring it is to be the parent of a little child, the baby under a year, but then to have three under three years. 

 

P: Yeah, 

 

C: you’d have one of them screaming all night long. You know? It dawned on me No wonder she was acting nuts  that I was always being pushed to the side and be quiet.

 

P:  Yeah, there’s nothing like your own babies. To make you more sympathetic to your parents. Right? Yeah. So so were your daughters your first pregnancies?

 

P: No, my first pregnancy was baby and I kept secret. Most of my life. I was pregnant at 18 I was in nursing school. And you know, I look back on it now. And 18 doesn’t seem so terribly young, but I thought I felt childish and felt like I had no choice and what was happening. My boyfriend of two years didn’t want to get married. And he walked out. And my parents kind of went nuts and and there was a burden of shame. That was so strong, and it just kind of covered my whole being.

 

P:  So this sounds like an unintended pregnancy. 

 

C: Right 

 

P: As the mother of an 18 year old, I can say 18 Feels pretty young. I think 18 is young, right? 18 is high school.

 

C: I was through my first year of nursing school.

 

P:  So you may have been a little bit ahead. So that seems pretty young to me. Yeah. So it was unintended. And then you find out because you missed your period. That he found out

 

C: Yeah, I missed my period. Yeah, I started to feel funny, you know, sick to my stomach and so on. And I mean, I feel like I knew pretty quickly when I missed my second period. I know you know, this is I’m pregnant. I’m sure I am.

 

P:  Did they have those kits they have now where you can test?

 

C: No, there was no way to tell for sure. No way to tell on your own. And by the way, there were no birth control pills back there. It was illegal. back then. It was illegal to prescribe birth control to an unmarried woman. 

 

P: Wow

 

C: and birth control pills really had just come on the market and they were considered dangerous because they people suffered blood clots. Anyway, so you couldn’t get birth control pill and so the choices were limited as far as how to protect yourself.

 

P:  Today, we’re lucky to have Karen Wilson butor bow on the show. She’s the author of a number of books about adoption, including most recently the baby scoop era, unwed mothers infant adoption and forced surrender. So today we’re going to talk about Katherine’s experience. Her pregnancy and birth took place in 1969, which is in the baby scoop era from post World War Two and 1873. And Katherine is telling us that birth control was illegal unless you were married, which is hard to get your mind around. Maybe you can tell us more things about this period. What did the world look like for a woman who was pregnant outside of marriage?

 

Karen Buterbaugh: I always describe that era of time as black and white with no gray. It was either or so it was a very judgmental time, especially for women. you didn’t have any information, especially during the baby scoop era. So this was a time of of not having any information about sex about birth control. They locked all those books away. You weren’t able to get any birth control methods. Even if they had the pill. They kept it behind the counter. You were not able to get it unless you were married. Same thing with other methods of birth control condoms do we did not have sexual education in our schools. It was considered a taboo topic. So we didn’t have any information highway like you do today. And the baby scoop era is, you know, a very short window of time as you said between the end of World War Two and the beginning of 1973. There are certain criteria during that period of time that existed that that does not exist before or since 

 

P: Ok

 

KB: the baby scoop era and the reason that it ends with 1973 is because early 1973 We had choice. 

 

P: Yeah, right. 

 

KB: You know, it begins when it does because the end of the war brought home many soldiers who had STDs and render their wives unable to conceive not to mention the fact that that’s when baby boomers mostly were born. And we were the ones caught in the web. Because we came to sexual maturity during the baby scoop era. So if we did not have information about pregnancy, how could we prevent it? So there are certain criteria that only applied to that timeline, and there were more babies that were given birth by baby boomer, unmarried females, of course, they call this unwed was the term of the day during that period of time than at any other time before. Since then, we were automatically expelled from school, removed from our neighborhood and removed from our family home. We were deemed inferior.

 

P:  That sounds fairly traumatic. I remember as a young person, even though I was on birth control being spasmodically nervous if you know my period was a day late. 

 

C: Yeah. 

 

P: So I can somewhat relate to the stress of you know, this is not a time in which I want to be pregnant. And if I do get pregnant, like many things will follow. 

 

C: Yeah, 

 

P: I’m sympathetic to 18 year old you. 

 

C: Yeah, well, it wasn’t just this is not a time when I want to be pregnant. I didn’t want my mother to know that I had had sex. I mean, that was huge. For me, it sounds these days. It sounds kind of almost unbelievable. But you know you were expected to be a virgin until you’re married my mother really stressed that it was the highest value to be a virgin and, and, you know, she acted like sex was dirty unless you were married, she seemed to have this aversion to woman’s physicality. Marilyn Monroe was you know, she would tisk and shake her head and my parents were just really pretty tight. And so the shame the fear that I had around pregnancy was primarily in the beginning was that my mother would know that I had had sex

 

P:  and do you think that’s also a kind of religious message or just wider culture in general?

