Episode 103: What Happens When Your Milk Doesn’t Come in Right Away? Colleen’s Story + Lactation Consultant insights, Part I
Episode 90SN: From Motherhood Myths to Parenting like a Yogi: Anja’s Story, Part II
In today’s episode Anja and I talk about one of the biggest, most oppressive misconceptions about motherhood and what you can do to free yourself from it. We also discuss:
* how not being in control can actually be a good thing;
* how being present makes you better able to respond to needs, including your own, and
* how the energy you bring into the room and the world has a big impact on both you and your kids.
Historical VBAC Rates
United States
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3066476/
Canada
https://www.cmaj.ca/content/190/18/E556
Brooke Shields & PPD
https://slate.com/technology/2005/06/down-came-brooke-shields.html
https://www.today.com/popculture/brooke-shields-battles-postpartum-depression-wbna7748616
https://www.today.com/popculture/brooke-shields-blasts-cruises-ridiculous-rant-wbna8427947
Audio Transcript
Anja: To me a huge weight lifted like I don’t actually have to figure it all out. Let me settle. I don’t have to figure it all out for everybody.
Paulette 0:13
As this clip suggests Anya and I talk about one of the biggest, most oppressive misconceptions about motherhood and what you can do to free yourself from it. Welcome to war stories from the womb. This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant, being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition, you can find on all kinds of media to more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and release that new person from your body into the world. I’m your host, PK. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls avoided I have trouble with almost every aspect of this transformation. In today’s episode, Anya and I talk about how you are not in control and how they can actually be a good thing. How being present makes you better able to respond to needs including your own and how the energy you bring into the room and a world that has a big impact on both you and your kids. We pick up this week with Anya talking about her feelings and stepping into her second birth after the first birth didn’t meet any of her expectations or hopes.
Anja 1:25
For sure, and there’s someone else involved, right it’s not really just a decision for me and my body. There’s a baby there, you know that what if I make a decision wouldn’t really mess it up? Yeah, making the
PK 1:35
choice for someone else is such a heavy burden, right that you’re that you will end up doing 1000 times after that, but that’s pretty dramatic. I agree. It does.
Anja 1:45
It does add the loss of control. I had no idea that I really did like to control what my life was like my expectations and up until birth. I think I was able to control enough of my environment. You know that this was in a shock to more than just
PK 2:02
the birthing process. It leaves you with the impression that you have control which Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah. But yes, yeah. So how much space is there between your son and your daughter? Two and a half years? Okay. So, so does that mean that you have processed all the trauma before you got pregnant again? Or I thought I had Yeah,
Anja 2:21
yeah, I had really had the space and the support just sort of grief that I did. But I really wanted this vaginal birth, which is so funny to me now because what do you get a pat on your back? Whoa, you did it that way right. But at the time, it was super important to me and I had to seek a different doctor and find actually into I then took a little bit more on interview doctors to say this is what I want. And I found an amazing doctor who was surprised even it was a book that was set seem so uncommon here that he was like I will be there and he he fought for me because really, he was feeling very strongly that we should we were very quick to move he thought he was gonna have to be another C section because she just did not want to come out after hours and hours.
PK 3:06
So you get pregnant easily. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Is the pregnancy similar? Does it feel the same?
Anja 3:13
It I think because you then have a toddler and felt sort of that I the sickness lasted longer in this one and tiredness and I had been swelling like the ankle, the feet and that kind of thing happening with her which I didn’t have with my son. And so that part was different slightly. It was really I just remembered that one and I had many moms that we’ve got another before I could rest when I want to rest on that I had somebody who’s like, let’s go to the park. Yeah.
PK 3:45
So I had a C section for my first for a variety of reasons. I chose to have a C section again the second time around. My doctors were relieved when I told them I would not be trying for a VBAC.
Anja 3:56
Absolutely, yeah, I remember sort of really having to seek out and ask people and try to find out, you know, that I wanted this
PK 4:05
was much harder. It was a much harder thing to gain access to 20 years ago. I found a couple of articles in medical journals that suggested in the late 90s into the early 2000s, the VBAC rate was on a steep decline. To give you an idea of that decline. One study that looked at VBAC rates across eight academic centers in the US found a rate of 28.3% in 1996, and 9.2% in 2004. These declines are attributed to a complicated mix of things like perceptions that the backs weren’t safe changes in hospital policies and shifts in the health of Burling people. I have faced the challenge of finding help with this procedure. In Canada, not the US, but it looks like these trends extended across the border. I’ll link to the articles about the US and Canadian rates of vivax in the shownotes if you’re interested.
Anja 4:59
And then I did start to advocate for myself, you know, having been through it at least you have a bit more but idea don’t there’s no control. We get that but it was yeah, a different sort of setup. But I remember going in to the hospital was a different hospital. I had said I do want epidural right from the beginning, no fighting at gunpoint, and my husband was there saying oh, she just like a small dosage or something and I really smacked him. I went no, just whatever you give.
PK 5:31
Why is he Why is he standing?
Anja 5:34
That I would have wanted it to still be in the birth. Okay, like more of the feeling of it, then he felt that maybe last time having the epidural stock my body working, okay, same way, okay. Is what my I think. And so I ended up pushing a long, long time for her and they ended up having to use the backing thing on her head quarterbacking to hold it down. And then yeah, that was funnily enough recovering from that took a lot longer than the C section one and I don’t know why that is because I had two people there that I had really bad. I told really bad and then had to have those stitches. And yeah, that was my memory.
PK 6:21
At the time did a birth feel like a triumph? Like now I actually okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it’s nice thing what you focus
Anja 6:30
on right?
PK 6:31
I know but it’s nice that you focus on this thing and it worked out and then you felt satisfied, right?
Anja 6:35
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. That was yeah, pretty much so and felt very blessed to have a little girl and it was very much we are done. Let’s get a puppy.
PK 6:48
Totally. So you suggested earlier that that birth was followed by a postpartum depression or so. What how did that look different and and what did you notice?
Anja 7:00
A lot of crying, a lot of crying everything about very overwhelming. I don’t know how in my head. I was able to but I was still working at our business and I was still going backwards and forwards and I would go to work. Come back and nurse and then go back to work and my husband would be home with the kids and I just was in my head. I cope. I’m not one of those women. We just cope. We can manage it all you know, and as a detriment to myself. And so I did eventually go to see a doctor and I cannot recall the drug but she really didn’t particularly Listen to me that I had just had a baby and that I had a toddler at home and she was quick to prescribe me something and I didn’t take it. It was some very strong addictive something. And so I kind of sorted out a little bit by myself with the call it sorting out like I just was able to let it as much as possible happen. The tears and things and the change my body was pretty bad for that one I’d been quite a bit of weight I felt very like moving victory. I also felt you know, I breastfed both of them and I definitely felt for my second child but it was it felt more of a chore because I’ve got things to do now. Just sit in a door with a lovely face. I was like breastfeeding as you as a mom wife walking around doing stuff, that kind of thing.
PK 8:23
That sounds tricky. So how long would you say that postpartum lasted?
Anja 8:27
I think a good five, six months. Okay. Yeah. After and then Yeah, I bet for in my recollection I was she was about three to three months old when I went to the doctor. And then it was just yeah. Yes, that’s what I would say.
PK 8:43
I would also say probably 20 some odd years ago, postpartum depression was so not a thing we talked about or recognize that I can imagine your doctor not focusing on it because it just wasn’t a thing for us. Right? It wasn’t.
Anja 8:58
That’s very true. That’s very true. And I remember her being a young doctor because my original doctor wasn’t there or something. And I just I remember feeling kind of shamed by it a little too, and a little more like a well, you know, here take this and then and I remember saying to them, but this is pretty addictive. And really, probably if she just listened to maybe a cup of tea and said, you know, oh, god, yeah, that is a lot. No wonder. Yeah, yeah, would have would have made a difference out.
PK 9:28
Okay, so postpartum depression was not really a thing about 20 years ago when Anya and I were giving birth. I know that this is gonna sound like one of those stories where we walked uphill in the snow to school, uphill both ways. I think one of the first times I was introduced to the idea of postpartum depression was through the actress Brooke Shields, who described her experience of postpartum depression. In her book Down came the rain in 2005. And her public announcement was met with a range of reactions. And weirdly Tom Cruise is involved in this story. At the time, Tom Cruise, yes, Top Gun Tom Cruise, criticized the actress for taking drugs and became particularly passionate about it on an interview on today. So here’s a quote from an article talking about it. Tom Cruise’s yelling at Matt Lauer and he says you don’t know the history of psychiatry. I do. And then he went on to say that there’s no such thing as chemical imbalances that need to be corrected with drugs and that depression can be treated with exercise and vitamins. And then Brooke Shields responded that he those remarks were a disservice to mothers everywhere. So that weird cultural moment actually happened. And it’s all to illustrate that Anya experienced postpartum depression at a time when it wasn’t openly discussed like it is today. Yeah. So you get over the postpartum period, you know, the depression and everything. And you decide no more kids. We’re not having sex.
Anja 10:56
Yeah, yeah. I was completely overwhelmed with parenting. We incredibly so and I came pretty cocky into the situation having been a nanny. Yeah, I know what to do. And I still was not prepared for the full on. Fear. Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this wrong needs of a child constantly, you know, 24/7 meeting you needing something from you. I found it super super overwhelming and I was so thoroughly enmeshed in there with my children, which is not a healthy place to be. You know, now, you know, but you know of us. And so yeah, that sort of changed a lot of my awareness of myself. I did feel incredibly good as like having been able to make and bring children into the world. There was something about it myself, my femininity, my confidence in myself, my mother bear. I didn’t know that was going to come out so strong, but I really believed only I could be the best person for them. No one else could watch them or be with them. And, you know, with work and running our business and all these things I just I didn’t think to ask for help. I didn’t know that was an option. I didn’t want to be vulnerable enough. I believed I can do it all that’s so
PK 12:24
interesting, given that you were a nanny for someone else, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Anja 12:29
Yeah. And a very judgmental nanny. I’m a great man. He was really good with the kids and fun and playful that kind of thing. But I really would say, Oh, this is your children. Because also hard on the mind. Yeah, it’s not the ghetto in my generation. That’s what you know, the focus was on the moms and the martyrdom of mom motherhood and giving it all up and for your children. It should all be about children and I said sarcastically now because to me that one of the biggest misconceptions from growth right through to raising them, that it shouldn’t all be about my children. parenthood, motherhood. I can’t talk about father is all about me actually. So
PK 13:12
this this feels like a bit of the magic. Why don’t you lay some Yogi parenting on us. And let us know what you would have done for younger Ania what what could you have told younger Ania to make this room easier?
Anja 13:26
Yeah. Great question. First of all, we really bring kindness into the picture. Kindness for myself. I would have told myself that it’s okay to ask for help. You do not have to do it all. And the yogi side would be you know, how about you just stand still a minute before you respond? Before all those emotion that you know you’re like a emotional coach to your child right as they’re growing up and I’ll take it around and I feel it so much in my body and my body would carry theirs and mine and my husband’s and societies and lives and sometimes just pausing and taking a big graph can really change how you respond to something, you know, how really seeking help and support and asking for it is actually a superpower rather than not. And then the real, underlying part is our kids are super, super wide. They do not need us to figure it all out for them. We have our wisdom, but they were trusting our intuition. We’re being present in our body. If we are using that beautiful lifeforce of breath in different ways to bring us to this present moment. You see things differently. I’m running ahead Busy, busy, busy, the whole time like to work and this and I can cope and I can do and my own personal self was completely neglected. I didn’t know who I was anymore. I was so mission on his mom and his, her mom and these kind of things and kind of realizing their wisdom of their own life experiences actually has nothing to do with me so lean back.
PK 15:08
So on your writes about this in her book, relating what you can learn from yoga and apply to your quote, real life. She writes, Many of us unconsciously lean forward thinking we are alone. So many of us walk and sit leaning into life. Many are racing forward leaning into other people’s business. We leave with our chin rather than our heart. And then she goes on to write all of this relates to parenting we are in our children’s lives. We are leading so far into them that there’s no space for them or us to breathe fully. We’re in charge of everything about them and all that they do each day. We make it our business to be involved in every aspect of their lives. We’re coming from a place of possession. I see this so often and mothers are consumed by this. They’re leading so far and that it’s surprising that they have not fallen over want to walk around the outside of school buildings with a megaphone shouting step away from your child.
Anja 16:01
That’s a whole too much.
PK 16:04
No, that’s That’s awesome. So how did you how’d you get from the enmeshed to the person you are right now who can I give advice?
Anja 16:13
Right? So when I was pregnant with my daughter, I started some yoga classes. I think I had maybe taken some a bit before I wasn’t I really actually didn’t believe in it. I didn’t really like it. I didn’t like the idea of touching my toes. I certainly did not like the idea of sitting with myself and being quiet all the things which I now know vital. And I had started taking some yoga classes. I think we’re at that point maybe they were both in school or preschool I think my daughter maybe be five. And the transformation for me was super slow, but it started to be all the stuff that I did off the mat using the skills that I learned on the map. Right. So the present wet moment awareness, right, which, obviously as a yogi, for yourself, you you there are moments on your map doesn’t happen the whole time. But there are moments that you’re fully present in the breath. Mind is clear, right so you give yourself a chance to be still. And so I just started I was going I think every Thursday morning for about six years or so I would go into this yoga class. And it was the feeling afterwards and the feeling of being so much more aware of my own body how my natural stance was holding my breath. Yeah, so my natural stance was full on anxiety intention, never knew that was like that had to peel back the layers or suddenly, you know, you’re I’d be like, feel like I’m relaxing. I’m making a cup of tea or cutting vegetables and my shoulders are up here. My jaw was tense and I had no idea. So like I said from before, it was really a head walking round. body underneath that I had no no connection to. And I grew through my yoga on my yoga mat to really like myself. Again. I’m really kind of lovable, more in love with my style, as imperfectly as I am, as you know, bits of me where my mind goes how I am what I what matters. I didn’t realize I was an empath at all. Meanwhile, I’ve been soaking up people’s energy since babyhood of my own. And so that was all the tie in and then I realized how simple but difficult it is to be fully present. First for me, and then for my children. Yeah, and that was a big change around and how I planted.
PK 18:37
It is it is an amazing transformation and I came to yoga much later than you did, and I was like an athletic person before then. And for me, the most shocking thing was to coordinate breath with movement in that really controlled way which I had never done before. And I had a really hard time doing I was really surprised that it was so hard to do that. But it is you know, the breath work is so powerful and it is this dual connection between mind and body where body can dramatically affect mind. I mean you don’t really think of it that teachers don’t really think of it as a two way.
Anja 19:17
Yeah, absolutely. And I think going back to sort of the yogi part of things, the more I liked myself, the more I showed up as a kinder mom. Right, the more I could be when I say parenting is more about me. I bring energy into the room I come in as a bitch nobody’s really being very nice right and and I’m not talking about ever perfection I am so far from perfect, beyond imperfect beyond imperfect that realizing that I actually feel my own energy can change whole situation, how I respond to something changes the whole situation. You know, being caught up in like kids are really annoying and they fall on and they trigger you in all kinds of ways all the way from little babies who don’t want to sleep all the way up to Team slamming doors and their life choices. It’s a continual learning, but it all starts with me that was one of the biggest changes. I think yoga really was the catalyst for me for that. Yoga was my therapy I guess to know myself more to realize you know, a certain twist or certain thing I could just be bursting into tears and crying and I wouldn’t know why. But my body was just like, Oh, thank god she’s just finally letting go letting go.
PK 20:33
Yeah, that’s amazing of becoming embodied is a is a huge deal. Right that has a dramatic effect on who you are in the world and how you show up and I agree with you that it is it’s easy to be overwhelmed as a parent, right? There’s lots going on. I don’t know how universal This characteristic is, but to take on the emotional, emotional content of your kids. moods. feels very natural to me feels like the thing that you would do. Yeah, that’s a that’s a tricky thing to do within your own body. And I mean, you’re
Anja 21:10
absolutely, absolutely and, you know, having the compassion to I mean, Yoga I started was called propelling yoga. And that’s why they eventually went and had my teacher training and then that’s really my environment is really about self compassion, compassionate self acceptance. And I would imagine practically everybody I’ll speak just for myself, though, is a feeling of unworthiness that comes with us. From childhood through divorce and they were back just having parents to people like nobody, you will figure it out. From them and compassion for my son and, you know, being able to say sorry, I messed up and being able to say, Okay, guys, I’m out of here. I need a timeout. I just can’t handle the emotions. And I’ve even to this day, I find that the hardest part to keep myself separate from them not detach, you know, filling my own energy field working on rooting them all in my head and I’m stressed and I realize I don’t know enough my stuff. I couldn’t cope with a lot in one time. Now I’m pretty strong person. Now and there’s lots going on in my life and obviously, loads of ups and downs and a huge big thing. But I really for me, I need to keep coming back to me in order to be able to sort out a problem deal with a death deal with, you know, money issues deal with marriage, you know, and for that it’s the honoring of myself again, that there has to be the change. I can’t change who this child is. Yeah, and do my damnedest, but really, if I see them in the light of love, just on their own journey and their own experience. I felt for me a huge weight lifted like I don’t actually have to figure it all out. Very subtle. I don’t have to figure it all out for everybody. You know, I actually they can figure that out for themselves. And the best I can do is lead by example, you know, and again, not in perfect ways. Like if I don’t if everybody feels like they’ve been really unkind. Okay, hey, I’ll have a look at yourself. I just realized I snapped at them and shouted at them and I’m not being very kind right. It’s that kind of constant self awareness and reflection. Yeah,
PK 23:27
that sounds like an amazing journey and an amazing thing that you’re giving to other people through your coaching business. So how can people find you you’re on the web?
Anja 23:36
Yeah, my biggest place that I hang out and offer different solutions and things that would be on Instagram as Yogi parenting coach. Yeah, that’s kind of the main one. I do have a website things that I’m just not very active. I need all those things sorted out sometime but I like Instagram. So that’s really where you’re seeing most of me and you can book with me and you can I wrote a book about parenting from this place. How yoga changed the way I parent. Get that on Amazon. So yeah.
PK 24:06
Well, that’s super cool. Congratulations, and thank you so much for sharing your story. That’s amazing. Well, thank you very
Anja 24:13
much. I’m glad we connected. I think what you’re doing is an awesome thing, because we really need real authentic stories out there for that next generation generation to speak about sugarcoating, right? Yeah,
PK 24:27
totally, totally. Thanks for sharing both her birth stories and her journey through parenting and how yoga shaped her view and approach to parenting. I will end this episode with two more excerpts from her book. She writes, becoming a parent is a big old bumpy ride. The moment I think I’ve got something figured out. It all switches up again. And then I am again trying to figure it out from scratch. It’s important to be told this before we become parents, it needs to be transparently said and not how bad it must be included in the preparation with having a baby along with shopping for maternity clothes and buying the highchairs it is only the honest truth of what’s to come that will. It is only the honest truth. of what’s to come that will give us real expectations of what real life parenting is all about. Our kids have the longest relationships we will ever have. So I found that really moving. And one other thing I wanted to share is she in a little section she titled yoga doesn’t fix. She wrote yoga in and of itself doesn’t fix things. it didn’t for me. It didn’t change my circumstances, the depths, sorrows, fears or hardships, but it helped guide me to change how I responded to them. It gave me choices and allowed me to process some of it through my body and brand rather than my mind. Thanks again, Tanya, and thank you for listening. If you liked the show, share with friends, and subscribe so you don’t miss an episode, we’ll be back next week with another inspiring story.
Episode 88SN: Developing skills of Self Advocacy to create a better Pregnancy, Birth & Postpartum : Megan’s story, Part II
In today’s episode, you’ll hear the second half of my conversation with Megan. She shares:
* how she was able to identify what turned out to be PostPartum Depression in herself given that her symptoms didn’t match her sense of the condition
*a useful perspective on managing the difficult transition from one to two children and
*insights about what she wished she’d known about her relationship with her OB before the birth of her first child.
Crohn’s Disease & Pregnancy
https://www.webmd.com/ibd-crohns-disease/crohns-disease/managing-the-effects-of-crohns-disease-during-pregnancy#:~:text=Active%20Crohn’s%20disease%20raises%20the,as%20compared%20with%20pregnant%20women.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/crohns-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20353304
https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/504701
Audio Transcript:
Paulette Kamenecka: Welcome to War stories from the womb.
This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition you can find on all kinds of media, to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and release that new person from your body into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls.
In today’s episode, you’ll hear the second half of my conversation with Megan. She shares how she was able to identify what turned out to be PPD in herself given that she didn’t originally realize she was experiencing symptoms that were connected to the condition, a useful perspective on managing the difficult transition from one to two children, and insights about what she wished she’d known about her relationship with her OB before the birth of her first child.
Let’s get to her story.
Megan: So I was really scared going into my second birth because I was scared I was gonna have to have another C-section. I didn’t want another emergency c-section.
But I did wanna try to have a V back. So I was trying to balance, I don’t wanna schedule a C-section because I don’t wanna do it if I don’t have [00:27:00] to, but I also don’t wanna end up in the same situation because it was, it was just horrible. emergency C-sections are, it’s terrible. I think they’re, you’re, it’s really painful.
The recovery took forever. It was just not a good situation. But I did have this wonderful, wonderful doctor who really cared about us. She really, really wanted it to work for us. She was also very practical and wasn’t gonna push it if it wasn’t gonna work. So she would tell me what was best, basically.
I learned that I can ask more questions and get more information than I had the first time. But it was really, it was really the birth itself that sort of gave me back to myself in a way, if that makes sense.
Yeah. So so labor started on its own. We went to the hospital and we, we went a bit earlier than most people would because it was a second birth and because I’d had a C-section, so we, they wanted to be monitoring me fairly well. My doctor didn’t end up being the [00:28:00] one who delivered my son, but one of her colleagues who was also wonderful was there.
And so it went sort of similar except for I wasn’t induced. So it was a few hours of sort of active labor, but not. Baby’s coming, pushing out kind of labor. I went into transition this time, I was prepared for it. So I knew like I might be at four centimeters. Once I start hitting those really strong, powerful contractions, I will dilate very fast.
And I let them know that ahead of time, this is what, this is, what will probably happen. And then with him it was different. My water broke very dramatically and he just dropped right down. Wow. The nurse was like, well, let’s check you. And she’s like, oh, that’s ahead. We are having this baby opens the door, calls out, we’re having a baby in here,
And I pushed for about half an hour with him. And I was scared because the doctor, he was. He was kind of doing little frowns and hmms and I was like, what is he stuck? And he’s like, no, no, he’s not stuck. [00:29:00] We are having this baby today. Everything is okay. I just, I wasn’t quite stretching as well as he would’ve liked.
So he did end up doing an app episiotomy which some people are probably gonna be like, oh no, not the app episiotomy. But for me, coming from an emergency C-section that was nothing, I was not even the least bit concerned. I’m like, do what you gotta do, it’s fine. And it was totally different.
So he comes out, they put him right on my chest. I got to hold him for an hour before they even checked him or did anything cuz he was, you know, he was fine. And we had him with us the entire time and it was just, it was absolute bliss in comparison. It felt so easy, , it was just yeah, it was amazing.
And and I was able to nurse him. I nursed him for 13 months and he was this really happy, chubby little blonde boy, and he was just an absolute dream. And then, you know, it’s the whole mothers and sons thing. I was completely in love with him. . It was just ridiculous. His big sister was completely in love with him to, [00:30:00] and yeah, it just sort of, it was really healing, it felt like, cuz I’d also had postpartum depression and I was really angry.
You had postpartum depression after the first one. Mm-hmm. . And it sounds like you changed your doctor. Oh yeah. Okay. So, absolutely did. So maybe walk us a little bit through, through that. How does that process happen? How do you, figure out you have postpartum depression?
I didn’t figure it out strangely until she was about seven or eight months old. That’s when I realized, okay, something is wrong. This is not normal. This is not me. I was just angry. and I’m not usually an angry person. And, and I feel like just for a lot of people, even if you don’t have postpartum depression, having kids can trigger you in ways you’ve never been triggered before.
And the sleep deprivation, I feel like for me, I know that’s a big factor, but also just the trauma and all of the, dashed hopes, and everything was you know, and it was just, it was this [00:31:00] huge transition and I did not take to it as well as I was hoping. I absolutely loved my baby from , before she was even born, would take a bullet for her without a thought, loved her.
And also staying home with her drove me nuts. She wasn. A difficult baby, but she wasn’t an easy baby either, and she, she really likes attention still . Yeah. And I’m an introvert and I’m with this person who just wants me to pay attention to them.
Yeah, so I’m an introvert and now I’m with this person who wants my attention 24 7, like all the time. And it’s exhausting. It’s just really exhausting. But I also wasn’t getting out or seeing friends.
I didn’t really have friends to see. And so it was really isolating, but also you’re never alone. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m sleep deprived and my body’s been through all this trauma. So yeah, just all of those [00:32:00] things came together and , I was just mad. The thing is, I don’t think I realized because I wasn’t feeling down and blue and depressed, I was feeling angry and resentful a lot of the time.
So it wasn’t until about seven, eight months that I realized, okay, this isn’t normal, something’s wrong. And I talked to my family doctor, and she said, I agree, something’s going on here. What would you, how would you like to handle this? And so I didn’t go on medication, but I did end up speaking to a mental health therapist a few times, and that was so helpful because I was able to just, Let it all out without worrying about hurting her feelings or upsetting her because she cared about me because she, you know, she was an objective, not emotionally involved person.
Yeah. So I could just say anything on all of the things and just release it. And she just validated my feelings and gave [00:33:00] me some tips on maybe trying to get out of the house a little bit more , have some time to myself. And it didn’t like go away, but it helped a lot with managing it. Yeah.
that’s the other thing , you know, the fourth trimester is shockingly hard.
Mm-hmm. , I remember even to get a shower and I’d put the baby in the bassinet. Even that felt like a a tiny bit of release cuz you don’t have to hold this person. I remember the baby Bjorn, one of those carriers once my baby was big enough to go on the carrier, , I was walking around with my arms up in the air.
Like I’d won something . Cause I, cause I could, right? Cause I could put my arms in the air . It, it is really hard to become mm-hmm another per another person’s source of everything. It, which is like a step up from what pregnancy was, right. Pregnancy or just renting your body. But, but motherhood feels like you sold it.
Oh yeah. You don’t belong to yourself anymore. You don’t have the same freedoms and you won’t for a very long time, if [00:34:00] ever . Yeah. Cuz I mean, I know from watching my mom that even when they leave, you still worry about them. You still are available on the phone. twenty four seven.
Yes. Yeah,
just. You’re never, you’re never quite your own ever again. And I think I struggled, I struggled with it more because I also was like, this is not how I planned to feel . This is all I’ve ever wanted. And now that it’s here, I’m finding that I don’t actually want it as much as I thought I did.
And I feel terrible about that. And I’m mad, , why, why is it happening this way? So yeah, it was a big shock. I’ve heard somewhere that the first baby , it’s like a bomb going off in the mother’s world. It just totally rearranges you, it rearranges your life. It’s not quite as big of a deal for other father.
And then the second baby, that’s when it hits the dad because now you’re. You’re each dealing with a [00:35:00] child all the time, so there’s no, one person can take the kid and the other person can do whatever anymore. It’s like one-on-one, then you have three and it’s like, forget , forget taking a break anymore sometimes.
But yeah, that’s how it felt. , I don’t even know who I am. I’m not the same person. Everything has changed. I’m just trying to , put the pieces back together of myself. Cause I don’t, it’s all just sort of exploded everywhere.
But it sounds like you figure out how to do that before you decide to have a second because you do decide to have more kids, right?
Yes.
somewhat. Yes, we did. We kind of, we kind of got things somewhat figured out. Thankfully she, she was never a really terrible sleeper, so that helped. But also with each of our kids, we’ve also chosen to have them because we felt really strongly that there was a kid for us. I, I mean, after the first time, I don’t think I would’ve had any [00:36:00] more at all, if not for that feeling, because now I know how much work it is and how much it, you know, takes a toll on you physically.
It’s a lot of mental and emotional work. It’s not all cuddles and, it’s really exhausting. Each of my children, I felt really strongly that I needed to have them, or I wouldn’t have had more than one. Probably
So talk to me a little bit about that, is it a spiritual thing or what does that mean?
For, for us, , I would say it’s a spiritual thing just because that’s sort of my background or our religious background, but for us it usually starts with me. I just feel very, very strongly , Hey, I’m waiting kind of feeling. And I’m not always happy about it, necessarily at first.
Sometimes it takes a little while for me to get on board, takes my husband even longer to get on board because he was like, holy cow, kids are so much work. This is exhausting. [00:37:00] But yeah, I don’t, it’s hard to describe. It’s just, it’s, it’s kind of a gut feeling in a way. Uhhuh, , it’s time, time for another one.
And then of course it took months. You know us to be ready. Yeah. And husband to be ready. Cuz we have to both be on board. I’m not just gonna keep having babies if he’s not also willing to have these babies. Cuz once they’re out, they’re equally his responsibility. So.
Yeah. Yeah. Good to get commitment up front for sure.
Mm-hmm. . And so skipping ahead again. What is your postpartum experience with your second one now that the birth is much closer to what you were imagining in the first instance?
It was definitely different. It was just as hard, just in different ways. So transitioning from one kid to two kids is another equally enormous transition.
It’s really difficult. I mean, you have this kid that you’ve been used to giving all of your focus to. All of your [00:38:00] attention, all of your affection goes into this one child. So there’s kind of, at first there’s some guilt, oh, they’ve been used to being the center of our universe and they’re, they’re no longer the center of the universe.
There’s this helpless little baby that needs a lot of time and attention and being held and all this stuff. And so there’s that adjustment, which once he’s, if, if your older one really loves the baby, it helps a lot. Cuz then that’s really, that’s even better. Seeing siblings just adore each other is even better than just having your one.
But yeah, there’s the whole, the sleep thing comes back. If, if you started to get more sleep, now you have a baby, you’re probably not getting much sleep anymore. And you have a two-year-old to deal with and she was a very two, two-year-old. . So it was definitely tricky to figure out [00:39:00] how to balance the needs of two children who often needed very mutually exclusive things at the same time.
So yeah, it was tricky. And when we were both home, it was a lot easier because you’re, you’re one-on-one, you can handle this, you’ve got this when it’s just you with the two kids, it’s, it’s really, it took a, it took a lot. So I think that my postpartum depression did come back, but not as severely as before.
And also I was more prepared for it this time. I was more aware of what I needed and of asking for what I needed. And so, yeah, it was, it was there for sure, but I was able to manage it much better because I was prepared this time. I was, I knew what to expect. I knew the warning signs. So yeah, I think it’s still,, my youngest is almost three and it’s [00:40:00] still kind of flares up in a way.
If I’m especially tired or especially stressed. I can feel the anger building and, and sitting there . But, the same thing, I, now I know what to do. I need, I need more sleep, I need a break. I need to talk to somebody. You know? So I kind of, kind of know how to handle it now.
So yeah, those are three big ones, right?
The loss of sleep is the quickest path to crazy, right? , I remember in those early days when you get three hours in a row and you’re like, I’m a new human three hours in a row, , good lord, I’m, you know,
I’m rich. Amazing .
Which just gives you a sense of how, how just dramatic the sleep deprivation is.
So that is a really hard thing to go back to for sure. And how much space is there between the second and the third?
I think about 21 months. Okay. I got pregnant a lot faster than we expected to the third time. Second time took about five months. Third time took no time at all. . And we were like, oh, [00:41:00] okay, well, whoops.
Yeah. Didn’t meet snack clothes together.
The that’s the flip side of the easy pregnancy, right. ,
oops. Wasn’t expecting. Well, I mean, I’m, I’m in my thirties, so I was fully expecting it to take longer each time. Yeah. Didn’t, so we’re like, what? All right. . That birth was an absolute dream. I had a midwife this time and I had him at home and I could rave about home birth with midwives all day long, it was amazing.
It was absolutely amazing. It was hard still, but it was amazing.
And so even though you had the good experience with the second one, why do you choose to have the third one at home?
I’d heard multiple relatives that had home births and just hearing really good things about midwives and how they’re much more relaxed about the whole thing than doctors send to me.
And just not being in a hospital, cuz we had to stay in the hospital for about 24 hours after my son [00:42:00] was born and we were fine, but we were just waiting for our pediatrician to come and say he was fine. Everyone could see he was fine and I was fine. , but we had to wait this whole day in a hospital and I didn’t wanna do that again.
It was hard, it was hard to be away from my oldest that long. , I wanted to get home to my first baby and I just didn’t, I didn’t wanna do that again. So we went with a midwife and it was the best. I wish we’d done it the first time. Honestly, it was amazing. It was the best birth experience.
It’s so much more relaxed. You’re in your own space. The midwifes, , they’re not strapping you to monitors, they’re checking on you just as much, but you’re not strapped to stuff. It’s just, much more relaxed. And then afterwards you just go to sleep in your own bed while they tidy up and that’s all they come to you, you know?
It’s just really nice. So, and it was the fastest birth. [00:43:00] I think from start to finish, it was four and a half hours. Oh wow.
It was really quick. That’s like a long lunch.
Yeah, it was , it started early that morning. I was like, oh, I’m having real contractions and they’re regular. And then, four hours later I’m just about ready to push and I pushed for 10 minutes and there he was
Wow. Well, and I honestly think that a huge part of that is just, I was so much more relaxed. It’s easy to get tense in a hospital and that slows things down and it makes things harder. And I was just really, really relaxed and felt very safe and confident that everything’s gonna be fine. And, and if it wasn’t fine, the midwives knew what to do and how to deal with it.
So I just let go and there he was and he was one of those amazing. One in a million babies that sleeps really well. So that was a, that was amazing. . [00:44:00] That was, that was just cheer. I mean, it’s always just cheer luck. You never know. You never know what kind of sleeper you’re gonna get.
But yeah, he, he slept really well right from the very beginning. He nursed super well and quickly and not super often either. So, so it was just like, wow, freedom. It was really nice. And I felt like transitioning from two to three was not nearly as hard as transitioning from one to two. So, except for being outnumbered
Yeah, my guess is the outnumbered bit will be harder as that, as that continues. But it sounds like the progress from the first birth to the third birth is pretty amazing. Mm-hmm. , they’re almost diametric opposites, right? The first and the third.
Yeah, and I needed that. I needed to most likely end on a good note after that first experience and how hard it was and how it kind of affects, it does affect your relationship with your child.
Not necessarily negatively, but I tend to worry [00:45:00] more and be more protective of my oldest than I am of my voice because their, lives started in much more happy, relaxed, easy ways and we were able to bond immediately and things weren’t as difficult. Whereas with my, you know, with my first, it took us a few months to kind of get into our stride with each other and figure things out.
So,
yeah. That’s amazing. So it seems like you learned a lot on this, on this trip.
Yeah, I learned a lot about how it all works and how I work and how to , seek out what I need rather than just accepting whatever is offered to me, I guess.
The self-advocacy is a super important thing to come by. And I guess what’s interesting about your story to me in part is I am also an autoimmune person.
[00:46:00] Hmm. And even though I had some self-advocacy in that space, I’m not sure I took it with me to the birthing space.
I think I was worried about the effect of my Crohn’s disease on pregnancy and birth. And so I overly trusted the doctor more than I should have. I wasn’t asking enough questions and I wasn’t.
Doing my own research enough. You can definitely take that way too far as well. But there’s nothing wrong with asking questions and if your doctor doesn’t want you to ask questions, you should find another doctor. Yeah. You know, , just finding things out and going to where you need to go to get what you need is really important.
And I wish I had known that the first time , but I learned it and ended up having a really amazing birth experience at least once. [00:47:00] So ,
that’s good. Yeah. That sounds amazing. And it is a, it is a, I feel like it’s a a story of victory for you who did not want another C-section to have these other births that didn’t involve that at all.
Mm-hmm. . . It absolutely was. I was, I was terrified, , that that was gonna be it. Cuz I, I had met a few people who had had c-sections the first time who ended up just always having C-sections. And I didn’t wanna do that. I wanted to do this on my own and just basically proved to myself that I could not, not to the point of like endangering my baby ever.
I was always clear on, you know, if it becomes dangerous, absolutely do what you need to do, but if I could do it, I wanted to do it.
So. That’s awesome. That’s a very that’s a, that’s almost a made for TV movie . Because it has such a, it has such a perfect arc. , [00:48:00]
there you go.
Maybe I should write a book. I was gonna say congratulations on that.
That’s good news. So now your kids are, are they seven, seven.
Six, four and two.
So three under six is no small feet? No,
it’s . Birth spacing is a whole nother subject.
And does this mommy section look how you thought it would look?
What do you mean by that? You had ideas about what birth would look like and what you wanted. And it sounds like you grew up with the idea that you would be a mother. Yeah. It, it’s obviously hard even in that in all the years you spent not being a mother, thinking about being a mother.
No one ever imagines the tantrums or the dirty diapers or they won’t eat the food or all that stuff. But on the whole, does this experience kind of, is it what you were hoping for?
It’s [00:49:00] different than I. Was hoping for. So I was always , oh, I’m gonna be a stay-at-home mom. That’s gonna be my career, cuz that’s what my mom did. And so I quit school in the middle of a bachelor’s degree because I was pregnant and I was like, I can only focus on one thing at a time and that thing is gonna be my child and I probably shouldn’t have, it probably would’ve been better for my mental health to have had something else as well that was just mine.
And also just exercise for parts of my brain that feel like they just turn to mush after the baby. And so while I still wanna be home and available to my children, I also want to stretch myself and, build a career for myself in ways that don’t make my family sacrifice too much. , but just realizing that I have to, I need these things in order to be the mother I want to be.
Because if I just put myself completely on hold, I get resentful, I get bored out of my mind. [00:50:00] It’s a lot more boring than I thought it would be. Yeah. It can be mind numbingly boring to be home with kids all day. And you, you find yourself scrolling through Facebook just because you’re like, somebody rescued me.
I need something . I need something interesting to look at or read or just something that’s not this. So I’m definitely not the exact kind of mother that I thought I would be. It’s definitely a lot different than I expected. I think. Some days I do really well and some days I really don’t. But I’m also learning that that’s just part of it and you do the best that you can.
And so if you’re having a day when you’re not doing well then you need to figure out what you need to be able to do better. Because, you know, I don’t lose my temper with my kids because I just can’t be bothered to control my temper. . Yeah, yeah, yeah. I lose my temper with my kids because I am not able to do better in that moment, for whatever reason.
So I have to [00:51:00] figure out what do I need? Do I need a nap? Do I need to take a break? Do I need to call my mom and Vince? So whatever it is I need to do so that I can come back and be the calm mom that they need. And also, I’ve just learned to apologize a lot, , because I can’t, I, I’m not, I can’t be perfect all the time.