 

C: I think both. I think both, you know, I had loads of friends who were not Catholic, and yet it was pervasive. If you were pregnant back then, and you weren’t married. You had a shot on wedding. And if you were pregnant and not married, nobody knew about it. You know, if you didn’t get married because you went away. Girls in my world didn’t have babies if they weren’t married.

 

P:  So what year is this?

 

C: This is 1968. 

 

P: So it’s before Roe v. Wade. Oh, yeah. So also the idea of an abortion, which maybe because of your Catholic upbringing is not even in your universe. It’s also just not accessible.

 

C: both Yeah. And my boyfriend’s mother suggested that I have an abortion. And It startled me. My parents certainly never suggested that in my 18 year old mine. It was number one scary number two, murder. And, you know, I thought I could, I could die for heaven’s sake, and I didn’t want to I always heard about quote unquote, back alley. Abortion was and I could picture myself going into a wet dark, dirty place and having my insides ripped out. That was my 18 year old thought so that I was offended when she suggested an abortion. And I just said, No, I’m not going to do that.

 

P:  Well, this sounds very stressful. So So at some point, you decided to tell your mother or how does this all unfold?

 

C: Yeah, you know, I finally went to the doctor and he confirmed it and I told my boyfriend while we have to go on. And tell my parents

 

P:  Let me ask a question: Is the doctor kind to or are they judgmental?

 

C: very judgmental. I actually, I didn’t know any doctors and a OB GYN doctors. I had never had a pelvic exam. And, you know, I was pretty scared. And the only OB I knew the only gynecologist I knew was my mother’s doctor. 

 

P: Okay, 

 

C: you know, she had had five kids, and she talked about him. And so I knew his name, and I knew he was in Oakland. So he’s the one I went to. And of course, he had delivered me so and he knew my mother, you know, for five children. He knew her. And so when he said I was pregnant, he was disgusted. And he said, So what are you going to do? Are you going to tell your mother or should I tell her should I call her? And I felt like I was in grade school. And you know, he was the principal and I said, No, you know, I was crying and terribly upset that no, I’ll tell her. And he said, Are you sure? Yeah, I will. So yeah, it was humiliating. From the very start. It was humiliating. And

 

P:  do we look back on that conversation now and think differently about the way that the doctor treated you and the way that you were made to feel,

 

C: you know, I could go on about how everything that happened and how I was made to feel or how I felt, and I can dish out a lot of blame. But you know, things were different back then. And it really, everything it fit, it’s how it was. I couldn’t ever have imagined that my world would change as much as it has. there and now. To think that a young woman would want to get pregnant and not have a husband is just, it’s just, you know, back then it was just incomprehensible. And my feelings have changed toward abortion, for sure. And maybe that’s a whole other program. I don’t know if you want me to get into that or not.

 

P:  Well, we can we can talk about it at the end because, I mean, I think the show is about the transformative process of pregnancy and how it’s different experienced than it is described. And I think abortion is part of that story. You mean you have to tell the whole story, right? It’s all these things that can happen when you’re pregnant. And so many people come and talk about the physicality of pregnancy that’s unanticipated. All the things that come with it. And so, abortion is part of that, right? Like, you can’t, I mean, you could tell half the story, but that seems counterproductive. But let’s, let’s focus on your experience right now. you’ve decided you’re going to tell your mother and do you feel like you’re gonna tell your mother because it’s either you or the doctor or you just think I don’t have any other choice?

 

C: There’s no way out. You know, I mean, I didn’t have a driver’s license. I didn’t have a job. I was in school. My boyfriend was a junior at Notre Dame I think or sophomore, a junior at Notre Dame and he you know, we were both from Pittsburgh. So we had to go away to school and so on. Once you’re pregnant, there’s no way to me there was no way to undo it. And so there was no you know, I couldn’t run away. There was no place for me to reach out to and really, the shame was, like, a straightjacket around me. I just didn’t feel you know, I look back on it. I think I really did have a lot of options. My grandparents lived in Fort Lauderdale. I could have gone and stayed with them. My sister was married. We were very close. I could have reached out to her for help. But I was so ashamed. I didn’t want anybody to know.

 

P:  do you think your sister and your grandparents would react differently than your parents? Oh, my

 

C: well my sister would have for sure I know that. My grandparents. I don’t know. I honestly don’t know. My my family. My parents, the adults in my family work so straight laced and proper that again, for my grandparents to know that I had had sex. I mean, it’s just sex just wasn’t there wasn’t such a thing, you know, and and to admit that it was human. It was I can’t express how humiliating and shameful it was. And and I was so afraid and afraid of what I don’t know. I was just afraid.

 

P:  Well, it sounds important, like afraid of judgment, which seems reasonable, but I’m wondering if your boyfriend felt the same way or you scot free.