I can’t be calm all the time. I, I don’t know how I’m trying to figure it out, but I don’t know how. And so I just have learned to. Take responsibility and tell them I’m sorry, and try to do better and Yeah. No, and I guess the answer is no. It does not look the way I thought it was going to at all. In some ways it’s better because your actual real kids are so much more interesting than imaginary kids.
Yeah. Also, it sounds like as hard as it is, that’s true that any job, any job you have some days are great. Some days are not so great. Some days you [00:52:00] lose your temper. Some days you can’t do it. But it sounds like you are honest and human with them, which is so much more than , , people give to a lot of jobs.
Right. That seems to me unbelievably valuable for your kids to see, people make mistakes, people get angry, and this is how you handle it when that happens. Because guess what? That’s gonna happen. I hope so. ,
that’s the hope, right? That that’s what they take from it, rather than, oh man, mom’s always angry.
I’m not always angry. Sometimes it feels that way, but I’m not . , I mean, it, it happens to them all the time too, right? They fight and they get upset and they, they just try to figure out, do you need a break? Are you hungry, ? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We try to figure out why, why is this happening and what can we do about it?
And we need to apologize when we’ve hurt somebody or yelled at them, or whatever it is. So, yeah, I don’t think, I, I think my husband has had a similar, I don’t think being a dad [00:53:00] is at all the way he thought it was gonna be either. But we’re figuring out how, how to do what We have the reality . Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Parenting for us, because it’s different for everyone, right? Just dealing with it as it comes and whatever happens, we figure it out.
That, that sounds like the messy, beautiful project of family. Right? That’s definitely messy for sharing . Yeah. That, that’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story.
I totally appreciate it.
Oh, thank you.
Episode 86 SN: Her C Section Recovery led her to Holistic Healing: Kayshaun’s Story, Part II
Today my guest experiences pain in her every day life for years after her pregnancies. And then finally, after an exploratory surgery, gets the diagnosis she’s been waiting for.
In today’s episode you’ll here how Kayshaun, a nurse turned business woman and mother of four, uses the pain and trauma from her four complicated pregnancies to help other people to find their voice and consider natural remedies to things like fibroids and endometriosis.
Fibroids
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcell.2021.633180/full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9277653/
Why does it take so long to get a diagnosis of Endometriosis
Audio Transcript
Paulette : Welcome to war stories from the womb. Today my guest experiences pain in her everyday life for years after pregnancy. And then finally, after an exploratory surgery gets a diagnosis
This is to show that shows the true experiences of getting pregnant, being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition. You can find on all kinds of media to more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person, or at least that new person from your body into the world. I’m your host Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and a mother of two girls. In today’s episode, you’ll hear how kayshaun a nurse turn a business woman was a mother of four is the pain and trauma from her four complicated pregnancies to help other people. What follows is the second part of our conversation. I also include insights about the latest thinking of preeclampsia, shared by a professor of obstetrics and gynecology. We returned to Kayshaun’s story as she’s describing the consequence of carefully investigating her fibroid situation as she’s trying to avoid a hysterectomy.
Kayshaun 1:17
In a way the tumor cancer scare was needed. I wouldn’t have found out what we found out. Oh my gosh, Paulette, he went in there. And found that I have a plate of scar tissue. My uterus is attached to my abdominal wall in the scar tissue was growing through my organs. So he said you Saved your life. He said if you were to wait and have that hysterectomy, you would have woke up a completely different person. He that doctor wouldn’t have been able to do it. You have adhesions connected to your bladder, from your uterus, to your abdominal wall to your intestines, all my other organs and stuff and I’m like, I got scar tissue. attached to my uterus in my abdominal wall. And I was like, that’s why I was never able to walk past that timeframe all this time. And in the doctors were thinking I was crazy, saying it’s just the fibroids and I’m like no, it’s something else. It’s something else. And I’m relieved to have a diagnosis and to have answers but it took 19 years to get this diagnosis.
Paulette 2:31
Okay, so endometriosis occurs when the lining of the uterus starts to grow outside the uterine wall. It can grow on ovaries or fallopian tubes or anywhere inside the abdominal cavity. Right now, the current estimates suggest that on average, it can take 10 years before receiving a proper diagnosis. That’s the current standard, not the standard that Kayshaun lived under. Why you might ask, does it take a decade to figure this out? It sounds like the most common symptom is pain that can register the pelvic area but also in other areas like lower back. It can happen during a bowel movement or during or after sex. Because it can show up in many different places and circumstances. The pain is often attributed to other diseases like irritable bowel syndrome. It’s also missed because the pain during your period is considered quote unquote normal. I’m guessing another aspect of this disease that makes it hard to diagnose definitively is that the only way to know for sure that you have endometriosis is to conduct a surgical procedure where a doctor puts a small telescope inside of the abdomen through the belly button.
So thank goodness for this doctor to figure it out. Right. We went to look right at your description. I went look for it. And are the tumors benign? Are they just fibroids are
Kayshaun 3:48
okay, no. tumors were benign. Yes, they were very good.
Paulette 3:51
Okay, good. So that’s amazing. Maybe you can clue us in in your holistic practice. What do you do for fibroids? I’m going to preface Keisha this description of her approach to fibroids by just saying that everybody is different or expectation may not work for you and then again it may but this is not medical advice. If you have fibroids, please consult your doctor or whatever health practitioner you see for advice specific to your body. fibroids are super common, affecting roughly 70% of women. They are tours in the uterus but they’re often benign and we don’t know what causes a fiber to grow. What we do know some risk factors that include age they’re more common as you age, obesity, Vitamin D deficiency, hormone irregularities and race. Numerous studies have shown that African American women are more likely than their counterparts to develop fibroids.
Kayshaun 4:41
Oh wow. It’s a whole lifestyle for fibroids. If you want to do a lot of detoxing. Do you want to drink a lot of water you want to do colonics castor oil wraps, oh cast oil wraps or packs. It’s when you take like a wool cloth and you saturate it with castor oil and you put it on your abdomen and wrap it up with saran wrap with the heating pad. Oh that is a godsend for boys drinking like raspberry tea detox tea doing detox baths, eliminating a lot of toxins from out of your body. You know what I learned about is we introduced a lot of toxins into our bodies whether fats the products that we use, what we’re eating the cleaning supplies, so I have to get really holistically clean what my whole lifestyle I have stopped chemically processing perming my hair so I went all natural because those those feed the fibroids I started using clean skincare products. That’s one of the reasons I developed my own skincare line. So I can use all natural products, the cleaning solutions that I use, they have to be cleaned and so it was a an overall of everything. And I had my doctors they were right there with me through this whole journey doing ultrasounds watching them shrink and I remember the last ultrasound that I had did they were like they are all gone. They were all calcified and I’m like I can’t believe I did. This. It was hard. It was expensive. But it took like five or maybe even seven years to do it naturally but they wanted to do surgery and I’m like no, not gonna do that.
Paulette 6:29
Yeah, hysterectomy is a major surgery and nice to avoid if you can get
Kayshaun 6:34
the surgery he was like if I was to ever choose to have a surgery, he was like it’s going to be a risky surgery. He was like we have to have every organ that has this adhesion. We would have no specialists in the operating room with us because he said this has been attached for so long we don’t know what’s gonna happen when we pull everything apart. So me the holistic pain and trauma warrior. I’m not having surgery. I’m taking care of this holistically and naturally it’s a very painful process, but I’m working with a pelvic floor Therapist and I’m using massage therapy to manually break the scar tissue.
Paulette 7:14
Wow, that sounds like a big task. But again, to avoid surgery, it seems like it would be totally worth it.
Kayshaun 7:20
It is I’m glad that I’m able to not act so fast and not be pressured by the medical community in doing this naturally because I don’t want to be like one of those other women having surgery. And it
Paulette 7:33
sounds painful, right? It’s painful for us. Yeah. So it’s,
Kayshaun 7:37
I can’t work a regular job fighting to get disability. I can’t stand for long periods of time. It’s growing through my organs when he didn’t just oh my gosh, having intercourse is extremely painful. And I thought I was crazy and losing my mind and it caused the division in my marriage because I started having sex no more because it was excruciating. And I remember one time I was telling my husband I said I feel like
Paulette 8:06
you’re in tissue. Yeah. As you
Kayshaun 8:09
penetrating, and I’m all like you have to feel that. I know you feel it. I’m not crazy. And he’s crazy, but it was like yeah, I do feel that. I was like, it’s like he’s breaking my virginity each time. No like how can you put me through this? And so when I found out about the endometriosis and as the therapist was breaking, you know, massage therapy. I’m all like, why are you going all the way down there? You know, you should be here. I mean, she was all by the labia all and I’m like I said, and he goes all the way down there. She was like, Yes, I can feel it. She was like this growing all through here. And I was like, Can this go through the vaginal wall? And she was like, yes. And I’m like, Oh my God. That’s what I was going through all these years, you know? So to just be raw and honest and open with everyone on your platform. I haven’t been sexually active in eight years. Yeah, I have a desire to be sexually active because it’s, it’s torturous. So you know, I need to continue my therapy and break this tissue down.
Paulette 9:13
I’m so grateful that they figured out what it is. So that you can stop doubting yourself and appreciate that your body’s right. Right you trust what you’re feeling? Good Lord. That’s such a long journey. That’s such a so many things that you learned along the way is there if you could pick out something that I know that this is a hard question. I got something to tell to younger Hey, Shawn, is there something you would tell her?
Kayshaun 9:39
I would tell younger KayShaun to slow down and not yourself because you know, third pregnancy. I have preeclampsia again.
Paulette 9:48
So the third pregnancy. How do you walk into that? I mean, it’s painful to walk. I guess I thought because you were having all this other pain. That was it. You were like I’m done.
Kayshaun 9:58
I waited three years though to get pregnant again. Okay. It was in I had just had my second miscarriage. I didn’t even know I was pregnant. I had found out we had a car accident. A really, really bad car accident Wisdom went out the window we flipped over. I mean, it was just really crazy. And just through the them checking us up and because I’m bleeding and everything and they find out they was like, Ma’am, did you know you were pregnant? And I’m like, No, I didn’t know and they was like you’ve lost the baby. And now we need to do a DNC. And I’m like, I’m pregnant and I lost the baby. You know, I just had a car accident. My kids went out the window. My husband almost lost his limbs. It was just I’m like, I can’t believe this. You know, so it wasn’t as devastating as the first one but
Paulette 10:51
surrounded surrounded by all the other trauma. Yes, you’re right,
Kayshaun 10:55
right. Yeah, but so I get pregnant the third time and I was ready. Actually. I wanted a girl so I was excited to be pregnant this time because I already have two boys. I have my husband. I’m the only female in the home I’m ready for girl but it was towards the end of the pregnancy. I was at school and almost passed out again. And the instructors they call the ambulance and I get to the hospital and they do the test and they let me know that there’s preeclampsia again and it was like I went to surgery right now. It’s very bad.
Paulette 11:32
So first of all, how far along are we
Kayshaun 11:35
38 weeks, so I had a scheduled C section date they just didn’t make it to it.
Paulette 11:40
And when you feel the dizziness Do you think oh shit, this is preeclampsia again, or you don’t it doesn’t feel the same.
Kayshaun 11:46
I don’t even think I thought about that because I was trying to get to my class. That’s all that I was worried about. And I was just like, hey, something’s wrong. You know what I did? well, maybe I’m tired. Maybe I just need to sit down but I barely made it into the class and up the stairs and everyone was all over me. But the blood
Paulette 12:10
work that shows you how eclampsia isn’t like liver enzymes or something like what’s telling you okay?
Kayshaun 12:17
And I was scared this time because they was just like, oh my god you gotta go in my husband got there, but we had a little babies. You know, we got a four year old two year old at this time, and there was no one around and they were gonna make me go into surgery by myself. So I’m calling my dad neighbors. I’m crying. I’m like, I can’t go into surgery by myself. And luckily we had the labor in my bed got there at the same time. And my husband was able to come in there and be with
Paulette 12:49
and so they do another emergency C section which now I feel like you’re like oh, this again.
Kayshaun 12:54
Yes, it’s another emergency C section but my bladder wouldn’t cut this time. I was only in the hospital for three days. I actually was able to walk on the first day. So it was just that scary process but it just made me think why is this happening again?
Paulette 13:13
Too experience preeclampsia once is a huge challenge. To experience it twice is hard to wrap your head around. I took this issue to Dr. jellen, the Program Director of maternal fetal medicine fellowship and associate professor of psychology and obstetrics at Johns Hopkins who provide insight about preeclampsia LSVT show other than this underlying cardiovascular issue that you we can’t measure. Are there visible risk factors that we know.
Kayshaun 13:40
So we now have a lot of risk factors we know for certain if somebody has had preeclampsia in a prior pregnancy, they’re at risk. If they have chronic hypertension, they’re at risk and then a lot of other things so carrying multiple gestations increases the risk probably because of the stress to the body is greater, but underlying diseases such as kidney disease, diabetes, autoimmune conditions, all of those things put patients are at risk as well. Then there’s risk factors that maybe are more moderate, and those include having a high body mass index or having a family history of preeclampsia being over 35 and having in vitro fertilization. Know that black race is also a risk as well as low income status.
Paulette 14:27
So race seems like too big a category to be a risk factor. So that must be a stand in for something else we don’t quite understand.
Kayshaun 14:36
So a lot of studies have really tried to approach race and really break it down by other what we call co founders. So we know that arrays can be associated with other things and can we tease it out and say, Oh, is it these other things and not just race? I think that there’s a lot of thought now that even when you remove co founders and try to control for that, there does seem to be a risk for black women. In regards to preeclampsia, and the United States Preventive Services Task Force addresses this and they see that black persons and lower income not either or, but independently, are associated with increased risk due to environmental, social and historical inequities, shaping health exposures, access to health care, and the unequal distribution of resources. That biological propensities so I definitely think some people will argue all kinds of genetic environmental interactions that could be attributed to race. But people have started really talking about this theory of racism as a risk factor.
Paulette 15:48
Yeah, well, that seems like a super important thing to tackle and a big thing to tackle.
Kayshaun 15:53
I think we’re in a world now, where it is being actively addressed in many, many areas of healthcare. And I hope that in years coming we will have better ways to actually treat it and manage it. Yeah, than we do now. Yeah, I just attended the society maternal fetal medicine conference in San Francisco last week, and one of the oral plenaries talked about treating blood pressure and lower blood pressure thresholds, outcomes, and so instead of using the usual 140, systolic over 90, diastolic they were really treating I think, at 130, systolic over diastolic to see if they could improve outcomes and it does seem like using classification systems such as that could be beneficial and definitely have seen improvements. In the management of preeclampsia as you have developed better antihypertensive algorithms for management and I do think they’re amazing drugs that are very helpful in pregnancy.
Kayshaun 16:58
But everything went well after that, and then the fourth pregnancy, so horrific, I wouldn’t be able to have children after that whole pregnancy. And this is the one with my daughter. I was sick the whole time and extremely sick. I couldn’t hold down or food or anything I just kept throwing up to the point where I had to every other day I was in the emergency room, getting fluids and so even the nausea medication Zofran it was barely working. And so and this is why I say I will take a shot and slow down because I was in nursing school at this time. My dad had just paid $25,000 for me to go to nursing school and he was actually upset that I was pregnant again, because I didn’t know I was pregnant when I joined the program. And so when I found out I’m like, I’m gonna do every thing I can I’m not wasting your money. I’m going to finish this program. I should have sat my butt down and but I didn’t my doctor, she’s like you’re in and out of the hospital. We need to put a Acorda cat in your neck. Because we’re gonna have to have a nurse come to the house and give you IV so that you’re not coming to the emergency room every other day. And I’m like, Well, I’m in the nursing program and I can’t have no part in the no CT cap. In my neck. They’re not gonna let me come. So you’re just gonna have to deal with me coming to the emergency room every other day. How old are you at this point? Oh, I’m 30 man. Okay, and so they’re like, Okay, fine, you know, so I’m steadily in and out and then oh my gosh, early third trimester. Now I’m high risk. Because my kidneys and my liver is starting. They don’t know why. Wow. And they’re like, We don’t know what’s going on with you and they was like your high risk. They couldn’t find out why it’s happening. They were like hopefully when you deliver everything will go back to normal so I’m scared the remainder of this pregnancy can you
Paulette 19:09
feel it to feel poorly? Oh, growing up.
Kayshaun 19:13
I feel weak. I feel lethargic and put I’m in nursing school. You know trying to maintain on the honor roll and everything three kids. This was the most stressful ever in my life. But the doctors all they can say was we hope that you get better. Once you deliver it to the end of that to my scheduled C section date. It’s everything is smooth. And it was like and that’s when they said at this time too because all of this was happening. They suggested that I don’t have any more kids after this. Because I was technically waiting. I wanted five kids. That was my goal. And I knew if they didn’t see that film like because they say if you could see through the uterus, they tell you you can’t have kids anymore because it wouldn’t be safe. So I knew I could potentially have one more but they was like what your kidneys and your liver doing this is not safe. It was like you gotta get your tunes tied after this. So I got them tied, put and burned after that. But I didn’t slow down because I was in this time in nursing school. I’m in clinicals so I’m at the end. I can’t miss anything. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I wish I could go back and tell Keisha to sit her butt down and rest and wait to the next semester to finish because my crazy but I told the doctor I got a good report with the doctor letting them know what’s going on. And I’m like I gotta go back to school. So they I had them double staple me. It the little white strips that they put on those. They put them teach double back, wrap me up and seven days later, I was back in clinicals Wow. And it was so hard but I come I come from a real hard life Wow. I’m used to just pushing myself or I want to get to the next level or succeed or I’m going to be continuing the struggle my C section scar ripped open three times.
Paulette 21:18
What does it mean that it came
Kayshaun 21:21
apart? And you know what I did? I my doctor’s office was resolved Hey, I just busted open go back to school
Paulette 21:45
that seems unbelievably painful.
Kayshaun 21:51
But I was under a lot of pressure, you know, primary breadwinner for the family on ice assistance. I got kids that just can’t call his money. He’s not trying to me so I felt like I have to force myself to do this because I’m thinking oh, life is gonna be so much better and all of this but I was tearing down my body in the process not knowing I’m thinking I’m this strong, incredible woman, but I’m paying for it later.
Paulette 22:23
Well, well, it’s a big theory. You are the strong, incredible woman but it’s not for free. Right it’s not for France. Yes. So when your daughter is born, kidneys and liver go back to normal.
Kayshaun 22:37
And then eventually Yes, I was done by squirting breast and as much as all but I heal but I’ll still remain happy bye walked for too long or anything like that, even though they were just like, oh, let’s try but like but I heal. I was happy to not have preeclampsia again. She’s healthy. I think this was the shortest amount of time I stayed in the hospital which was only in three days which I was kind of shocked. I’m all like, I was high risk the whole time.
Paulette 23:10
I was gonna guess. 10 minutes based on location on schedule, right?
Kayshaun 23:16
Yes. Wow.
Paulette 23:17
I mean, that’s amazing. And so how old are the kids now?
Kayshaun 23:21
Now? 21 1915 and 30. Wow.
Paulette 23:28
You’re still in high school? Yes. Yeah. You look amazingly calm and well rested for that. For everything that happened and for kids in this period.
Kayshaun 23:40
I tried really hard, you know, going through all of these different challenges. It has taught me to look more into myself to more self advocacy, because it finding out to have stage three individuals is 19 years later, it could have been found a lot sooner if I was more in tune myself. We tend to let others tell us how we feel like oh, ignore the pain or is not as bad or pray to God and all this stuff. And it’s like if I would have just told those people to shut up and listen to me. It takes what I’m going through seriously. I wouldn’t have suffered as long but that’s part of my mission now to speak on a sea of those and chronic pain or chronic health issues to stop letting others tell you what you feel. I did a post the other day that is you can’t see or feel or understand my pain doesn’t mean that it’s not real.
Paulette 24:40
I totally agree with you. I’m hoping that with more research into women’s health conditions, endometriosis, fibroids, menopause, for example, that it will be less of an uphill climb for our kids and it has been for many women in our generation. So So is that your work? Now? Is that what you’re doing now
Kayshaun 24:55
right now. So I have the skincare line. And I do a lot of educate. I don’t work in the medical field anymore, but I’m so used to educating others and so I’ve made remarketing a lot of people follow my journey I’ve been speaking about it a lot more so I am transitioning to add and to help others with their fibroids. A lot of people want to follow my journey with handling the endometriosis because I’m doing it holistically so they want to follow me on this journey. So I’m shifting over to share that more and to help others and I left the medical field. I kind of like thought like what am I going to do? I spent 20 years in medical field now. I have to really find myself but I’ve been able to see all the trauma all the pain that I have been through learning how to deal with it holistically is because now I can help others. I’ve had people come as I would share, they’d be like, Oh my God. I thought I was the only one biller with myofascial pain syndrome and you’ve been helping me and then I felt guilty like oh my god, I’ve been keeping all this knowledge into myself and just those close to me. So now I have that that urge. It’s my purpose to help others with their pain holistically in naturally and I fell I have both sides of the world. I got the medical knowledge and the holistic knowledge because of my personal experiences. So I feel good to know all of this trauma all of this pain wasn’t for nothing because as I’m getting better now I can help others get better as well. Do you have a website or somewhere people can find you? Yes, I do have a website it is WWW dot renew you body better.com And that is directly to the website to purchase any type of face or bodies in care products and I think I can kind of say I kind of knew I would end up to this because as I was formulating products for the skin, I was still formulating products to help with the issues like my my bath salts is a detox bath salts to help not only with skin but just overall general detoxing for the body. So I’m excited for expanding into this new journey. So just on your platform, and speaking I’ve never done this before. I’ve never spoke about this story is shared on this intimate level before so I’m so grateful you know for you and your platform that I’m able to share my story and help others.
Paulette 27:29
I totally appreciate it and we’ll put a link to your website in the show notes so people can find it. Yes thank you. Thanks so much to Keisha for sharing all the facets of her medical journey through pregnancy and birth. I also appreciate her candid discussion of fibroids and endometriosis. A huge fraction of women develop fibroids at some point in their lives. And their statistics for endometriosis are estimated to be one in 10 but we don’t hear too much about it. We need to talk openly about it so that women feel confident taking these issues and questions about pelvic pain to an expert to get help rather than muscle through which too many women do. Thanks also to Dr. jellen for her insights about preeclampsia. I find it totally inspiring to hear about all the work that’s being done now to figure out exactly why this happens. And hopefully, someday in the not too distant future, a way to dramatically improve outcomes for women and babies. Thank you for listening. If you liked the show, SUBSCRIBE And leave us a review we’ll be back next week with another inspiring story
Episode 85SN: Her C Section Recovery Led her to Holistic Healing: Kayshaun’s story, Part I
In this episode, you’ll hear how my guest rejected her doctor’s insistance on a hysterectomy and saved her own life. This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition you can find on all kinds of media, to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and release that new person from your body into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls.
Today you’ll hear how my guest learns to trust her body and advocate for herself–a critical skill in any medical procedure, maybe even more critical in childbirth; she had four births and each was visited by something unexpected that required her to develop these skills. In this episode I also include the insights of an associate professor of gynecology and obstetrics from Johns Hopkins. What follows is the first part of our conversation.
To find Kayshaun and her skin care products, click here
Odds of Having a Miscarriage with an Amniocentesis
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/amniocentesis/about/pac-20392914#:~:text=Miscarriage
Rate of Uterine Rupture with a VBAC
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/labor-and-delivery/in-depth/vbac/art-20044869
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/21687-vaginal-birth-after-cesarean-vbac
Injury during C section
Episode 84SN: Managing the Feelings of an Unexpected Pregnancy: Kekua’s Story, Part II
In this episode, you’ll hear what Kekua did when her experience really shoved her expectations for her second birth off a cliff.
Today you’ll hear how Kekua manages the many surprises that visit the birth of her second child. The number of things that go a bit sideways almost makes her story sound like a sitcom script, but the way she sticks the landing, in the end is what’s truly impressive. We’ll pick up our conversation where Kekua is talking about the slow return of her body, a body she recognizes after the birth of her first child.
Longterm effects of Breastfeeding
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s40168-015-0104-7
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8567139/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/01/210114111912.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4077166/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0277953617306202
Crash C section
https://www.webmd.com/baby/emergency-c-section
Geographic distribution of maternal health outcomes
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/12/1128335563/maternity-care-deserts-march-of-dimes-report
Audio Transcript
Paulette: Hi, Welcome to War Stories from the Womb: In this episode, you’ll hear what Kekua did when her experience really shoved her expectations for her second birth off a cliff……This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition you can find on all kinds of media, to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and release that new person from your body into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls.
Today you’ll hear how Kekua manages the many surprises that visit the birth of her second child. The number of things that go a bit sideways almost makes her story sound like a sitcom script, but the way she sticks the landing, in the end is what’s truly impressive. We’ll pick up our conversation where Kekua is talking about the slow return of her body, a body she recognizes after the birth of her first child.
Kekua 0:00
I was definitely none of this. I walked out of the hospital looking great kind of thing. And I stayed. I still look pregnant. She was born December 12. Of course our Christmas pictures December 25. I still look like I was it’s yeah.
Paulette kamenecka 0:19
I remember being shocked that after the birth I still had the belly. I was like, What? What else is in there? go look.
Kekua 0:27
I use Orion huge it was.
Paulette kamenecka 0:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And did you guys breastfeed or anything? I was sleeping. I was all that.
Kekua 0:35
I did. You know, the La Leche League and lactation consultants come in and ask you if that’s what you want to do. So of course I did. I wanted to do whatever, you know, was the naturalistic most healthy, not to mention
Paulette kamenecka 0:51
the first
Kekua 0:57
engaged learning process, both of you got that she was able to get it, you know, we found our little rhythm. And then after that, it was like, it was like old hat. It was such it’s almost indescribable. Like the, the closeness and the bond that you get to create with your child when you’re a nursing mother is unique. I can’t there’s really nothing that I can compare that to, like when you look down on your baby’s looking right at you and they’re so close. And you’re really skin to skin. And I know a lot of mothers are scared of it because it can be like a strange experience. Once you get over that initial challenge. It’s such a beautiful experience. That was a wonderful wish I had but I didn’t know I didn’t know that I could just not give her formula. So when she was getting older, I got worried that she wasn’t getting enough. Yeah. And so I would supplement with formula. And of course, if you replace some of the meals, that means there’s less physical demand. So then your body produces less so that’s kind of like a cycle. So she ended up weaned off by the time she hit like 11 months, so she didn’t get a full year. I do regret that. I wish I had had her longer. I nursed my son for about a year and a half. His immune system is solid and hers is not so much and there are times when I have you know mother guilt, right? If it goes off in parts of your life, there are times when I’m like, That’s my fault. You get sick because of me. Although not but you know, Mother guilt tells you that everything is
Paulette kamenecka 2:53
your fault. I feel like the good news and the bad news is you feel responsible for everything but you don’t really have control over everything. Once you find the point where those two intersect, it’s a much happier medium because then you don’t feel responsible for her coming home sick in 10th grade. Right? It is more palpable. But so what’s the age difference between the kids?
Kekua 3:15
Almost exactly two years. They’re two years and 13 days apart? Yes, he she so she’s been born on December 12. He was actually born on his due date of Christmas. Oh, wow. Oh
Paulette kamenecka 3:29
my god. Wow. What a holiday season at your house. Good Lord. So you weren’t happy to walk into the first one. Were you were happier for the second one.
Kekua 3:37
I wanted the second one. I loved the her mother’s so much that I wanted. I did not love pregnancy. But like I said from the second she came out. I wanted to repeat that and I wanted wanted a girl because she was so perfect. And just joy is all of those things that I wanted to do that exact I didn’t get. I didn’t get her.
Paulette kamenecka 4:04
We rarely do we really roll the dice you can’t count. So did you get pregnant easily again, the second time?
Kekua 4:12
I think so. I think it was fairly easily when I had made the decision. I I said okay, we’re doing this, like we’re doing this. And he was like okay, and I think he underestimated how much of doing this was going to come along with that because like I meant it when I said I want another baby. Yeah. And I would say it didn’t take but another month maybe it was two months. It was long enough that he started to be like please, please can we stop but you know, we made a deal. We made a deal. This is what we’re doing.
Paulette kamenecka 4:50
That’s the thing trying makes it hard. Right? Once you’re trying that it’s harder in part because you’re watching it so closely and you’re just just harder. So was the second pregnancy easier because you know what to expect or what was that like?
Kekua 5:04
Yes and no so like the first pregnancy, medically speaking, did not really have too many problems. I was not supposed to do as much as I did. But you know, there wasn’t really no choice. Things had to be done and to work and things like that with the second one. It was emotionally much easier. Obviously because they wanted this to happen. I was not supposed to be very active because I had a bit of an amniotic fluid leak. So it wasn’t enough for them to be very, very concerned. But it was pretty consistent. There was I guess a pinhole leak Yeah, so I wasn’t supposed to be up and about it wasn’t supposed to be super active. But again, then I already had a child. You know, the house has to get cleaned. I very, very insistent on everyday had to be vacuumed because we did have dogs. Yeah. My babies to be able to be honest, four dishes of course have to get done you know, have to cook and do all those things. It did not get much assistance from my husband. So you know she should have to get done.
Paulette kamenecka 6:11
So were they telling you to to be active because there was a hope that the the bag of waters would seal itself or they just thought it would leak less if you did
Kekua 6:20
less stuff. So for the amount that it was It wasn’t dangerous, but they were concerned that if I was too active, it would become a larger leak or you know create a rupture or something that then it would require bed rest or hospitalization or something.
Paulette kamenecka 6:36
So that was the only thing you were it sounds like you were watching for your pregnancy and then do you have a different vision of the birth of a second one other than less than 40 hours?
Kekua 6:45
Yes, I knew that I was going to wait until because I knew what it felt like when she was ready. To come out. I remember Surprisingly even though I had an epidural i from the inside I was I okay now now she’s coming down. So I knew that I was going to wait as long as possible because I did not want to lay in the bed. Pretty horrors again. And this time I was having all the false Labor’s the Braxton Hicks and stuff. So I was standing at the table wrapping Christmas presents because it’s Christmas Eve, and I’m having all the Braxton Hicks and I’m like oh man. It’s really it’s close. He’s going to be here pretty soon. But I wrapped up all the presidents and I put him under the tree. And I went to bed. So this was probably along the lines of You know, one or two in the morning because you put the baby to bed first right and then we’ll go find all the things that you’ve been through the house and all of that. So I went and I wrapped them up, put them under the tree went to bed and I woke up around around five something 530 And I woke up because it had gotten enough that I was kind of like oh, man, this false labor. And then I laid there for a little while long and I was like, oh, it’s not false.
Paulette kamenecka 8:11
Because you noticed they were regular or what was the what was
Kekua 8:15
different? It felt not just stronger, but it felt different. And I realized I was like, oh this is not the same that I’ve been having for the last couple weeks. This is actual This is really over and I could feel pressure on my cervix. So not like giving birth pressure but I could feel that as you know everything contracts and pushes down onto the cervix. I can feel that but it was still very early in the morning so my daughter was in bed with myself and my husband so I woke him up. And I said, I’m gonna have mom drive me to the hospital when she wakes up. Then you guys come he’s like, Well, just from now like don’t wake her up. I’m like for what Leah was 40 hours last night. Just just come she’s gonna wake up in a couple hours. So we’re just gonna go ahead and then you guys come in when she gets up. So I went with my mom without their admit me and they do their little pre check. And they’re all you know, is dad involved, you know, all those normal questions and I was like, yeah, he’s you know, baby still sleeping. So they’ll be here when she wakes up. And they said, Well, you know if he wants to be here, he should probably come right now. Wow. Really? So I call him I’m like, Hey, he’s like I was already getting ready. I wasn’t gonna listen to you. So they’re trying to monitor right? So they put the belly band off to kind of monitor contractions. And they don’t like the way his heart rate seems to lessen with each contraction. So they decide they want to you know, after a little while of this they decide they want to put the so there’s a secondary kind of monitor but it’s more invasive where they’ll attach it to the skull and then just kind of focus in they want to monitor him more tightly than what they’re seeing on the van because they don’t like what they’re seeing on the van. So when they broke the water that was it is go time. Oh wow. Water to put that on his. And the moment they broke the water. He was like, Oh, all right. And he wanted to come out. So the nurse had to like hold him in. And because she was doing that. She felt that what was happening was his cord was wrapped around the top of his head, not around his neck, but it went over his head. So each time there was a contraction cord against his skull was being compressed and that was why his heart rate would drop a little bit because the oxygen from the cord would get cut off a little bit. So they couldn’t let him come out because if he comes out with squirt first and that that kind of tangled man who gets stuck somewhere in the birth now most likely that means he’s entangled in it somehow. So they’re holding him in. Literally,
Paulette kamenecka 11:10
this this seems comfortable. Is this how are you?
Kekua 11:14
It was it was yeah, it was something because they had just given me the epidural. Now it’s like look, I don’t like having medication. Who would I remember last time and I would like to collectively have that before it gets bad and it’s hard to give it to me because I don’t want to have any problems with my spine. So they just given like it hadn’t taken effect. Literally this is like moments later. And because she’s holding him in he turned out to be a very tactile sensitive child, because she’s holding him and he does not like that. So he started squirming around so he spins around. And then he is breech. And my God. Oh shit. Well, he can’t come out like this and he’s wrapped up in his cord. So she’s literally holding him in there and the doctor says things are gonna have to really quickly right now.
Paulette kamenecka 12:03
waterworks
Kekua 12:04
because I’m like,
Paulette kamenecka 12:05
oh my god,
Kekua 12:06
this is this is terrible. Something’s going wrong. And they they will move over to the operating room. So this is the crash C section. I didn’t know there was anything called the crash section. And so like I’m terrified the panic because I think I’m going to die and now my baby has been long
Paulette kamenecka 12:25
wait, wait so let’s go slow here. Why does this make you think you’re gonna die as someone miscommunicated to you or have you thought about this
Kekua 12:33
is just my own internal fear like something is going very wrong. Okay. It’s more important for them to move than it is for them to explain to me what’s going on.
Paulette kamenecka 12:43
Okay, yeah, the rapidity is unnerving. I
Kekua 12:46
agree. Yeah. So, so they will be over because I had had the epidural. They didn’t give me any and they also did not have much time to wait so they didn’t give me any anesthesia.
Paulette kamenecka 12:57
Is your mom like holding your hand while you’re flying through the corridor? No,
Kekua 13:01
- I cannot remember. Where my mom is at this point of I know she’s she’s somewhere nearby. And I know I remember that. I said things to her but I can’t remember seeing her or I can’t remember what I said.
Paulette kamenecka 13:17
Okay, I’m concerned that cuckoo year is alone in her time of need. This is why I’m
Kekua 13:22
focused on she was she was there about I remember as I went out the door because she couldn’t come in. Yeah, as I went out the door she said I love you. I remember that. Scared me even more. Yes.
Paulette kamenecka 13:37
I’ll never forget you. Thanks.
Kekua 13:39
Yes, that’s what it felt like. Yeah. So so they will be in there and because I didn’t have any other kind of anesthesia. I felt all of it because it happens so very quickly, that it was before the epidural could take effect in my system. Like, like so rapid, everything from the time that they gave me the epidural to the time that they put on his birth certificate was literally like, eight minutes.
Paulette kamenecka 14:09
Oh my god. Yeah. So does that mean you can feel the scalpel? That’s painful. No.
Kekua 14:17
I yeah, I felt I felt I could feel the that you know, like it’s a suturing suturing soldering. Right so that you don’t need all of that.
Paulette kamenecka 14:30
That sounds unbelievably painful.
Kekua 14:33
It was painful, but it was for some reason in the moment, I was able to take my mind away from this because I was running through so many other things. I could feel that it hurt it hurt but I was so terrified of bigger things that the pain did not matter a whole lot.
Paulette kamenecka 14:59
At the moment. Maybe your adrenaline of panic was dampening the effect. I
Kekua 15:07
tend to agree with you. Yeah.
Paulette kamenecka 15:11
So they they take them out and are you communicating? I can feel this or what’s going
Kekua 15:15
on for now. I’m not communicating at all. I’m entirely in my head. I want to say within moments of them, pulling him out, which is the most disgusting feeling I have ever had. It’s weird. Him coming out but then rooting around to get a hold of him. Because you feel all that pressure in your abdominal cavity right so your your guts literally feel like they’re beasts third that was that was the most there was a brief moment where I thought that was gonna make me throw up because
Paulette kamenecka 15:47
is it so I had two C sections and it feels like you’re like a roller coaster. Right like all your all your internal organs are moving around in a way that doesn’t seem right.
Kekua 15:59
Which is funny because they’re not moving at all. But the pressure that you’re feeling really feel like everything is beats. Yep, yep, yep. So they pull him out. And I think at this so around the time that they pull him out, the epidural is starting to take effect. In fact, I think it was probably moments before that because I don’t remember feeling. So like when they put in for c section right? Horizontally, but when they get to the layer of muscle we don’t cut a separate a long villain Niantic nigra. There is I don’t remember feeling that part. So it probably was moments before they pulled him out actually with the epidural starting to take effect. But a few moments after they had full came out, which I did not realize and most people don’t realize they actually pull your uterus help kind of wash it and push it back in. And like make sure that the placenta has detached all the way and stuff. And at the moment that my uterus is out on my belly is when they brought my then husband in. He’s expecting you know, he’s gonna go into the labor room and I’m gonna be halfway through pushing and he’s gonna be like, No, he walked in and, you know, some of my guts are out on my belly in the last birth. He just kind of stands there with his mouth open, but he doesn’t know what to do. So yes, you walked in and I’m looking at him and he’s making that face again. And then he stands there for a moment or two. While they’re cleaning. He hasn’t seen my son yet because he’s off to the side. We went down. So he’s just standing there. He doesn’t. She said he didn’t know if I was dying. Because that’s you know, scary. Is he talking for sure the normal to them because that’s just how it works. But I wasn’t ready for that. So that maybe overdue. So, for me to see, by that point exhaustion had started to take effect and maybe they had given me other things that I was too exhausted to realize, but I could see him I saw that he was healthy. He was you know, normal color and all that stuff. And I just checked out at that moment. Like at that moment I was done. I remember them we need to call the recovery. Room. And all I wanted to know was where my daughter was. They hadn’t seen her so they held her up. Now brought on another wave of tears because that was like ruining Christmas. Morning and you know all of these things and I was like before baby girl. And they were like, here’s the baby you know, here’s baby don’t freak out. I saw him and I checked out again and I feel like I was not feel like I feel like because I was my ex husband told me afterwards I was mostly unconscious for at least a whole day after that just asleep kind of recovering from you know, the medical and emotional trauma of all of that. He was like it was great. I watched TV the whole time and there was football in the room you didn’t even know or care.