 

C: He was a fairly responsible individual. And I don’t know what went on between him and his parents. He was the oldest in the family. of three boys. And he would be the first to graduate from college. The grandparents were immigrants; Italian…. And my mother said he’s gonna pay it and so it ended up he did. Time and whatnot. He comes back in a week and says he can’t get married. She jumps up and screams at him and said get out, get out and don’t ever come back here. So then I ended going to a home for unwed mothers. And it cost $2200 and my mother said that he’s going to pay for it. He shouldn’t get away scot free. And he did pay it and that was a lot of money at that time and he did pay it. He earned it At the railroad. I think the median income that year was like $7000.

 

P: oh Wow. oh my god

 

C: He was, but he definitely totally shut down. I mean, I didn’t get any support from him. He was just gone from my life

 

P:  that sounds unbelievably hard. Also. $2,200 Sounds like a luxury resort which I’m guessing it was not.

 

C: You know you are right. I thought that the hospital delivery, the cost of meals, etc. And I came to the conclusion. I’m remembering right.

 

P: Wow. 

 

C: So I went in November 1, and I was three weeks overdue. had a terrible, terrible labor and delivery.

 

P:  Wait, wait, let me slow you down. You’re per second. What’s the pregnancy like and are you spending your entire pregnancy at this place? Or?

 

C: No, they don’t take into take girls until they were seven months pregnant. And so I had to find a place to hide between five and seven months. I found…

 

P:  so you’re not in school anymore?

 

C: Correct. Things kind of just fell in place so to speak. I found out I was pregnant in them within like may 1 part of May and my term was coming to go I finished the term. And then we had a break, like three weeks. So this is nursing school, not college. So I had a break and everybody cleans out their dorm rooms. Because when you come back after the break, you will move up to a different form level. Right? So it was a three year program. So anyway, I had finished my freshman year, and I waited until everybody cleaned out their rooms. I didn’t go when everybody else went and once everybody was on then I went in in the empty dorm and cleaned out my room and I didn’t tell anyone and so people didn’t know what happened to me because  I didn’t come back

 

P:  This sounds incredibly hard and incredibly lonely 

 

C: Oh, it was. It was. I’m going to start crying

 

P: this is such a weird way to treat young women. Intellectualy I understand was a different understand that this really it’s very hard not to feel angry on your behalf and all these things. All these like larger cultural pressures that you’re being forced to bear

 

C: Yeah, yeah, it was it was such an unjust and cruel thing to put on young women. And the thing is, I’m just one person and there were, you know, the numbers vary. I’ve read 400,000 I read a million, etc. I can’t get a tight grip on statistics And what I’ve read is it’s difficult to get statistics on how many women gave up programs secret during that period during the baby era, the 50s and 60s.

 

P: Let’s talk about the numbers here. So Catherine was saying she’d seen all different kinds of numbers about how common this was. And that it was tricky to get reliable statistics so for sure I have an opinion on both of those

 

KB: yes I do have some statistics the number of illegitimate live births married mothers 700 These six 756 68 and 6972. Numbers have surrendered just years they call them the numbers increased because it was such a ready supply and such a huge demand

 

C: But I’ll tell you there are a lot of people around in writing my book or the writing classes. Somebody would come up with me often, really often and tell me in confidence and still keep the difference. And so that you know as time went on, and I was working on this book, it became clear to me that this is a story that people like me, you know, we’re all older now. We had babies in the 60s. People like me are holding on to their pain and they’re story and not letting it out and doing this writing their story. The way I kept saying, to my writing group. I don’t know. Nobody’s gonna care about this you know, it’s my thing. Its’ what happened to me… And there was one person I might have actually told me in confidence that that was her story and if it wasn’t for my writing group, I probably would not have published my book. But to me to do

 

P:  It is a time capsule in some ways and it is kind of a an incredible story which I’m glad that you shared because even today while Roe v Wade is being challenged in a significant way. It’s hard to believe that this is where we are. But probably from your perspective we’re so lightyears ahead of the what you experienced in this world of pregnancy and secrecy and it just it’s such a lack of awareness and understanding of what pregnancy is and does to a person. Even at 18 How was the pregnancy?

 

C: I had the normal you know, morning sickness, which I had to hide of course. Yeah, I think that the first the first part of my pregnancy was fairly easy. I’m a person who swells up so I had a lot of problems with my feet swelling and being you know, feeling all the time. But then I was my baby was overdue. And, you know, my, let me back up. There were things that happened that I didn’t know. Were going to happen like quickening. For example, you know, I felt the little twinges and they didn’t know what was going on. And I talked to the woman I was living with for those few months, and she kind of cleared it up for me. But as an 18 year old girl with a body a young body like an 18 year old girl. It was the stretch marks that got me that stretch marks. I have dry skin though. You know they started as these line is vertical lines and on my belly and they just kept growing and more of them came and it was it was very disfiguring and very hard for me to see. And to know

 

P:  I can relate to this actually…you have spent your entire life with society telling you that part of your worth is what your body looks like. So it’s impossible to just drop that once you’re pregnant when all these changes happen, right? It’s the all these things in such dramatic conflict. Of course you’re gonna feel unhappy with that. Of course she well that makes perfect sense. This is the most human thing you’re gonna do. And

 

C: I have a double whammy. I was hiding and having the stretch marks and my mother saying you’ll you’ll have a baby and then you’ll move on and then it will all be behind you but not only emotionally wasn’t never behind me. But then I had a young woman you know who was brought up to believe virginity is you know the most precious thing you have that now not only did I not have that, but my body was disfigured and I mean my baby was 3 weeks late and 40 hours of labor. 