Paulette kamenecka 19:05
I can’t imagine you’ve had a day. That’s been a day for sure. Now when they whipped you into surgery, do they have enough time to put up the curtain or you got to see all the surgical stuff.
Kekua 19:15
There was a curtain I had wanted to watch. But generally speaking they don’t allow that because it makes people even more nauseated. I remember thinking it to myself, but I did not ask can I see? I think I was the you know, in hindsight, I was probably in a little bit of shock. Because everything was functioning on the inside, but not necessarily.
Paulette kamenecka 19:37
Yeah. Yeah. Holy crap, man. That’s a that was a whirlwind of birth. Yeah, so do they keep you for like a couple of days in the hospital are
Kekua 19:50
aged. I want to say it was three, three days. Regular birth, it’s like 36 hours, at least at that time. And then I stayed there because it was considered major surgery. You know, they come in and they massage to feel like if your uterus is going back to normal size, and if you are able to get baby to latch on and then also because it was major surgery, they can’t release you until you have passed gas. Which was I was like What do you mean? Because when your cavity is open and air can get inside, they’re concerned that there’s air trapped inside of your body.
Paulette kamenecka 20:30
I only vaguely remember that was through some kind of bathroom task I had to complete and I was like, Oh honey, that’s never happening again. I’m not I’m not in that market anymore. I’m not
Kekua 20:42
I did not want to give birth ever again after that. Oh my gosh, I remember having the the little Peasy out of the bottle. Yeah daughter because there had been a little bit of tear it wasn’t enough that I could feel it. It wasn’t like you know devastating of just a little bit. And so I was very relieved that I did not have to also go through that after major surgery with my son. Yeah, because there’s obviously nobody came out down there. And because they had washed the uterus there was very little so one thing that I absolutely did not know even after reading my what to expect when I’m expecting was that you were going to have you know, when you give vaginal birth. Give a period for about a month after that. Yeah, I did not know that after a C section because they wash your uterus out and basically clean off the lining. There’s not so much like there was I still had a little bit but it was not a whole month of a period afterwards. So that was nice. Yeah, yeah,
Paulette kamenecka 21:45
yeah. Did you feel like you figured out how to move around and all that with the giant.
Kekua 21:50
I was because my muscles were not super strong. Like I certainly did not get back to a bikini body after my daughter. I had plenty of weight and plenty of extra skin to which you know those stitches did not get pulled on picked my daughter up. I wasn’t supposed to but what sitting down, I would you know, because that’s upper body. I put her on my lap and for the most part, I was able to function pretty normally pretty quickly. So the turnout was I would say as optimal as could be hoped for if you had planned it in advance. We just
Paulette kamenecka 22:27
plan it. Yeah, I mean, obviously such a great outcome mom’s okay babies, okay. But good lord, that is so unexpected and so shocking, really. Right. It makes sense that you’re in shock and shocking even here, so I can’t even imagine what it was like to go through. Now looking back at that. Would you have any advice for your younger self like is there anything you would have wished you had known going in? I wish that I had
Kekua 22:53
been a little more active in my first pregnancy. I don’t know if I could have because of the nausea like I I understand now, which I did not understand them. But if you move a little bit more of your body adapts to things better when you’re moving than it does when you’re still but the reason that I was not moving was because I felt so ill. So I would like to think that if I could have moved around a little bit more, it would have been a little bit more of a comfortable pregnancy. My body was so sensitive like even laying in the bed. The bed felt so hard on my body when I was pregnant the first time and had the same bed in the second pregnancy and didn’t feel that so you know the hormonal changes are not the same in every single pregnancy. Yeah, in my second one. I don’t think so. When I was pregnant, I had this, you know, vision of I’m a bit of a hippie. I really wanted to have a home birth. Yeah, I wanted it to be as you know, natural and unpleasant as it could be. And I’m really glad that I did not go through with that because that would not have worked out for the for the deliveries that I had. That would not have worked out. Well for us.
Paulette kamenecka 24:07
What changed you from the home birth to a hospital birth.
Kekua 24:11
They didn’t offer it. It wasn’t covered in my insurance. Okay. So hospital was the only option that we had. Yeah. And that felt safe enough because like I said, my auntie was a labor and delivery nurse. So I knew that it was going to be any kind of like, number you know, people care about me. It was a horrible thing to say that you know, there has to be nepotism. You’ll see
Paulette kamenecka 24:42
you and the numbers don’t lie. It’s a it’s an unfortunate thing to say. But here we are staring at you know, higher maternal mortality rate than any other industry. And although there is like a year there was killed in pregnancy, and some giant fraction of those are preventable. So you’re right, like women just aren’t taken care of well enough
Kekua 25:08
after pregnancy. I think in the entirety of the medical industry, that’s probably yes. Right. But yeah, I would love to have had you know, like a happy to be little homebirth waterbirth whatever. And, you know, maybe that was the universe protecting me because it knew what was in store and that would especially with my second child that could have been disastrous.
Paulette kamenecka 25:30
Totally, totally. That is it. That is almost scary to think about only because of the way it turned out right? Because you went to the hospitals featured any sign you imagine 40 hours was really more like two. Yeah, right. So like, nothing kind of went according to your expectation and I feel like based on your daughter, your bar was kind of low. I feel like if you had jibber for less than 40 hours you have thought that anything less victory is mine. Right? So it just it was so off the chart and does does anything about his birth match your son when he was out walking around?
Kekua 26:03
He stayed being tactile sensitive. He did not like being touched. He did not like having his temperature taken. He’s still a little bit like he just he feels you know his sense of touch when he was very small. His comfort item was to like Kleenex is have like the layer of I guess lotion or whatever right to make them soft. His comfort item when he was very small with he would appeal to Kleenex as a part and then he would rub that that was his you know, some kids have a blankies Yeah, that was that was what he liked. He would like to touch that and he stay being sensitive to the touch Middle School. He asked me to stop touching his face because I’m a lifter, so I get calluses on my arms. And he’s like, Oh, it’s so scratchy. Please start touching. He doesn’t like it if I rub his skin you know if I hold his hand I can. I can give a little squeeze, but I can’t rub his.
Paulette kamenecka 27:06
That’s totally interesting. I like it when there’s some aspect of continuity in some of the characteristics of kids that you can see. My second one was a scheduled C section and she came three weeks early. And she is very much on her own time. That’s true to this day.
Kekua 27:22
Oh my gosh, you know, when you phrase it like that, I just thought she got it from me but my daughter is like we are always waiting for her. She is very much when she’s ready then she’s
Paulette kamenecka 27:35
Yeah, yeah. From the very start, right. That’s what she was trying to tell you. This is how it’s gonna be. But we don’t necessarily we don’t always know what information to take from the gym or our children’s shoes to the degree that they can choose it. Well, thanks so much for sharing your amazing story. It is a story of total victory in the end right?
Kekua 27:53
It feels like it somehow I managed to pull it around and raise a couple of wonderful babies and when things are really easy, and then they get hard. It’s kind of it’s way more difficult but when they start out rough, it’s a little it’s a lot easier to deal with all of the other things that come especially when you can just be like you know, you’re alive right now. And I appreciate that and that could have that could have very much not that the case.
Paulette kamenecka 28:18
I totally agree you I appreciate the 3am yelling from the boy who required a crash C section right? You’re like oh, look at that. He’s a lot of singing. Yeah. Yeah, that’s awesome. Man. That’s a useful perspective.
Kekua 28:32
It really is. It definitely informed my style of motherhood, to just be really, really happy that I have them. Yeah. I very much am aware how close both of them could have come to not to be here.
Paulette kamenecka 28:49
Yeah, yeah, that’s totally true. Well, it’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story.
Kekua 28:54
Thank you for having me. I love that you you have this because this is such a beautiful thing to share the truth to women because we, you know, we’re so conditioned to not acknowledge our difficulties and our pains and then when we’re so unprepared for them when they come. But I want to remind people that it is not the vast majority, but it is a possibility like that things won’t go the way that you dream. Not to not to panic and think that you’re dying.
Paulette kamenecka 29:23
Just because well, they’re also but part of the problem is like that dream is based off some false story. Right? The truth of the matter is being pregnant and having a kid is an unbelievably demanding enterprise for everyone no matter what. Right? So. So that doesn’t come with rainbows. And and ice cream and butterflies, right that there are parts of it that are like that, but not all of it and the birth lasts for you know 40 hours and the long in the long stretch of it and then you get to have them for many many years if you’re lucky. Right. So yeah, it’s it’s really hard and you know, things are hard to predict. but it’s a blink of an eye.
Episode 83SN: Managing the Feelings of an Unexpected Pregnancy: Kekua’s story, Part I
This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant, being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the rainbows and roses depictions you can find on social media, and other media more broadly, to a more realistic one (which might include rainbows and rocks). It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls who had far too many surprises on my path to motherhood.
Today’s topic is one that doesn’t see much daylight, to the detriment of everyone who has kids: the struggle to manage an unwanted pregnancy. There are any number of ways to respond to an unexpected pregnancy, and in today’s show, you’ll hear about an uncomfortable but very real response; one that I’m guessing is not uncommon, but is a perspective we rarely hear because the only culturally acceptable response is Joy; you have to be joyous. But that expectation is wildly unrealistic. Having a child is a life changing event, and on the cusp of such an event, any number of reactions can occur. In part one of my conversation, listen to how my guest managed these uncomfortable feelings.
To find Kekua and her work, click here
Residual effects of Birth Control
https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-post-birth-control-syndrome-5206977
https://www.healthline.com/health/post-birth-control-syndrome#takeaway
Timing of Dropping Birth Control to Get Pregnant
https://www.webmd.com/baby/get-pregnant-after-birth-control
RU 486
Pitocin versus Oxytocin
https://www.verywellfamily.com/ways-pitocin-is-different-than-oxytocin-2758958
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6209192/
Pain and Induced Labor
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4982443/
Audio Transcript
Paulette: Hi Welcome to War Stories from the Womb. This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant, being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the rainbows and roses depictions you can find on social media, and other media more broadly, to a more realistic one (which might include rainbows and rocks). It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls who had far too many surprises on my path to motherhood.
Today’s topic is one that doesn’t see much daylight, to the detriment of everyone who has kids: the struggle to manage an unwanted pregnancy. There are any number of ways to respond to an unexpected pregnancy, and in today’s show, you’ll hear about an uncomfortable but very real response; one that I’m guessing is not uncommon, but is a perspective we rarely hear because the only culturally acceptable response is Joy; you have to be joyous. But that expectation is wildly unrealistic. Having a child is a life changing event, and on the cusp of such an event, any number of reactions can occur. In part one of my conversation, listen to how my guest managed these uncomfortable feelings.
P:
Hi thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?
Keuka: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. My name is Keuka. I’m from the main island in Hawaii, which is called awful with the one with Waikiki and I’m a mom of 20 years to my birth children this year they they just turned 20 and 18.
P: Wow. So let’s go back to the four kids. Did you grow up with siblings?
K: I actually on my father’s side my biological father had a total of seven, including me, but we just discovered a couple of months ago, someone reached out who is apparently his birth child that had been adopted at birth. So he’s got a total of eight. And my mother who actually actually raised me who I lived with all my life has one other child so I have a younger brother, who is the sibling that I grew up with.
P: So did you have much contact with the other kids that you didn’t grow up with? Other than
K: not really, because my the, the man I grew up with was in the army, so did not spend most of my childhood or young adulthood here, so I knew them. We would visit them of course when we came back home in between duty stations and things like that, but I did not get to grow up with them in the way that people would typically, you know, grew up with their siblings.
P: Growing up with your brother did that make you think I want a family to or did they have?
K: No, I did not want children at the time that I got married. And at the time that I found out I was pregnant I was it was not an it was not a joyous moment no.
P: So it sounds like it was easy to get pregnant regrettably.
K: It it was unexpected. My then he was my husband. We had been together for let’s say, two years, maybe just under two years. I had not been on birth control because birth control sent me on a wild ride of manic depressive hormonal manipulation. So I had come off with that for probably about a whole year before I got pregnant. So I just thought we couldn’t get pregnant. I didn’t understand at the time that those you know birth hormonal birth control can have several years worth of effect, so it probably just kind of had a residual contraceptive effect in my system.
P: So this is a good question about long term effects of birth control here meaning oral contraceptives. I’ve read before about how birth control can dampen your risk for ovarian and endometrial cancer. And those benefits linger long after you stop taking birth control, but I wasn’t aware of negative long term effects. Apparently this is a bit of a gray area. A contested name for these effects is post birth control syndrome. And it’s the purview of naturopaths in part because the medical community doesn’t view the effects of pill removal as symptoms. They think it’s the body’s adjustment. Makes sense that your body would react both to the initiation of synthetic hormones, which alters your body’s own production of hormones, and the withdrawal of these hormones. It can lead to things like irregular periods or no period for varying lengths of time after the pills stopped. In general this like many topics in women’s health is under studied.
K: So I did not expect to get pregnant after that amount of time. I just thought it wouldn’t happen and I was wrong.
P: Wow. Well that’s that is a shocking into that hormone. All right. I also didn’t know that once you stopped birth control. I mean, I guess I thought for like two or three months, maybe it would, it would have some kind of effect on your system, but I would never have thought it would last as long as yours did.
K: Oh, yeah, I’ve I’ve since learned that it can actually because it is you know synthetic hormones. That it can affect your own hormone production for up to several years. So you’re on, you know, birth control pills. And you you know that at some point you want to have children, they actually encourage you to get off of those pills. And this may have changed now but between three to five years before you know you want to have children and change to a non hormonal form.
P: That’s totally interesting. I didn’t know that. I’m not sure what advice was given back in the day, but now according to webmd, you may be able to get pregnant within one to three months of stopping oral contraception in fact, on the list of side effects of coming off the pill, the first one listed in most articles is pregnancy. But most women can get pregnant according to webmd within a year, again, your results may vary.
So how did you figure out you are pregnant?
K: I you know I knew it. I felt it. I didn’t feel right, you know, quote unquote, it didn’t feel right. My body felt off. And I had generally been kind of self aware in terms of my body and I just like my intuition was telling me I was like, this is this is pregnancy and I’m like, no, no, no, it’s not pregnancy. It’s not pregnancy and it wasn’t going away. So we made a doctor’s appointment. And yeah, I was pregnant.
P: Well, that seems really challenging.
K: it was definitely I knew at that point, that I did not want to spend my life with my husband. And it was it was devastation, because that meant that I would be tied to Him eternally.
P: Yeah, totally. And it sounds like he or maybe I should just ask Did you consider ending the pregnancy or No,
K: I I don’t talk about that with my children. But I did. I asked at that point the I don’t know what they even call it but the the abortion pill was relatively new. But it had been established for maybe like two years at that point. And I asked about it, I knew that I didn’t have what it took to go to DNC, you know, the the medical removal, so I did ask to see if they had the pill and we did not here in Hawaii. We did not have it yet. So I I saw it as I that’s not an option.
P: Okay. I totally remember that. I think it was ru 46 And it was like new on the market.
So I went back and look this up. The drug was originally called ru 486. And it was developed in France in 1988. The name you might know it by now is mifeprestone. It’s a steroid that stops the action of progesterone. Progesterone, of course is one of the critical hormones that maintains the lining of the uterus during pregnancy and is one of the two drugs given to stop the advancement of a pregnancy. It was not made available to American women until September of 2000. But as always, when it comes to this charge topic, you had to pick it up at your doctor’s office. In 2001. Only about 5% of abortions were medical abortions.
So that seems I mean, pregnancy is hard enough. Even if he wanted desperately. So it seems like it would be extremely hard to get through the first trimester or take us on that journey. like at what point did you feel like any sort of excitement or
K: I unfortunately, I have to say that there was no excitement through that entire pregnancy because I saw it as a chain coming.
P: Yeah,
K: I couldn’t break. Yeah, it was as most women can attest to it, like it was unpleasant. To be pregnant in general. You know, I was nauseated. Most of the time I swelled up like a freaking water balloon. By the time I got to the end of it that what the tops of my feet jiggled when I walked. I have stretch marks on my inner thighs because my eye was so swollen with water. And that’s because if I was not putting something in something, everything wanted to come out. So I did a whole lot of sunflower seeds.
P: Oh, uh huh.
K: Very salty, lots of stuff. So I took in a lot of sodium. I was maybe halfway through or two thirds of the way through when I was like, I was kind of feeling upset with myself because there was no, there was no way out of it. Right. It wasn’t going to come to an end. And I thought to myself, you know, there are women who they they try, they work they spend 1000s to millions of dollars to become pregnant to become parents. And I did not ask for this but I still have it and no matter what there’s, you know, there’s a baby involved in this. And I had tried to convince myself that I should be happy about it because it’s a blessing because you know, that’s what we’re conditioned to. But it was really, it was really difficult to see it that way because it just felt like a life sentence until the moment she came out. Like truly the second she was laid on my stomach. It was it. I was a different person after that. And I have loved being a mother every moment since then. But I cannot lie and say that I was at any moment excited or looking forward to motherhood with the singular exception of when, when she was in me. She did not like being touched. She did not even swear she knew if you were looking at it and I would surreptitious, my eyes when you were looking at my dog was literally the only person who could read to me and she would respond. When you know when I was leaving my cleaner.
Of course, you know, a Doberman is a tall dog on the side and she put her head on my belly, and she would move more. So they the two of them are tight before she even came out. And they were tight. All the way up until until my Doberman died. We called her sissy she was the third child or the first child I guess. And they were tight tight. If you didn’t know where she was at, what Where’s the dog, then that’s where she went.
P: it’s so cute to be a dog lover in utero. That’s a good quality, right? That’s a good sign. But the pregnancy sounds so hard for you. I’m so sorry. I can’t even… it feels like the slow moving train of disaster. Because you probably you could probably feel the changes in your body and you’re getting bigger once you start showing that you’re going to have to have conversations of I know, I didn’t have the same path as you but we had medical issues. And once you’re showing the only story people want to hear is it’s so great. I’m so happy.
K: Yeah,
P: that’s like the only thing you can really say, which is limiting and is I think it’s just hard to like misrepresent yourself all the time.
K: It’s it’s, I mean, I think that we we do a disservice like how many women come through and they end up with or even before they give birth, you know, they have wide ranging symptoms, and a lot of them do include depression, but like most of the female experience in this country, you’re not allowed to talk about that you’re not allowed to have unhappy feelings like maybe if you just smile a little more, go for a walk, you know, and like, yes, there’s validity in
P: yes
K: smiling and going for a walk but it is not the solution, especially when you are literally be used.
P: Yeah.
K: Your hormones are not your home runs your food is not your food your life is not your life. You know and there are surely there are positive emotions that come along with that but just as surely is there a positive there’s negative stuff too, and sometimes it feels like shit.
P: Yeah, I mean, it’s it is much more complicated than people say it is. I think most people who talk about the second trimester as this glorious time, like in my experience, I thought it was glorious, because I was no longer vomitus at all points. Right. So it’s not like the second trimester. There’s something great about the second trimester. It’s like I all of a sudden don’t want to throw up no matter what the smell is no matter what the food is. And that feels like such a glorious relief that you’re the second trimester. So yeah, I totally agree with you. So let’s go to the birth. How do you know today’s the day how does that go down? And like what are you picturing from birth?