 

P: Oh my God 

 

C: alone. And

 

P:  so let’s talk a little bit. Are you getting our OB visits while you’re pregnant?

 

C: You know, I cannot remember that. In writing my book. There were certain things that I just could not get a hold of. In my mind. I can’t you know, I could remember a lot of moments but my OB visits I can’t remember a lot of punch ball moments but my OB visits I can’t remember

 

P:  So before you give birth, how do you know today’s the day?

 

C: Well, like I said, I was always in a home for unwed mothers. Everybody who had come in when I was there when I first came in, was already gone. People came in after I was there already gone and I thought I was never going to have a baby. So finally you know I was having a lot of Braxton Hicks a lot of pains, but I was not dilating enough for them to send me to the hospital. So finally, my water didn’t break. I started having pains and I think I feel like I just willed it into happening. I was going to break apart if I don’t get this baby out. The baby was actually, I think, borderline stressed. I know I was distributed and they didn’t want to do a C section because I was an unwed mother and there will be a scar which, you know, I this is what they told me but as an adult in retrospect, I tend to think that and this is just my opinion, that it didn’t have so much to do with the scar as in with the cost if they didn’t want to do a section because that would mean that’s as much as a surgery. It is. 

 

P: yeah Yeah, 

 

C: and so they let me go and kill you know, they couldn’t let me go anymore I guess so how did I know? I guess just the pain has finally got regular you know when they’re not regular every X number of minutes then you’re not in labor. That’s what I was told

 

P:  What is the home for unwed girls like Is it is it a church? Is it a its own building? What’s it look like?

 

C: It’s his own building. It was fairly modern building for the time was Rosario family home Catholic Charities place run by the Sisters of Charity in Pittsburgh. It reminded me very much of my nursing dormitory. You know, there were you know rooms and there were two people in each room. There was a lounge where you watch TV and play games and things like that. There was a chapel where they had mass every day and we were encouraged to go to maps. There was a dining area and there was a an outdoor area but we didn’t go outside. Some girls would leave but I never did. I did one time my father came over. They were only 20 minutes away. And they came over my dad came over and took me for a ride after dark and I was there for Christmas time. To see the lights and the windows downtown Pittsburgh. That’s something we used to do as a family. Right around Christmas time. We’d looking at the light. And my mother didn’t come she didn’t want to see pregnant. Yeah. So what I remember about Christmas was that everybody else left. I don’t know where they went but they left and I was there alone. And I ate dinner by myself in the dining room. Everything was shut down because it was Christmas. So

P:  they’re really taking this hiding away things seriously.

 

C: Well, I did you know, I I have heard other stories from women like me whose parents would come and get them. Women who they’ll communicate with people but I didn’t. And I my mother suggested that I that my dad take me downtown to look at the windows, but I said I didn’t want to because somebody would see me and we went back and forth. Well then he said nobody will see you to be after dark. And as a matter of fact, you know, she didn’t come because she didn’t want to see me. So it was a constant message from her that she couldn’t handle it

 

P:  did you become friendly with other women who are in the home with you?

 

C: Yeah, they’re my roommate who I don’t write about and my roommate and I became close. And we kept in touch after the births and eventually we drifted apart and with the internet, I’ve tried to find her and I can’t find any anything about her.

 

P:  And does she bear this experience in a similar way that  you did?

 

C: You know everybody’s situation is different. Her sister was who was like eight years old and he was lived in Pittsburgh also, and she would go out occasionally to her sister’s place. But yeah, I think that we were both together in our grief and she was Catholic too in fact I think all the girls there were catholic

 

P:   Wow. So let’s get back to your birth. So you are having regular contractions and and is someone with you or how does that all work?

 

C: No, nobody was with me.

 

P: First of all, her mother didn’t come to the birth right. She had to give birth alone.

 

KB: Oh yeah, me too. Yes.

 

P:  So this is another question about who does this benefit. I don’t understand whose decision this isn’t

 

KB: to terrorize you is to keep you from reoffending. They didn’t want recidivism. They didn’t they did not want you to know what’s coming because they wanted to properly properly terrorized and the parents I think did not want to be exposed to what the reality of what was occurring. So oftentimes, they would even sign the documents in advance that if you get you had a boy, they would be circumcised. I have the signed paper by my mother, and oftentimes the babies were born at night. So so nobody from the maternity home of course wanted to give up their nighttime hours to stay with you. Not even a nurse would be with you. They would just maybe check on you, you know, every hour or something.