K: I Well, first of all it for any woman who’s listening start don’t don’t watch all the pregnancy cells on TV. You will it’s don’t do that yourself. I had been watching those and I realized after a couple of months I was like everything on this show is it is a trauma. Everything like these are not like the average birth these are like all of all of the horrible births that go wrong or the last minute changes. And then that turned out to be me.
so I wasn’t I was not looking forward to the birth because my husband told his parents that they could come like right at the time of the birth. And I was like in you know, like given give me a little bit of time have them come like a week later or so like, give me like give me some time. And he was like, Oh, I can’t tell them that you know, so I was not looking forward to trying to go through the transition of experiencing birth and then having the baby and having him and having his parents like all at the same moment. And are you guys still together at this point
K: Oh, yes. At that point. Yeah, we we had two children together. This was our first but I fortunately, my water broke. And she came about four days before her due date. So I had a little bit of window of time, but she was a 40 hour labor. So it was over the course of three days that I was in the labor and delivery ward because my water had broken but I did not actually physically go into labor.
P: So lets So let’s talk about that for a second. Where are you when the water breaks?
K: We are getting ready to go to bed I’ve taken just taking a shower, dried off, put my pajamas on and I’m walking to the bed. And that’s it I was like Oh, all right. We gotta go.
I know what that feels like.
P: Oh, it’s nice that you got like a Hollywood water break. So they eat like it’s dramatic enough that you know exactly what it is and you’re not so many women are like did I pee myself? It’s unclear. So now you know you have your bag packed. You go to the hospital and are they you don’t feel anything other than the water breaking.
K: Right? I don’t think I even had, you know Braxton Hicks or you know, the false labor. I didn’t have much of that with her towards the end of the pregnancy. She had chilled out a lot and she didn’t move around a whole lot. So there was not a whole lot of movement. Towards the end of it. It wasn’t the whole like, I look like I have an alien, you know, a 20 that kind of thing. So it was it was enough water that I knew that it was it was unmistakeably that not so much that it was like oh my gosh crisis we need to wash the carpets but enough to know for sure that it was time to hit the hospital.
P: And I’m guessing although it would have been helpful Sissy he was not allowed to come.
K: no, She was not No.
P: So you get to the hospital and they treat you like you’re about to have a baby or what’s their what’s
K: they evaluate me really quickly. They made me put a pad on because they want to verify that I didn’t pee my pants and I was like it’s I’m pretty sure I didn’t pee my pants. I think I would know if the different feel but you know, they have to verify. So I had to walk a lot because again, there was no other labor symptoms. So they’re like okay, well, you know, walk around we’ll have you walk when until you know labor actually starts and I did a whole lot of walking and labor did not start so eventually they had put me on Pitocin which is the synthetic form of oxytocin, which is the hormone that we have only ever cramps and stimulates squishing that thing out.
P: And did that. Did you feel that immediately or took a while or I didn’t feel it?
K: I did feel that Immediately. I ended up being on that, gosh, I don’t know like 30 hours.
So they would continuously raise the dose when my body was not responding. So I was having the contractions because that hormone will create the contractions, but I wasn’t dilating or effacing in my cervix. So, you know, my body itself was not was not doing the labor. It was just responding to the hormone.
P: As kekua says Pitocin is a synthetic version of a hormone called oxytocin. And Its job is to get the uterus to contract and those contractions will eventually do cervical dilation. But there are some important differences between the synthesized version and the one your body produces naturally Pitocin works more slowly and with less affects the natural oxytocin when it comes to cervical dilation, which means among other things, that it could take more Pitocin than it would natural oxytocin for labor to regress to the birth stage.
K: And it got to the point where and I was very much against having any painkillers because I did not want I generally don’t take medicine like it’s got to be pretty bad before I do just because that’s how I grew up. So I did not want any painkillers I didn’t want to have you know, I didn’t love the idea of epidural, that’s something that gets stabbed in your spine. I wasn’t super comfortable with that. But I got to a point where you know they put the monitor belt on your belly to monitor your contractions, the strength of your contractions. You got that little monitor next to the bed.
And the the level of Pitocin that I was on over the next like day and a half was to the point that it was off the top of the monitor and it did not come all the way back down. So I did eventually have I had two epidurals before she decided to make her entrance because an epidural only lasts about eight hours or at least at the time. So after about eight hours, and I tried to hold out and I was like Okay, it’s alright, it’s been eight hours she’s she’s gonna be ready anyway now and No, she wasn’t.
P: And I’m assuming you haven’t slept now.
K: No, no, I probably could have in the early part of being induced with Pitocin when it wasn’t so bad. But because they were induced the me I thought I had no concept this is going to take you know, 40 hours so
P: totally, You’re like any minute now. I want to be up for like breakfast, right?
K: Yeah, I that’s when I figured we were coming along breakfast time. And I was like, you know, at least I’m going to eat lunch at some point.
P: Now, that not so much. I’m glad you’re taking the epidural only because everyone says Pitocin is a much more kind of powerful route to birth and it is much more painful.
Okay, so this is a good question. Does Pitocin create more powerful contractions and is it more painful? There are studies that suggest that labor induction is positively correlated with epidurals meaning women who have their Labor’s induced are more likely to use epidurals, but doctors don’t randomly induce a woman’s labor. Something has happened in the course of birth reduction in the US. So it’s hard to tell if epidurals are more common in this set of women, because Pitocin creates painful contractions, or if induction and epidurals together are a signal of a long challenging birth. Having said that, non clinical sites suggest that these contractions are more painful. They are used in a non induced birth. The oxytocin created by your body causes the cervix to slowly stretch and when this happens, pain receptors send messages to the brain which responds by releasing endorphins which counter the sensation of pain, but Pitocin doesn’t cross the blood brain barrier. So you’re contracting yours is not sending signals to release endorphins
K: It’s painful. My dad had told me that at one point, I was twisting the arm on the you know, the arms that come up on the side of hospital beds. And he thought that I was going to break the bed because it was actually like turning in my hands. I can’t I can’t remember that. You know, trauma like yes, trauma puts those pretty curtains. over that. But I do remember that it was excruciatingly painful
P: well thank God your husband’s parents weren’t there for that.
K: Oh, he was on the phone with them like the entire time. Well, that’s good.
That’s two birds with one stone. That’s right, like everyone’s busy. That’s fine.
K: It did keep him away. It was very frustrating though when I when I actually needed him. And he was he was just never there. It was always on the phone.
P: Yeah, you know by my side. So once you’re it sounds like you had this flip. Switch once the baby was born.
K: I did towards Well, obviously at the very end they started talking about, you know, we have to consider alternate methods of birth, you know, meaning C section.
P: Yeah.
K: My auntie was a labor and delivery nurse. She actually worked at the hospital where I was giving birth. So they came in and they said a few things. And I looked at her and I was like, you need to do something about it because they’ve already had me in here for 37 hours. We’re not cutting now. You they need to figure it out.
P: Yeah, yeah.
K: And which is not necessarily wise because you don’t want to stay in that condition. But I was already in such a messed up mental state that I was like, No, you lost your chance to cut you figure it out. You figure figure out what you’re doing. Like how do you guys not know what you’re doing? Like I was aggravated. So she came in and she even though she was not working Of course. She you can’t work your own relative but she started working. And she had me turned side to side. And immediately immediately they turned me on my side and she went oh, here we go. It’s time.
P: Wow
K: And oh, knew it. I was like, oh, okay, she’s ready now. And they checked me and they were like, and I was finally like effacing and dilating. And but they still thought after all this time, you know, it’s gonna be another couple hours and I was like, No, I think she’s ready and they didn’t take me seriously because, you know, they do have more experience so their previous experience suggested that I was wrong.
P: Yeah.
K: But I wasn’t. So within 15 minutes. She was like, they were like, oh, we need to stop pushing. I was like, I can’t stop pushing. This is not my decision. She’s.
And so when she came out like I said that we’re not expecting her to pop out that fast. Everybody was still in the room. My mom’s here. My dad’s here. My brother’s here like everybody here because they’re like it’s don’t worry about it. You have time. Oh, no, didn’t have time. So when she’s like, you know, just a little heads popping out and they’re like oh, hit the doctor call button please. And my dad does this little panic dance. And he actually hits the code button on the wall.
P: Oh my god.
K: So so like they bring the crash cart in and the NICU comes in and like suddenly the room fills with people. I don’t know that he has hit the crash. I’m, I’m like, Oh my God, what’s going Why are there so many people? And she comes out and they lay her on my belly. And she’s kind of blue. She’s a very light. I can see even in the dim lights. I’m like she’s blue. And I look at my husband and I’m like why is she blue and he’s just staring at me. And then you know, so they cut and then they take her over so because the NICU had Brandon with their all of their equipment. They they take her to the NICU cart. I mean, you know, just there’s so many people I can’t see what’s going on. So I’m saying to him because he’s standing right there. I’m like, what’s going on? And he’s just standing there and I’m like, what’s going on? Find out what’s happening. And he still just keeps looking. I’m like, go over there and find out what is happening. Because the second like I said the moment they laid her on me and I put my hands on her. There was absolutely like you said like there was a switch and an entirely different person filled up my being because the second she came out that was my number one priority. And it was like I don’t know if there’s a way that you can correlate that to some other experience where people who’ve never had that experience could understand it. I don’t know any. All I know is that the second I actually became a mother to a living, breathing baby. I was a different person.
P: That’s awesome. And it is true that every birth you’re creating a baby no mother right at that moment, so that seems to me like that makes sense. Does she does your girls still like to make an entrance is that what was going on?
K: She’s she very much in her infancy was similar to as she was in the womb where she was fairly quiet. She would be animated when she was doing her thing. But if something came along, she would kind of not that she would freeze but she would stop whatever other things she was doing and she would just be very observant. So she might you walk in the room and she would just look at you.
And her eyes would follow whatever was going on. If you oh man is so I have so few pictures of her smiling as a baby because the second she saw the crank camera, she would focus on it. And like her eyes would go large and her face would go slack and she just like stare at it.
So it was really hard to catch her off guard and get a picture of her like giggling or anything like that. But she was not so resistant to others as she had been in the womb she was perfectly happy to go to her grandmother, her grandfather or you know, all of the rest of it changed. But she was I mean I don’t know what else to say it was she was a delight. I fucking loved every moment.
P: That’s awesome. Whenwe last left her she’s blue ICU guard. Did they just warm her up or what happened? They warmed her up.
K: She had been not deprived. I don’t know what’s the proper word but she had her cord had wrapped around her neck, but her arm was underneath of it so her one hand was crossed over her face. So a part of her neck was getting a little bit squished with the cord but not entirely.
P: Yeah.
K: So she was breathing but she hadn’t been breathing wonderfully, especially for the amount of contraction that she was under because of the level of Pitocin. So it was probably, you know, not a oxygen rich environment for that past day and a half but not enough to create any kind of damage, no long term, you know, problems or anything like that. She was she did come out as a healthy child who was just a little bit under oxygenated. So you know they rubbed her down they gave her a little bit of oxygen while they kind of stimulated her for a couple moments. And then she came back to me nice and pink. And did what was what
how long do you sit as before and what is postpartum like?
K: Oh gosh, postpartum was physically it was miserable because I had laid on my back for you know, so many hours because I couldn’t move and you know, you’re not supposed to lay on your back because of all that weight on your spine.
P: Yeah.
K: So my back was very sore, especially the spot where the epidurals had gone in because you know that it is a wound that’s healing after that. So that little spot in my back stayed sensitive, probably. Probably about a year.
P: Wow.
K: If I bent the wrong way, or if I hinged, you know, in a certain way it would kind of like, like it would just hit a nerve. It wasn’t, you know, a permanent weakness or anything like that, but my body was in rough shape. For a couple of weeks after that. There was definitely none of this. I walked out of the hospital looking great kind of thing. And I stayed I still looked pregnant. She was born December 12. We of course our Christmas pictures right December 25. I still looked like I was pregnant
You
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Episode 82SN: Episode 82: A Doula (and Mother of 5) offers Miscarriage Support and Much More: Aliza’s story, Part II
This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition you can find on social media, and other media more broadly, to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls.
In this episode Aliza shares ways to manage contractions…she also talks about some important strategies to help you get a birth closer to the one you want; everyone who has been through birth knows that it’s really the baby who is driving the process, but there are things you can do to potentially impact your experience, and Aliza talks about some of them here, as well as other doula secrets.
You can reach Aliza Said here
C section rates in Brazil and Uruguay
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/04/why-most-brazilian-women-get-c-sections/360589/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4743929/
C section rates in hospitals in the US, a Resource
Audio Transcript
Paulette Kamenecka: Hi. Welcome to War Stories from the Womb. This is a show that shares true experiences of getting pregnant, being pregnant and giving birth to help shift the common cultural narrative away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition you can find on social media, and other media more broadly, to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka. I’m a writer and an economist and the mother of two girls.
In this episode Aliza shares ways to manage contractions…she also talks about some important strategies to help you get a birth closer to the one you want; everyone who has been through birth knows that it’s really the baby who is driving the process, but there are things you can do to potentially impact your experience, and Aliza talks about some of them here, as well as other doula secrets
We’ll pick up my conversation with Aliza where we left off last week. She’s been in labor for a long time and very little was happening. The doctor just entered the room and suggested that a C section is imminent. And what follows is Aliza’s response.
Aliza 0:17
So anyway, the doctor came in, but after six hours of being an eight centimeters, he was like, Okay, we really tried giving you as much time as we could, but that’s it in 10 minutes. There’s nothing new. We’re starting Pitocin and I looked at my Doula, and I’m like, no Pitocin going on. Here. Within 10 minutes my baby was out. Yeah. And I in that moment and she was like, giving me this like guided meditation to really watch my baby coming out and like really imagine it and talk to my baby and, and I really worked on in those moments, those things that were blocking me. And as I blocked as I took away all those things that were blocking me, my baby came out. And yeah, it was a big learning experience. And I remember my Doula telling me then, every baby comes in a completely different way, because they’re coming to teach you something completely different. And they’re gonna live their lives in a completely different way. And each child teaches you something so different. And even now as they grow up, I remember that so much like the fact that I did something with my older, with my older children. One way doesn’t mean that my younger children are going to need the same same kind of thing. Yeah, so that was my second child.
P 1:33
Wow, that’s also kind of an amazing story because you’re so present for all of it. And so self aware about what’s happening in your body, which I think is a an amazing ability to have and remarkably useful. The thing I can relate to is the resistance. Because I remember the first couple of contractions, took my breath away, but were not painful in part because I didn’t know what was going on. And it didn’t, wasn’t my immediate reaction to resist them. But once I started to resist, because I was worried about it, then became painful, then it’s like a fight.
A 2:08
Right? I see many times with my clients even like, as a doula I see it many times that when they don’t know that it’s the contraction. It’s not painful. Yeah. But when, when all of a sudden oh my gosh, it really it hurts so much. I can’t do it anymore. I don’t think I’d like to really understand that. Even when my Doula told me that in between contractions, nothing’s happening. You’re not in pain. Like there’s nothing that’s causing it. To me that was completely like this epiphany like, Oh, it’s just working with each contraction. And really being present in each moment. And I will say, it’s something that I learned it’s not something that I that I was completely living before I had my babies, but I feel like birth is really something that allowed me to learn all these lessons for my life and it really changed how I could be present with my children. I use the same Hypno birthing techniques with you know, pain and other things actually have to go through like this dental work now that I’m going through and I use the same Hypno birthing techniques to like let go of pain. And it really works. You know, like when we’re able to not be in resistance to what’s going on. around us. We can ride the wave.
P 3:19
I want to try that at my next dental appointment. That’s good advice. So the second one’s back and home and how are things with two little ones now? Now you have two under two, right?
A 3:31
I have two under two and here’s where it starts getting complicated. Now I noticed they that I probably also had postpartum depression that I wasn’t willing to admit at the time. And now that I look back, there are many things that I see that I’m like, oh, okay, that’s probably what it was. It was really difficult also, because my my second child, he was a completely different baby than what I knew, I thought and I had all this haughtiness after my first one, that when you’re a calm parent, then you have come kids, but then I had my second one, and he was the farthest thing from calm, which is funny because today He’s very calm, but as a baby, he probably had some food like allergies and things that were bothering him in his stomach. And he was he was crying constantly, like even from the also he always wanted me like it was something unbelievable that from the minute he got out of my belly, he only wanted to be with me and he like knew to smell me the day after if anybody else would hold him he would cry. Unbelievable. Yeah, like something. I remember my mother in law saying like, I’ve never seen a baby at this age that anybody else takes him and he starts crying and only when I would hold him, he wouldn’t sleep. And he would cry. And I just felt like I was I was home with two two kids under the age of two. My husband wasn’t home most of the time. And it was really difficult, really difficult. I felt like I was crashing. I didn’t know at that time to also say that it was probably a lot of postpartum depression. And I fell into a really big, deep pit, like really bad. Also, at that time, we decided that we were going to go and move for a few years to Uruguay. We went to go work in the community there and it was in the midst of all that when I wasn’t completely aware yet of what was going on with me. He was six months old when we got there. And here I am in a new country, new language so much going on. And I really had to learn how to slowly take myself out of that pit and that was a big, big learning that I had
P 5:45
so much. Yeah, that’s so much transition in a short amount of time. Right. So now in about two years, you have two kids new, you know, moved house which is a big deal to a different country and it sounds like you’re not a native Spanish speaker. And that’s a lot right. And now you’re not with your family or not with your friends. That’s a big move.
A 6:09
Yeah, it was a lot and we were also in a very demanding position that my husband wasn’t home a lot and he was going through his transition of being in this new role and I was doing it was a lot. Also we felt like we have the strongest connection ever. Nothing can break us down. And all of this really like completely like shattered us up so that we could rebuild ourselves in a completely new way. So in those moments, again, it was really difficult and we thought we were gonna come back and we felt that we were just gonna give everything up. And then we were able to really like after completely breaking down to be able to build ourselves back together piece by piece by piece.
P 6:50
So that’s amazing. So a third child is born in Uruguay, right? Yes.