 

C: Now they take you to the hospital, you know you’re admitted they kept my door closed. Because I was a Rosalia girl. And so it was all secret. You know, nobody came in. I think one nurse was assigned to me so that it would be limited exposure. I don’t mean that I have private nurse I mean that only one nurse would see me and the doors kept closed. And I was alone and I knew that I had done the wrong thing by getting pregnant and I deserve this. I was a perfect martyr. I couldn’t suffer enough to pay for my sin by 

 

P: God that seems like a lot to bear. And so it sounds like the the delivery was pretty hard.

 

C: Yeah, I you know, after two days, I was pretty worn out and there was a nurse that came in I’ll never forget her name was Lynn, when he came in second evening when I was still there, and she said she couldn’t believe that I was still there and she do as close to me and age. And I remember her crying and saying, You know, I could be I could be you laying there and you could be me. And she said you shouldn’t be alone, and I she said I just can’t I would sit with you myself if I didn’t have to work. So she was one person who showed me some kindness and, you know, real sympathy. My cousin who’s a priest, who arranged for the, for me to go to Rosalia or I should say gave us the information. He came in one day, and he’s the only visitor I had and he said that my mother sent him because she knew I was in labor and she didn’t know what was taking. He just came in gave me a blessing and left

 

P:  That seems incredibly hard. Do you know where the the issue was or service wasn’t entirely in it? Or like Why was the birth taking so long?

 

C: I don’t know. I was 18. I don’t know. I got you know, I was a pain. I don’t know. I just know that they kept saying or not all the way yet. Okay,

 

P:  so that sounds now the way dilated with that sounds like 

 

C: yeah, you know, I think these days they give epidurals so they didn’t do anything like that back then. There was no, there was no sedation at all. And so I was having the baby, you know the final stage of labor and they put me on a cart and put me into the delivery room. I remember being so frantic and holding my hands over my face and saying, Give me the gas. My mother had told me like way before it happened, that they would give gas right when the baby was being born. And they put the mask over my face and I blacked out basically. And when I woke up, the big light was on and there was all this clanging of pans. You know there are people bustling around and I’m laying there and you know trying to I wasn’t wide awake I was still recovering from the ether…you know, it gives you a terrible taste in your mouth and saying you know what? What was going on? And they said, you’re all done you can go back to your room now. Come on over on this car and about the baby. And they said, Oh, you had a girl because back then you didn’t know what you were going to have. Yeah. And so I couldn’t move apparently was a traumatic birth because I went on to bleed for months. And I didn’t have I didn’t have care afterwards. I didn’t know. I don’t know if if something was broken when I was born, or what but I remember I couldn’t afterwards. And my mother said at some point. I don’t know. I think maybe you should go to the doctor. This is not normal. still bleeding after two months.

 

P:And did you go to the doctor?

 

C: I don’t think that’s another piece that I can’t remember specifically. 

 

P: So after you give birth they just send you home or

 

C: no you actually have given birth. A I think most I must have stayed at least one night I don’t remember what time of day she was born. I think she was born the morning but I can’t explain but I know I was sent back to Rosalia very quickly. I don’t remember if it was that same day or if it was the next day. But I was taken out through the kitchen because they you know they go a wheelchair thunking over the floor. And people in the kitchen looking you know, like the only time somebody would be brought through the kitchen I guess is if you’re a Rosalia  girl and you were hiding and there was a cab out back so I went out to service and back to the hospital. And I got into the cab and went to close the door and a nurse comes running out of the hospital. She’s screaming at me Wait, wait, you can’t go yet. You can’t go yet. And she’s got the baby who I hadn’t seen and I had been told over and over and over at Rosalia You can’t see your baby. You can’t hold your baby. If you do, you’ll never be able to give her up. And a nurse went to give her to me. I put my hands up I said no, no, no, no, no, I can’t No, I can’t hold her and the nurse was totally annoyed. And she said Why would you say that? Why don’t want to hold your baby and hoping you don’t ever want your baby. And she said that’s ridiculous how she supposed to get back to the Rosalia and I said I don’t know. Can you bring her in? No. This is the way we do it. Now hurry up. It’s cold out here because in January. She put the baby in my arms and so I held her for the ten minutes or whatever it was from the hospital to Rosalia. That was The only time I got to hold her.

 

P: I’m confused. How is she supposed to get back to Rosalia if you aren’t supposed to touch her. Do you know how it works there, if not at the time, do you know now? 