A 6:55
So a third child is born in Uruguay. And in Uruguay, like many South American countries, that the C section rate is very, very high. There’s like a lot of childbirth myths going on there. Like so much misinformation. And the hospital where I was supposed to give birth because that was my insurance. The C section rate was 90% Oh my god scared me. Like, really scared me. I felt like couldn’t even think of what was going to happen. So I started researching and searching for some doctor who was going to be able to be with me and encouraged a natural birth because it was really important to me. And I found the only doctor who was willing to go with me and but the like they know in the hospital that when he comes everybody takes a step back because they know that he does it completely differently. And it was the most beautiful experience ever. So I had a friend who really really wanted to talk to me for a long time and I kept saying, I’m not having the baby until I talked to you. And like I said it as a joke. But then I was ready to have the baby and I was like you know what, maybe because I haven’t talked to her yet. I’m not happy with the baby. So I invited her to my house and we were talking until again. Again another birth that started with late night talks. We were talking until like 130 in the morning. Then she went home and again at four in the morning contractions started and I called my doula. my Doula came we were I was in the bath a little bit and she saw that it looked like I was really moving forward. And she said she thinks I should probably start going to the to the hospital. So we call the doctor and he was on his way as well. And we were just like really in this bubble that we were able to create. Again, I want to say it’s also because we were after this, this period of time of transition and transformation that we like rebuilt ourselves. And we were in and I really feel like we were rebuilt before that and we came to this bird link in a beautiful united and connected way. So we were just like swaying and swinging again and singing and and really just enjoying and we get to the hospital. Now. Uruguay is an atheist country and you can see me your podcast listeners won’t see me but I am an orthodox do. I wear a head covering like I’m kind of odd there they you know I’m like the I mean all my neighbors knew me and they knew that I was the odd one but you know for the when I walked into the hospital they were like, what is this going on? And anyways it was very weird because there they have never seen the the nurses that I was with. They said they have never seen a woman who chose not to get an epidural or not to get a C section like a woman that chose to come and have a natural birth they’ve never saw that before. So And here I was coming with my with my music in my hand. And and but we were just singing and we were singing in Hebrew, also in Uruguay, singing Hebrew songs and bouncing on the ball and just like completely blissful. And when we walked in, I said to my Doula, I was like, How many centimeters Do you think I’m at? Later, she told me she thought I was at four and I said, I’m telling you I’m six centimeters. And the doctor came and he checked me. He was like, okay, the six centimeters was like, Okay, great. Let’s go. So we walk into the into the room, and he asked me if I wanted to be checked anymore. And he said, you know, let’s just go with it. And the whole time I was so connected with what was going on in my body. And he was so enabling to really be in that belief. You know what to do with your body? Like I would ask him Okay, now what? And he’d be like, You know what to do? You tell me like it’s your you know how to birth, which was amazing. It was really, really amazing. I mean, he was there watching me the whole time. It’s not like he was but it was very empowering. And so we were just like, really enjoying there and, and he would ask me like, Okay, how are you feeling? And I, I’d say to him, now I feel like my baby needs a little more time to come down. He’s still not all the way down. And then finally I said to him, Okay, I think I think the baby’s down and he checked me. And he said, Yeah, you’re fully dilated. Do you want to do you want to start putting anything? No, I’m not having a contraction yet. I laid down and I my contraction stopped for a few minutes, which is a beautiful secret that many birthing mothers don’t know that our body naturally gives us this resting time before we push many times. We don’t see it when we’re in a medical environment. But our body gives us that sometimes it’s three minutes. Sometimes it’s not a long time, but it gives us this time to really regroup and give ourselves that energy before we go to the last phase of pushing.
P 11:39
So when you say many people don’t feel is that because if you had an epidural, you wouldn’t feel it. Right? You
A 11:45
don’t know when you’re having your contract when you’re having contractions or not. And also many women at this at this stage, they’re already if they’re in hysterics, they’re in hysterics in between contractions as well and some some women you know, feel like they’re losing control, which is also another way to birth, which is a beautiful way to birth as well but complete lot to lose your control. And then you won’t feel it either. So but if you’re connected and you’re, then you’ll be able to end it doesn’t always happen but many times usually I see with my clients as well. That there is this kind of resting time. So I said to my to my doctor, I he’s not ready to come out just yet. And I lay down and we sing like another two songs. And then I got up and I was like Okay, I’m ready. And I actually have a video that my my husband said to me, how are you doing? And I was like I’m so great. He was like have what stage or yet was like I’m fully dilated. He’s like, Yeah, you like you like having a baby. It was like, Oh, I highly recommend it. It’s so beautiful. Like I was again completely drugged endorphins. And then I squatted and within two pushes he was out. Wow. And when when he came out, he was like complete. He had these huge eyes. And he was like looking at me and I said to the doctor, he’s not crying. So the doctor said to me if you had a birth like that, would you cry? And it was really just beautiful even a week after that. A friend of mine had a baby also in the same hospital and they found out that she was Jewish. So they’re like, Wait, do you know that Jewish woman that had the baby last week, and she was seeing the whole birth? We’ve never seen anything like
P 13:24
that. So funny. A lot of Jews in Uruguay is what I’m hearing.
A 13:29
No, there’s actually not so many. So when they find them, it’s kind of a novelty.
P 13:33
It’s so funny to me, like do you know the other one?
A 13:36
Well, I have, you know, clearly do it. They seem that
P 13:40
that is super funny. So that’s another fabulous birth and what’s the what’s the age difference? What’s the gap between number two and number three? Two and a half years? Okay. Okay, so now you have three under four. Yeah.
A 13:56
All right. My oldest was four.
P 13:57
Yeah. So that seems like a lot or we’re all good.
A 14:02
You know, going from two to three was so great. I mean, I think after after having my second baby who taught me like you don’t have control and you don’t really know what’s going on, and you know, have some more humility in your parenting. I think I was ready for whatever. And again, I was blessed with a really calm baby. And he was so easy and just really helped us in the transition, I guess. And it was just a really fun transition. We really enjoyed having another baby and watching the sibling dynamic is so emotional. I like even like until today all the time. I like see the dynamics between them. And I feel like there’s no bigger gift that I could give them then than this. You know each other. Yeah, that’s yeah, so yeah, so that was really special as well.
P 14:54
Now, the first two babies you had an Israel Yeah. So there are there dramatic differences between other than the high C section rate between Israel and Uruguay that you were like, Oh, this is so different. Well, the
A 15:07
hospital stay was actually very nice nearby because every gets their own room which in Israel is like not heard of. That’s one hospital that you would like pay extra. But there’s no such thing. I guess it’s also because of the high birth rates here in Israel compared to your right. There are many more birthing moms here. And also it was just like, kind of like a hotel but I don’t know there was like something very, very nice about the hospital there and the stay there. And also the duck because it was a private doctor and the whole system works very differently. But because it’s a private doctor, so you get to choose like, he said to me, tell me when you want to leave if you want to leave today if you want on tomorrow. Tell me when you went outside you like it was just very, that was very nice. It was very different than I wasn’t with my family. We were far away from family and that’s very different. We were very, very fortunate and lucky that a lot of our family did come a week after the birth but yeah, but going through all of that without family is also different. Yeah, yeah,
P 16:07
that’s a little hard. Okay, so then or do we leave you’re away for the fourth.
A 16:12
So I got pregnant, you’re going with the fourth. And that was also like when my when my third was about a year and a little bit and then when we came back to Israel, we were a few months after we came back I had my fourth and that was a homebirth a waterbirth a homebirth which was also really really beautiful. It was a Why do you
P 16:36
that you’ve had so much success with the doula midwife Doctor model? Why are we changing it to home births, so the fourth one,
A 16:44
okay, so I did have success and I didn’t have bad experiences. But for example, the second birth I felt that if I were at home for longer, I wouldn’t have gone so long. And I would have felt more comfortable and more oxytocin. You know, able, in my own home in my own environment without feeling threatened without feeling like I needed to always be like on the watch of what somebody was going to do to my natural birth, you know, which I want to say before I say anything about home birth. I believe that a woman births from herself, so it doesn’t matter where you’re at. You could be at a hospital, you could be at your home, wherever you are. You can have a beautiful birthing experience and I think that every woman has to make her own decision. Not because of some kind of societal, whatever. Every woman should do her own research and every woman should make her own decision. I don’t judge anyone for their own decision, and we shouldn’t judge anyone for their own decision. And it should just be something that you know, each woman is empowered to make that choice. So the fact that I had a home birth is not dissing the beautiful hospital births that I had. Well, I did I decide I did I did feel like I was at a place where I needed that privacy where I felt like that was I felt confident enough in myself that I was able to have a beautiful home birth and also I did more research. And I I wasn’t afraid like I was I grew up very afraid of home births. I always thought that it was women putting their own personal experience over the health of their babies. And I learned that it’s not about that at all. It’s about paying attention to the health of the mother and the baby. And it’s not about the experience. So I just like learned a lot about it. And it felt very right. My husband was Argentinian. All of his family were were born via C section he like for him this whole thing was very new. And for him it was a very scary thought. So I said to him, Look, let’s go to a midwife. We’ll talk to her. Ask her all the questions you have and then we’ll make a decision. Like I wasn’t. I wasn’t like completely. That’s it. Let’s do it. So we went and we went to speak to this midwife, and I chose a midwife who I knew she had a lot of experience. I think she was 20 years in the hospital and 12 years out of the hospital. Okay, so we went to go visit her just to like, go talk and ask her some questions. And my husband asked her all these questions, and he was very nervous about the whole thing. And after we left, I said to him, so what do you want to do? He was like, Yeah, let’s do it. Like, this is what we’re gonna do. So yeah, there’s a lot of prep that there isn’t when you have a hospital birth also, I I love hosting people. And I love people feeling comfortable in my house and I felt like if I’m having my doula and my midwife and I don’t know who’s gonna come after, I want there to always be like, really good, cooked nourishing food in the house. So like I felt like this. This pressure to always have like food in the freezer, and lots of like different options. So I always was like, packing the house with the food. And the kids were very much a part of the process because the midwife was coming to her house, and they would help her find the heartbeat which was super emotional and super exciting. And that was a really fun part. I didn’t want them to be a part of the birthing experience because I was afraid that I wasn’t going to be able to be in my bubble if I was being worried also about them like if I was thinking about you know, their needs, if it’s okay for them to be be at every point like if I was thinking about them. And caring for their needs, I wasn’t going to be able to completely go into my birthing bubble. So I didn’t want them to be at the birth they were also pretty little at that time. I did my
P 20:26
totally fair and like if they don’t understand it, it could be scary. And I yeah, that all that makes sense. Right? So I decided
A 20:33
that I didn’t want them to be with us and my parents who lived pretty close to where we were living at that time. They were going to come and take them. So it was actually a weekend, the second weekend that they went to my parents, and we were but we were like on a honeymoon vacation. We felt like it was really nice to be just the two of us without any kids. Since I don’t know when and we were just we lived in a place that was like in the middle of of the forest and it was like kind of raining the whole day and we went out walking the whole day and I started feeling a little bit of contractions in the morning and then played started coming on and then towards the afternoon. A little bit more. And then towards the evening. I felt like okay, this is really real now. We started tracking my contractions, which is the first time in my life I can track contraction because I needed to tell the midwife when she should come out to us. So we started tracking, tracking the contractions and I sent like the screenshot to my to my midwife, and she said look, it doesn’t look like it’s real labor yet because you have like every seven minutes and then every format, and then every five and then three and like it’s not so consistent. But here’s a really good thing that every woman should know every woman is different and like we said it doesn’t all go according to the books. And I knew that my body never was consistent, I guess kind of consistent with my personality. I’m not such a consistent person. I like to think to go with the flow. And I knew that with all my groups it’s it never goes consistent. So I said to my midwife, you know with all my books, it’s it’s like that and I feel like I’m in real birth. So she’s like, okay, you know your body the best. So she came out to us. And when she came she checked me and I was seven centimeters. Wow. Yeah. And again, music. It was actually the festival of Hanukkah of Hanukkah. Wow. So we had the lights burning and like it was like this beautiful, kind of divine kind of environment, feeling and ambiance and it was just
P 22:30
this sounds cinematic for sure. It was it really was
A 22:33
like we dim the light. We also had like the life that you could like dim in all different levels. And so my husband like played around with the lights to make it beautiful. We had music playing and it was it was really beautiful. We we blew up the pool in the middle of the house. And my husband was in charge of the hot water the whole time. And he and he was in charge of that as I as the contractions kept coming out. I said I’m ready to go into the pool. I got into the pool kept on breathing a little more. And it was just really fast and kind of I think it was like in total three and a half hours. I like touched she my midwife said to me, you you test like you tell me when you’re ready and you can you can feel which was so cool for me because I never really felt like it was my third birth. My doctor said here put your hand and try and feel his head and I couldn’t because of the way I was squatting or I don’t know what I couldn’t feel him. But this time I like really felt him coming out. So I like was able to feel his hair in the water. Wow. And as I was in that moment, my husband was filming me it was important for me to send a video to the kids like during the birth or whatever. So he was filming me in and I’m like telling them the baby’s coming you coming? Really really soon you’re gonna meet your brother soon. And then and he sent that to the kids and like he wrote to my mother we we feel the head or whatever. And then within like 10 minutes the baby was out, which was amazing. It was it was really beautiful, like so blissful.
P 24:09
Like that birth was physically easier in the water and at your house.
A 24:14
I think so. Yeah. I definitely think there was something very I don’t know the word enabling is coming up again like just enabling and given making space for be vulnerable in whatever way you want. And there was something very, very calming in that that allowed me to birth in a very calming and beautiful way. Like I wasn’t afraid of anything around me. I don’t know, I don’t know how to explain it. So that was really really amazing. And the water was great. It was really great. Also it was freezing cold at that time also so being in warm water it was amazing. And then having a baby and crawling into your own bed is like unbelievable. That sounds like comfortable and
P 24:57
especially when
A 25:01
your other choice is to be
P 25:02
share a room with someone else. Right? Right.
A 25:05
Right. So it was unbelievable and my midwife also she did all my laundry at when I was like nursing the baby she’s like started cleaning the whole house and she did all my laundry and she like left the house with with like all different she left me all these different herbal tinctures and all these different like aromas in the house that I should have. And it was just like, I felt like I was in a spa like in my own home. So it was beautiful. That sounds awesome.
P 25:29
That sounds totally amazing. And now why the fifth one is not in your house. Right? Right. So the fifth one was not in my house. We had
A 25:37
moved and for technical reasons only. I couldn’t have my fifth one in at home. But this is the proof that it doesn’t matter where you are if you are in your body you can be empowered in your connection with your body and with what’s going on. Because the fifth birth I decided that I was going to choose a hospital according to which hospital would allow me to have a waterbirth so I chose which hospital I was going to go to we needed to drive a little further to we came it was actually in the middle of a crazy rainstorm here that it was like kind of a hurricane but not exactly a hurricane. And it was pouring rain. And the contraction started at night I called my mother the teacher come and be with the kids. She came and she was with the kids and contractions were already coming like every two minutes, but I felt that they weren’t so strong yet and that they were I was like still in the beginning and I said to her Don’t worry, we’re still in the beginning. She was like no, you’re gonna have the baby in the parking lot. And I was like, no, no, I’m telling you. I still have to I’m still in the beginning. So we go into the car and it’s pouring rain like crazy, crazy rain. And then we park the car and there was like a little bit of a walk until the entrance to the hospital and until today my husband laughs at me about this. Because we started walking to the hospital and a contraction starts and I’m like, Okay, come here. Let’s start swaying. Like pouring rain. There’s thunder lightning and here we are dancing in the rain and holding a wall, holding the pool to blow up when we walk in. So here we are in the rain holding was local. And we walk in and I was like, Okay, I think I’m like in labor. And they check me and they’re like put your four centimeters, which I thought was important for me to come earlier because I wanted us to have enough time to blow up the pool and fill up the pool and everything for that and they were they said that we needed to have a perfect monitor if we wanted to be able to be in the pool. So I said okay, let’s do a monitor. Meanwhile, my Doula came and she was unbelievable. didn’t keep her hands off of me at all for one second. She was like massaging me the whole time and she was amazing. And I would pull on the ball, just singing waiting waiting for them to open up a room for us to go in. And we were again singing having a really great time. I was like dedicating songs to our family and sending messages look here we are having the baby and I’m singing this song for you. And then after like an hour and something they said to us, okay, the room is ready, you can go into the room, but there’s a little bit of a dip in the monitor. So you’re not going to be able to go into the pool yet. You have to have another perfect monitor. When you get into the room. We walk into the birthing room and I feel like things are getting much more serious. And I looked at my doula and I was like okay, like things are coming here. And I walked kind of barely to the to the room. And when I came in, they’re like, Okay, let’s check you again. And they checked me. And they said five centimeters. And I looked at my doula and I was like, huh I had these, like two voices inside of me. I had one voice, okay, it might take longer than I expected and I’m gonna let go of the control and that’s okay. And it’s okay if things are going to look completely different and I’m okay with that. And I had this other voice telling me my body is not at five centimeters. I am totally so much farther ahead than the doctor left after he checked me and I stood up to like try and get the pool started. I said to my husband, don’t blow up the pool. We’re not gonna have time for it. Because I stood up and I felt like I was already pushing and I said to my doula and my husband, I said, I’m going to break my waters right now and the next contraction and she’s going to come right out. And they’re like, Okay, like the midwife that heard me she was like, Okay, I don’t want your expectations to be so high. And I hear the monitor now. I’m a doula already. So I already have eyes on other things in the birthing rooms. And I hear that the monitor is beeping that the monitors that her heart rate was going down. And the next contraction I pushed because I was feeling a need to push already and I see that my water broke and I looked down and I saw that the water was a little yellow. And that’s why her heart rate was going down. And the doctor started coming in not just one doctor a few doctors because they see that the heart rate is going so much is going with with the so the yellow is meconium
Episode 81SN: A Doula (and Mother of 5) Offers Miscarriage Support and Much More: Aliza’s Story, Part I
This is a show that shares true experiences of pregnancy to help shift the common cultural narrative, away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka, I’m a writer and an economist and a mother of two girls. In this episode, you’ll hear advice about managing miscarriage or a woman who has experienced numerous miscarriages intermingled with the births of five children, and she’s a doula. She also shares how each experience taught her something valuable. Today, you’ll hear the first part of our conversation.
To connect with Aliza, check here
Audio Transcript
Paulette: Welcome to war stories from the womb. This is a show that shares true experiences of pregnancy to help shift the common cultural narrative, away from the glossy depictions of this enormous transition to a more realistic one. It also celebrates the incredible resilience and strength it takes to create another person and deliver them into the world. I’m your host, Paulette Kamenecka, I’m a writer and an economist and a mother of two girls. In this episode, you’ll hear advice about managing miscarriage or a woman who has experienced numerous miscarriages intermingled with the births of five children, and she’s a doula. She also shares how each experience taught her something valuable. Today, you’ll hear the first part of our conversation.
Let’s get to this inspiring story.
Hi, thanks so much for coming on the show Can you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?
Aliza: my name is Aliza Said and I’m so excited to be here. Thank you for having me. I am a mama marriage coach. I’m also a birth doula actually, and this podcast is very relevant. I’m a mom of five and I live in Israel. My main passion is helping moms who are feeling really overwhelmed and as I like to say feel like they’re drowning in dishes and dipers to be able to reconnect to themselves and to the people around them that they love. So that’s what I that’s my main task in this world now.
P That’s awesome. And, you know, my sense is that the Senate moms you’re talking to are all of them. Five kids, you lucky duck. That’s awesome. Oh, yeah.
A 1:42
Yes, very lucky.
P 1:44
So I love to start us off before the kids before Did you know growing up that you wanted a family? Do you have siblings? Was there something else that kind of sparked that interest?
A 1:55
Yeah, so I come from a big family as well. We’re six siblings. And from the time I remember myself as a little girl, I always had a doll with me. I was always like mommying something. I always wanted like a chimpanzee pet just so that I could be a mommy. Like I always wanted to be a mother at every age like so it was definitely something that I always dreamed about. I really wanted. I was able to see really empowered moms around me. And that’s just who I wanted to be. So that was really special.
P 2:32
That’s super cool. So I’m imagining that the first baby came before you became a doula or is that not right?
A 2:38
Before before I only became a doula before my fifth baby.
P: Okay, okay. Yeah, I will have a right yeah,
A: so actually, the first birth is what sparked my desire.
P 2:54
So for the first one, did you get pregnant easily?
A 2:57
I mean, what’s easily? To me. No. And it was really hard for me because I thought, and this is what I saw all around me that people get married and 10 months later that they have a baby. And that didn’t happen to me. And we also had a miscarriage a few months after getting married. And that to me, nobody around me ever spoke about miscarriage. I never heard about someone having a miscarriage. That was like, completely heart wrenching for me like I’m also not pregnant right away like everybody said, now having a miscarriage and I felt like a failure. I felt like my body wasn’t working. I felt like everybody was able to do it and only I couldn’t and that was really difficult. Now I noticed that it was one of the biggest gifts that we were given as a couple and me as an individual because it definitely made the mother that I am today but in those moments, it was really tough. we actually had an appointment to go start in fertility treatments. And we decided that before we start, we were gonna go on a vacation and we found out that we were already pregnant.
P: Oh, wow.
A: Yeah. Which was very, very exciting. But yeah, it was definitely a journey. And I now say that I’m so grateful for it, even though it was really really difficult and those moments
P 4:22
Now age is not the only thing that can affect your, your journey. But how old were you for the first one?
A 4:28
So I was really young, we got married very young. I always say I needed my husband to grow up like I needed to get back and really on, because we needed to grow together. I was 19 when we got married, and I had my first baby 21 and a half
P 4:45
So like today we say that’s young because people are having babies later and later but historically that’s not super young at all. That’s like right in the wheelhouse. Right, it’s when there’s when your body knows to be pregnant.
A 4:56
Right? And I remember even the doctor saying to me like when I had the miscarriage she’s like, well, you’re so young and healthy and like I ate really, really healthy and I was exercising like, super healthy. She’s like, you’re gonna get pregnant really fast. And then it didn’t happen. So like it doesn’t always go according to the books. And I think that that’s also part of the beauty of it, that it’s kind of the gateway to go into parenthood. It doesn’t all go according to the books and there’s this element of learning to let go of control and to be able to, you know, ride the wave.
P 5:32
Yeah, it’s such a it’s such a good lesson if that’s the way you interpret it because it’s totally true and everything you know, parenting will teach you whether you want it or not that you have no control. But this is a very good lesson that and I think most of us grew up even if you I live in the US and even if you didn’t grow up here, most of us grew up in the US. Okay, well, you grew up thinking I will have sex and I will be pregnant. And that’s how it works. And that’s not really how it works. That’s not that’s how it works. Sometimes right? That’s not that’s not really a thing. So how was the pregnancy?
A 6:04
So the pregnancy Well, I just want to also say to what you just said right now, that also it doesn’t always happen like that and also miscarriages happens. And I like make it a point to talk about I had two miscarriages probably another one in the middle over there. And I talk about it a lot. And I think that it’s so important to talk about it and like I say it’s kind of like awakening this silent tribe of women out there that we’re all in this together. So how was the first pregnancy the first pregnancy was beautiful, blissful, amazing. We were just like so in awe of the miraculous thing happening. And it was really beautiful. Like I felt amazing. I was really just every minute of it.
P 6:48
So take us to the birth. What are you envisioning? And then how are we doing today is the day
A 6:57
so what am I envisioning? Well, once I became pregnant, I was like, Okay, I’m going to do this in the most empowering, beautiful way that I can and I started researching and like really learning everything I could and reading a lot and and I found hypnobirthing. And I would like watch these home births and I was like, that’s what I want. And everybody around me said to me, just wait it’s your first birth. You’ll never survive without epidural. It all sounds nice and everybody around me was saying all these different things and I was trying to believe it could be beautiful
A 7:37
My husband was at a party. He was working in education, and he was with this student until like two in the morning. They have this party. He came back we were like we were like talking until late and then four in the morning. I started feeling like period cramps. I was like meaning I think something might be starting here. I put like a warm bottle and we were just like kind of soaking it up. We put on our music and my playlist that I got ready. And we started just enjoying the day and the wave started coming and the contraction started. We went out for a walk to go see the beautiful view and I was like it’s gonna take time. So the first birth and we were just having a lot of fun together. And I wasn’t counting contractions or anything because I was like it’s gonna take time, but my mother kept calling and she was like, okay, that were two minutes in between contractions like you gotta go. And we were just I was not in pain at all. I was completely like riding the wave, like I said before, and just really breathing through it like swaying with my husband and going on a walk in nature. The doula came to my house. And I said to her, I think we should start going out because we lived kind of apart from the hospital. And I said, I’m a little nervous because when there’s contractions, and I’m breathing, I feel like something’s coming out. Okay, let’s go so we finally got to the hospital and I walk in and I’m like, swaying and swinging and singing to myself and the doctors let the midwife who who was there when we got there like Okay, first birth, it’s going to take time I see that you’re excited, but then she was like really not acknowledging that I was far along. And then she checks me and she’s like, you’re fully dilated.
P: Oh my gosh.
A: And she was like, completely shocked. My husband started hysterically crying and we were just like, so excited. And she was like, Okay, I’m getting you a wheelchair and I don’t need a wheelchair. I’m gonna walk. So I walked in. I walked into the laboring room, and I was like, Okay, now what? So the midwife was like, Okay, start pushing, even though now I know I was not ready to push at all. I did not feel the urge to push at that point. But I was fully dilated and she said to push so I started pushing.
P 9:55
So I put three hours well, let me only stop you there for a second. Yeah. Do you know how push have we taken a class like what happened to the homework? That seems like that flew out the window?
A 10:06
Well, that at that point, I wasn’t gonna have homebirth yet. I only had at my fourth grade. I had like a real journey with each birth. So the so I knew how to put we did like a course with with my doula. We kind of spoke about pushing, but I was in such an endorphin bubble, that I was just completely blissful. Like the midwife asked my husband, what did she smoke at home? I was really just enjoying every moment of it, and we were singing and we were like, completely enjoy it. And it wasn’t even like aware of things I was saying, like I opened my eyes and I know that everybody’s crying around me, because I was like, pouring out my heart and I was like, I was completely drugged on endorphins. So in I mean, now I know to say that I did not need to push for two and a half hours, but in those moments, I was really enjoying it. We were singing all the doctors there was like a line outside of the room because they all wanted to come in and see the beautiful spiritual experience that was going on in the room. So I remember the doctor said to me, you know, we need to put up a big screen so everybody can see how it could happen. So after two and a half hours of pushing, she finally came out and it was just a beautiful moment like unbelievable. It was really blissful. And yeah, so that really was what started my journey and understanding what an unbelievable power we have as women and what we can birth into this world. second birth was completely different.
P 11:40
We’ll get there that so that’s awesome. That is such a lovely story. And I can imagine if that were my first birth, I’d have five kids also. Because I’d be like, I always just want to do this more. Right. That sounds great.
A 11:54
Absolutely. I say some people like to go bungee jumping. I like to have kids.
P 11:59
Yeah. Yeah, they’re I think there are some people who have like, the just so physiology and all that and so it’s awesome to meet one of them. Thank you for coming on. So that sounds lovely. That sounds amazing. And then how’s the how’s the fourth trimester fine, and how does it go?
A 12:17
So yeah, so also that like we were completely blessed, I’m telling my first story, but hold on for a second. Like it sounds too perfect. That’s alright. Life gets real, but the first one was very blissful. Also, she was the easiest baby ever. She completely like made it so easy for us to do the transition. She slept when we wanted her sleep. She didn’t like she was just you smile when when she was awake. Like she was the easiest baby ever. All right now she’s, you know, teaching us what kind of parents we need to be. But, you know
P 12:49
And she’s still have like that character.
A: No.
A 12:56
I mean, what’s the character like?
P: Is she really easygoing
A: She suddenly like easy, you’ll have a lot of power in her. Okay. Okay. Like, I mean, she has all of that but ya know, she has a lot of a lot of inner fire.
P 13:09
Good. I like to hear. So now let’s get to the second one and ensure you have this first one and how old is the first one were you before you think oh, let’s have another. So
A 13:20
we were really thinking I was on birth control. But it didn’t wait. I was on birth control and then I had a miscarriage. And then that was again, not so easy. But even though it was a completely different experience, going through it with my baby on top of me. That was when she was around seven months old. And then I got pregnant again. Then I went to like, I also went to like a natural doctor and someone who was actually a traditional midwife, and then she went to go there in Chinese medicine. And we did like acupuncture and herbs and lots of different things, which was a very good healing process for me. And then about a few months later, I kept telling her I want to start trying to get pregnant because once I start trying, it’ll take me like a year and a half at least, like it takes me time. Like, let’s give me the time and she kept telling me no, no, give yourself time to heal yourself and to heal. And then I think it was my daughter’s first birthday. She’s like, okay, you can start trying, but like on a low burner. And then I got pregnant right away, which was like really miraculous and really amazing. So I also want to say in parentheses. There are many people that wait much longer, and like my story is, you know, a small little time that we needed to wait and this was the journey we needed to go through. And I just want to say that I send so much hugs and empathy to anyone who’s waiting much more than me less than me and I feel like those months gave me the ability to understand and have much more compassion towards women who go through that, like I really, I’m very lucky I didn’t have to wait so long. But I it was such a significant part of who I am. Because it gave me that compassion to all the women out there even though I understand only a tiny bit of what they’re going through. So I just want to say that
P 15:17
that’s nicely said Wait, let me ask you one thing before you go on in your journey of the five kids. You had two miscarriages total or you had more
A 15:27
two probably three but we didn’t really like two, two official.
P 15:31
So as a as a doula and someone who’s in this space and maybe you didn’t do for yourself because you weren’t there yet. But do you have an idealized ritual that you would tell people to do or something you wish you had done? Or, you know, something you’ve learned both from your personal experience and your experience as a doula that you might want to share with people about you know, I have found this is particularly helpful in miscarriage.
A 15:57
Yeah, well, I’ll say two points that I find is really important, from my personal experience and from the women that I work with. One is to really give yourself permission to grieve debris. And it doesn’t matter how many weeks you were pregnant it doesn’t matter if you wanted the pregnancy and, and it happened or if you weren’t expecting a pregnancy and you happen. It doesn’t matter what the circumstances are. Allow yourself to have this time of real grief. And I feel like today we’re so quick to go back into life. I just spoke to a friend who went through a miscarriage many more weeks than I was she was almost halfway through
P: Wow.
A: She felt like a need to go right back and she’s a dance instructor and she like uses her body a lot and she went like right back and and after a few weeks she completely crashed and she said I didn’t give myself that time to like, really just sit with it and be okay with it that this is what my body’s going through and to give myself that time and to go through all the feelings and and sometimes it’s all different feelings and sometimes they’re scary feelings and sometimes they’re contradicting feelings, and all of that is okay and give yourself that time for that vessel. When I think that that is super important. Then know how to contain that vessel and go from there, but I feel like there needs to be more of a permission slip to all women out there to go through that.
And the second point that I want to say is to really recognize how different the way that me and my partner are going to grieve. Many times it can cause a lot of friction, it can cause a lot of resentment, a lot of blame a lot of a lot of things. I think that recognizing that we both go through this in a very different way. But we’re both going through it is so important and to be able to open up and talk about it and to be able to know how to listen to the other person. And even though it’s my body that went through it. My husband also went through a loss and to be able to also recognize that and to be able to really go through it together and not just expecting him to be able to see what I’m going through or this is something I see a lot with my clients, whether it’s miscarriage and also birth, you know also in a birth, a husband is also going through all of these things, even if it’s not his body, but really recognizing that we’re both going through these big transformations here. And being able to recognize that and know how to really work with that instead of working against it.
P 18:33
Yeah, those are two really good suggestions. I wish I wish in American culture we had a well defined set of rituals for miscarriage like we do for the funerals of people who have been alive a long time or even or even babies right we have a whole set you know the Irish have a set of rituals Jews have a set Indians have a set so many different cultures have a way that they process those feelings. And the step by step this of it is really useful when you’re in the deep emotional well of sadness and grief. And I wish we had something like that for miscarriage, which you know, or I guess our process is to ignore or move on. Right? That’s our ritual, but that doesn’t seem very satisfying or useful.
A 19:16
Right. And also, I feel like when we’re able to do when you expand your heart to feel the really hard emotions, then you’re also expanding your heart to be able to feel the good emotions, you know, in such a stronger way. So yeah, I I I encourage everyone to do their own ritual and to do whatever I mean, there’s so many different things. I don’t want to share personal stories of clients this Yeah. Permission to share their own personal but there are so many things that people do as you write as Jews we have our own rituals that we do after and yeah, it’s definitely very really soul encompassing like it kind of gives you this you know, place to really go through it.
P 20:01
Yeah, that’s totally Well said Aliza. So your point about you have to feel the bad to fill the gap. Right it’s it’s a continuum and you have to open the door to feel at all so but I interrupted you on our on our second baby. So now we’ve passed two miscarriages, we get pregnant again. We’re so excited.
Okay, go…then what?
A 20:19
Again. Pregnancy is beautiful, amazing. feel amazing. Have a baby with me, but really enjoying every minute of it. My baby was home with me. I mean, she was she was home with me. Yeah, at that point. She was home with me, and I’m just really enjoying. Then I was really ready. At the end of the pregnancy. I was like feeling really ready. Okay, let’s go. Let’s get this happening. We went on a really long walk. We lived like in this mountainous desert area. And we went like, climbed up mountains and came back. And I was like, I just want to wash the floor. I started washing the floor and as I watched the floor Park I heard it like burst my water. My water broke. It was a good thing. I was washing the floor because it was like
A 21:11
yeah, I was like okay, I guess it’s it’s starting but I wasn’t having any contractions.
P: I’m down here already
A: Now I was already going into this birth was like a lot of expectations because after the birth that I had, I would like I’m probably gonna fly through this one. It’s gonna be beautiful and I like I was still kind of a perfectionist at that point. Now I’d say I am a recovering perfectionist, but then I was still kind of a perfectionist. And to me, you know, okay, I had a perfect birth and here I am gonna have it again. So it started with the water breaking and that kind of got me nervous already because I knew that having your water break, you know, there’s probably more of a chance that anything can happen from there. If if nothing starts if that you know too much time passes, and they’re gonna have to start intervene. And I didn’t want all of them I was I was like, Okay, this is how it started. Let’s get the contractions going.
P 22:05
So, so just to interrupt you for a second. I think what you’re saying is once your water breaks, the clock starts right because you need to because of fear of infection, or you need to get things moving. So so now you feel like things have to happen.
A 22:20
Exactly. There’s a wide range of how long that clock is. I mean, there’s some hospitals here in Israel. There’s some that is 24 hours, some 48 hours. I know I also had a baby in Uruguay and there it’s called hours. So like it really varies where you are. I actually heard of a place of 72 hours. It really depends. So anyway, I knew that my clock was ticking, and there were no contractions at all. So we decided that we were going to send my daughter to my father in law because I wasn’t gonna eat my car. I came to pick her up and bring them bring her to their house. And we were like, Okay, let’s just make an oxytocin kind of kind of environment. So we turned off the lights and we put on candles and we started singing and dancing and just putting like good, good aromas in the house that I liked and just tried to really bring out good energies and then contractions started coming. And when they started coming at a good pace, we’re like, okay, maybe we should start going out because, first the first birth went kind of fast for our first birth, maybe the second will be even faster. I’ll just say in parentheses, it was not. It was the longest birth ever. So at one contraction, like I had a whole lot of water coming out and I felt like maybe I felt something and I was like, Okay, maybe we should get in the hospital, get into the car and go to the house. So we get into the car and really as we left the house and started driving towards the hospital, the contractions completely stopped. Like nothing, nothing at all. And we spoke I spoke to my Doula on the phone, and she said, Well, maybe go back home. See if we were in far from the house and she said maybe you know, try and bring it on again. And then you guys could go so we went back home started again. And again, the contractions started coming. And again, we leave and again the contractions are like almost met. And it was so clear to me that I was that I was kind of like blocking. Like I was nervous what was gonna happen and the whole time I was very aware of what was going on inside of me and how much it was really affecting the way that the birth was going on inside of me and how much it affected me. So we get to the hospital where
P 24:28
the first one was so well like why what what’s bringing on the nerves that you want it to be as good as the first is that what the what’s going on for you?
A 24:36
Okay, there were a lot of things going on. One was that that I had these really high expectations. Second, I was like the poster girl of birth like I had to bring back this beautiful story so that everybody could see how beautiful birth could be like I felt like I had huge pressure on me. I also was at the time we were like not sure if we were moving, not moving. My husband had given up his job because he thought that we were moving and then we decided we were like we were in this like really really turmoil kind of time that just wasn’t sitting on me well and there were like a lot of stressors in my life at that time. And I wasn’t like I wasn’t coming from a settled peaceful place. Like I was the first time.
P: Okay.
A: Also I was really nervous that maybe I was gonna have to go to the bathroom. This is like a real fear that I have and a lot of my clients also have, I was so afraid that we’re gonna have to go to the bathroom during birth. So I was like holding myself every time that I had a contraction. So then we get to the hospital and I said I still don’t want to go in I’m not in my bubble yet. Let’s walk around in the in the parking lot. Now it’s freezing cold in the Jerusalem air and it was freezing and here we are walking around in the forest. For about two hours. We were walking around and I was enjoying every minute of it because I was like swaying during my contractions. And I felt like I was bringing them on in a good way. My doula and my husband told me afterwards that they were freezing cold and they like, but they just wanted to be there for me and they were then we finally go in and I was six centimeters. And I was like Okay, good. We’re enjoying. We started actually playing backgammon haven’t really played back at me my husband at that at that time, and then contractions kept going. And then I got to eight centimeters. And I got stuck for six hours at eight centimeters. And it didn’t matter what we were doing. I put my foot up on a chair. Maybe he was the wrong position. I tried doing like all these different exercises with my doula and nothing and every time they would check me and again eight centimeters, eight centimeters. And at that time, I said to my husband, I know that these things are bothering me, like I gave him a list. And that’s why I’m not able to completely let go. And I like I’m not. I’m not completely relaxing and I know that I’m holding it up. And I was like aware but at that moment, I couldn’t yet let go. And then a doctor came in after six hours. And he said to me, Listen, we gave you a long time. And also I want to say that this time. It was painful, like this time when I wasn’t able to let go it was very painful and I like knew now what they mean when when pain when pain can be really real in childbirth. And that was new for me because my first and thank G-d my others were not. So I knew what it was and I really felt like it was when I was holding myself then it was painful. And then the Dow employment and so
P 27:38
So it’s like resistance is the issue.
A: Yes.Yes. Like when you work with your body. It doesn’t have to be painful. You feel a strong power and a strong surge going through your body. But it wasn’t painful at any moment. Like even our at my first birth a doctor came in. I wasn’t aware that I said this only told me afterwards that a doctor came in and to call the other doctor that was there because somebody wanted an epidural. And they told me afterwards that I said No Tell her not to get the epidural. She doesn’t know what she’s missing out on. Like I was just so enjoying. I don’t judge anyone that takes an epidural who ever needs an epidural. Whoever wants an epidural? You know? No, no shame to that at all. Not because that’s not why I said it. It was just like in that moment. That’s what I was feeling. So anyway, the doctor came in and after six hours of being an eight centimeters he was like okay, we really tried giving you as much time as we could, but that’s it in 10 minutes. There’s nothing new. We’re starting Pitocin I looked at my doula and I’m like, nope, what’s going on here?
P 28:43
I’m gonna stop my conversation with Aliza here. In a second. It was very much and up to this point, mirroring the beautiful and easy birth like she hoped it would. On the one hand, it’s easy to relate to these a stress feelings about trying to walk footprints left by Erzberg at the same time to vaccinate. And he’s gotten almost science fiction feel to Yes, of course you can do things to reflect your own state of mind and relaxation and those who’s getting pregnant and being birth is often early parenting. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the show, if you learned something or felt connected to or just appreciate these stories of real please go over to Apple or Spotify or wherever you’re listening. It helps we’ll be back next Friday with the rest of my conversation. She shares how his second birth went down and talks about her other