 

C: So there’s a prenatal section where the young women were waiting and then there was a second area that was nursery and the postpartum section. And the nursery was divided away. So it was the pre prenatals couldn’t go over and see the nursery. Right and I can’t remember specifically but I think that the host part on floor was on a different floor or at least a long ways from the nursery because they wanted to discourage you from seeing your baby.

 

KB: And we of course were oblivious because many of us entering the maternity homes at that point didn’t even know that our babies would be surrendered. Until we had been there for some time and talk to other girls. And we didn’t even get information about what was happening inside our bodies. And that was intentional to keep us from bonding emotionally and physically with our own baby. And we can go into that more about thought reform and brainwashing and how they used it to their advantage to get these babies and kept us away from the new mothers completely separated from them so that we could not learn what their experience was. So keep us properly terrorized.

 

C: So the baby went in the nursery and I went in the postpartum area that was that was a bad time was hard.

 

P: That seems particularly cruel to say you take her over and put her in the nursery. That seems that seems nuts. and then Rosalia is facilitating adoption from the nursery.

 

C: You know, that’s interesting, because my understanding was that the baby would be fostered for a short time like a month or something and then would go to adoptive parents. But I found out afterwards, like during my search, that that’s not what happened that she was actually stayed in the nursery for a long time or something. And then she went into a foster home. And then she was adopted. And she was born in January and she wasn’t adopted until July. 

 

P: Oh wow. 

 

C: And I don’t think I don’t know the circumstances because I don’t know how the adoption system worked. But my understanding is that parents are found ahead of time, you know, not like, you know, a puppy mill or where you go pick out your dog 

 

P: Yeah,

 

C: I don’t know that side of the story. But I know that I was upset and shocked when I discovered that she had not been parented. He had not been with her adoptive parents until so far down you know? Many months later. I think that is an incredible mistake. Or for a baby for my baby. who have not had a mother figure immediately. 

 

P: Yeah. Yeah, 

 

C: talk about the primal wound. Right.

 

P:  Yeah, that’s a well devastating for both he was wearing sounds like

 

taking his babies were actually in foster care. We could have visited them. We could have taken possession of them, had them held them. Reclaimed them had we been told where they were but we were not told we were told in fact that they had gone from our arms to their new family.

 

P:  14:34  

So then you stay in postpartum for a little while then go back to your parents house.

 

Unknown Speaker  14:38  

Yeah, I went back home and my mother was a quitter. Like, you know, it’s just your home now you’re gonna get better you’re gonna get on with your life. You’re gonna forget about a little bit. You just have to keep looking forward. And so that was your mantra every day. Keep looking forward. Look back to think about it.

 

P: One thing I don’t really understand is this press of like move on. Let’s this this

 

KB: forget it ever happened go on life as if it never happened. That’s the mantra of what they said to us all along from the minute they got their hands on us until the minute we were discharged empty handed. Was that you will forget about we promise you will forget that this ever happened. You will go on with your life and you will have a children you can keep you are told do not tell anyone Yeah, they didn’t want what they were doing no to the general public so you know we’re believing them well if you tell everybody’s gonna think you’re you know you’re used dirty laundry you’re you’re in the you’ll never find a decent man who will marry you. You will be able to find a job and you won’t be able to rent an apartment. You won’t be able to feed your baby. Your baby will suffer because of you and what you’ve done. So that was that was you know, to hide the evidence of what was done, don’t tell. And boy did they drill that into our brains. I didn’t tell for 30 years, we were very easily manipulated. And so we were grieving privately and we could talk to no one about it.

 

C; And so I never had a chance to grieve. I never had a chance to talk about it. I felt my shame I was able to push it away and feel like okay, this is what I’ve got. This is I’ve just had to keep going. What else am I going to do?

 

P:  So did you go back to nursing school?

 

C: I enrolled in a different school. And you know, people who wanted to know what happened, why did you leave? Why did you leave St. Joseph. And, you know, well, I wasn’t sure I wanted to be a nurse because I needed to take some time. I mean, that was my explanation in general. Yeah, I started a new school and they allowed me to pick up basically where I left off. So that was good I mean, you know, I lost the year because I was out of school, but I was able to finish. I did a lot of drinking after that

 

P:  God I can imagine. I mean it’s such an enormous thing to imagine putting aside or acting like it didn’t happen or like Academy Award Level stuff you have going there seems unbelievably hard. She did a lot of drinking after that, which I believe is appropriate.

 

KB: Somewhere I came across a syndrome for mothers who had surrender never relinquish. It was a surrender because it was a gun to the head experience. You had no choice at all, except to sign so it’s surrendered and terminology is important. But I read the syndrome where mothers when they returned home, they face drinking, drugs, rape, sleep disturbances, everything pretty much that you would associate with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. We faced when we came home and yet we could talk to no one about it and that’s why they call it disenfranchised grief. So it was no one that we could turn to and yet it felt like our baby had died.

 

P:  And I’m imagining complicated. The pregnancies of your children later.

 

C: Yeah, well, to a point. I couldn’t wait to get married. And I wanted to have a baby right away. I’ve heard and I’ve read other people’s books or stories where they spent the rest of their life thinking about their baby that they gave up. And I couldn’t I couldn’t let myself I just wanted to like my mother said and move on. And so I got married not to the baby father but to a different person. But he I found basically and I think I just I just charmed HimI charmed him into marrying me  like a baby. So when I finally I had a baby pretty quickly, so we were married in April of 71. And my daughter was born in June of 72. And, you know, when I said about, you know about getting pregnant, he said he didn’t want to have kids yet and he knew about my baby, but he didn’t talk about it. He was just like okay, so that happened to you. So I, you know, in the summer we were married in April in the summer I started talking about having a baby and he said it’s too early. I don’t want to have a baby yet. You know, we need to get some money and blah blah, blah. So I got pregnant in September. She was born in June, and I swear it was the happiest day of my life. I just remember holding her and feeling like I finally had what I wanted. I didn’t feel like I have finally replaced my child. I just felt like this is you know, I finally I’m, I’m legitimate. And I can have a baby a real baby that I can keep that I can have a shower for. And people congratulate me and asked me about her and fawn over her and it was it was the opposite of everything I had been through

 

P:  I guess I can see where you’re looking to square what happened previously in some ways. Do you look back at 18 year old you and is the shame dispelled? Do you think now with your experience like that none of that was right. And that wasn’t my fault. And it’s, you know, sex is human and natural. And you know, it was it was an accident. 

 

C: That’s a real interesting question. It really took my whole life up to that point and I think when I turned was when I was about to publish my book, you know, and that’s recent, right? And I put it on social media that I was, you know, I had finished my memoir and I were it was about having a baby at 18 and giving her away, and people in my family, my siblings knew, but people in my family and in my general point, nobody knew. And so when I did that, that’s that’s when I felt like I opened the doors. And like I’m saying it to the world and that’s when my shame started to dissolve. When I first started the memoir, which I never intended public, I used a pen name my name was Susan Siskin. I think is pretty cool name. But I was I was told no, you can’t do that when you write a memoir. 

 

P: Yeah. 

 

C: You can’t do that. And so then I started calling myself Cathy in the book and that was really, really hard. And eventually when somebody in my writing group say that, Oh, you’re going to publish this Sunday and I remember having a flip flop in my chest  like, Ah, no, no, I can’t do that. No. And, you know, as time went on, I’ve been working on for many years as time went on, it became more solid. And you’re not supposed to write a memoir to heal. That’s what I read. that’s not why I did it. But that’s what happened. It’s been a tremendous help me be able to talk about it, you know, in the name of my book is I need to tell you, I still don’t know why I need to tell the story. I still don’t know why. But I think of it is kind of like a whole thing that’s kind of like an abscess, and you know it, it opened and I just have to keep on getting it all out. You know, for to heal. And I don’t know if it will ever go away. I’m not sure I’ve been saying before I got the publisher I said I just it’s just too much for me. I’m just gonna, I’m gonna erase all my computer files. I’m gonna burn all of my paper. I’m just gonna walk away. I’m not going to talk about this or write about this anymore. And you know, my writing group friends. You can’t do that and just take a break and get away from it. And oh, it’s been a hard process.

 

P:  I can imagine there’s so much packed into the year that you spent hidden and the years after when you’re not supposed to talk about it and not supposed to feel it and not supposed to have any emotional energy around it. But it did happen in Israel and you know, you’re a person so that all that stuff lives in you right in some way until until you acknowledge it. What are your girls say? Didn’t you say to girls?

 

C: Yeah, yeah, I have two girls. I didn’t tell them about it until they were well out of high school. I think they were around 20 You know, one was maybe 920 something and they were they were pretty shocked and they just kind of were like, Whoa, go. So what are we supposed to do? And what about us? And of course I haven’t found her at that point. I wasn’t looking for a point I just said, I just wanted you to know that. You know, I was I was through my divorce and a lot was changing in my life and I felt like it was time to tell them they’re grown up. So the baby first child I have has never been discussed. You know, they there was that it was it was very special was very limited. And when I started writing, my youngest daughter was 100% supportive. He said I I’ll help you whatever way you would ask me about the older one, I think sees me strictly as her mother. And not somebody who had a relationship before she was born and had a baby is not interested in a half sister. Yeah. So when I began my search, my oldest daughter said I’m just afraid for you Mom afraid to get hurt. Her she’s always she’s been protective. And the younger one has read the book. The older one has the book, but I haven’t heard a word about the book from her and I don’t want to ask her about it. I don’t want to put her on the spot. So I’m just waiting, hoping that at some point, you’ll have process which she needs to and maybe she’ll talk about it.

 

P:  So it sounds like you found your first child?

 

C: I did. Yes, I did

 

P:  And are you allowed to contact them or how does that work? Is there such a thing as allowed?

 

C: Well, in my case, I discovered that, you know, Pennsylvania had a law in a closed adoption, as do many states. The records were SEALED for 99 years. And so after my divorce in the 90s I started wanting to find her but there was no way before the internet. There was no way to really, really search

 

P:  I’m imagining that it’s easier now with genetic stuff. It’s much easier.

 

C: Yeah. Because the records were SEALED for 99 years and and when I started searching for her when I started writing this book, I was told, you know the records are sealed, etc. And this was like 2016 17. After a long period I discovered kind of by accident that the laws had actually changed in Pennsylvania in 2011. 

 

P: Oh, wow. 

 

C: That with a certain process, the records can be opened. And it seemed that nobody knew that because the baby’s father is an attorney doing works represent located and I contacted him and asked him for help and he said nobody can get into those records. So he didn’t even know that the live change. But I contacted after a year of false leads. I contacted Catholic Charities social service department and I couldn’t believe it that right away. The woman said yes, we could find your daughter. Wow. You know after a year of letter writing and the process is I don’t know what it is today. But this is what it was then you hire or they have an intermediary, a search agent. So costs $300 And they give the service agent the record. The search agent connects with the baby the person and the parent, and so everybody’s still living so that was done a letter is sent out to each of them, letting them know that the first mother is searching and asking, you know why and there’s no obligation obviously, and if they would, if they’re interested, contact the third agent not me, but the agent. And so that was quite an emotional process for me. So some time went by, like three weeks I think it was And finally I got an email from my daughter. And that was it was pretty emotional. So she lives on the East Coast and I live on

 

On the East Coast and I live on the West Coast, and we email back and forth several times a day for a long time, months and months. And eventually it kind of dwindled. And then we were just texting and the cracks dwindled. And now I don’t hear from her.

 

P:  So the original connection, what she said was emotional. Is it emotional, happy or emotional angry or, like what’s the tenor?

 

C: My first thing was to ask for forgiveness to tell her that I do want to give her up and tell her I’m sorry that he didn’t have her mother with her to raise her and she wrote back and said, there’s nothing to forgive. Thank you for giving me a life. And then there was a lot of curiosity. You know her questions and that’s what the emails were questions about her beginnings and what I went through, and I think I was I gave her everything I could. I gave her pictures of my family, who wanted to hear my voice I sent her a voice recording she’s so guarded She would send me pictures. He wouldn’t talk on the phone. I think she’s a natural thing. She’s afraid. She’s afraid to trust. And I was so I went through a period where I was so anxious to meet her that I offered to fly to her airport she’s in a big city, fly to the airport where she lived, and meet her there for lunch, and then get on a plane and go back to Oregon. Like in the same day, just so she wouldn’t have to worry about anybody. You know, her parents were a consideration for her because he’s very loyal to them and didn’t want to upset them. Her father was upset though, I guess he said What does she want after all these years? And you know, she’s I think she was 45 years old or 46 years old

 

Yeah, and I would have loved it. If parents had contacted me. I would have loved was still love to speak to her mother communicate with her mother and find out what she was like growing up. I would just love that.

 

P:  It is incredible story and I I so appreciate you sharing it. And I I can’t help but feel angry for younger you that that this is what you experienced and that this was deemed okay by so many people. So many people thought this was an appropriate way to treat young women who were you know, in a really hard situation no matter how even if you’ve gotten married. It’s really hard to be pregnant the first time. Yes, especially as a young person and it’s not like you could go and get you know What to Expect When You’re Expecting or look something up on the just you don’t have any of those resources. So just the like conspiracy of people around you to say, Oh, this is appropriate treatment of someone in your circumstance. Just I just I maybe I’m not being empathetic enough to those people but I just feel angry. I just feel like that all of that is wrong.

 

Unknown Speaker  3:19  

You know, I really appreciate that. And that if something that started coming out or coming to me and and surprising my awareness when I started writing about people, particularly my mother, people would say, you know how how my mother was and how cruel and I didn’t know that until I started talking about and I started realizing, you know, like you said I started being getting a perspective on everything that happened. And picturing myself as a mother and having an eight year old daughter and having all that happen. And I just can’t connect doesn’t, you know, there’s, regardless of the times or whatever I never would have been able to allow my regardless of the shame and whatnot. I mean, no, I wouldn’t have been able to do that.

 

P:  4:23  

Yet. Well, it’s amazing that you wrote the book. I’m so glad it’s published and will you remind us of the name? Yeah,

 

Unknown Speaker  4:28  

my name is I need to tell you, I need to tell you. Yeah, I need to tell you. Yeah. And it’s funny because people will say, well, what’s the name? overhead and who’s on first? Exactly.

 

P:  4:44  

I’ll put a link in the show notes so people can find it. Thank you. So much for coming on and sharing your story.

 

C: Thank you, Paula. Thank you so much.