Author: paulette_kamenecka

Anja Simmons

[00:00:00] Hi. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Could you introduce yourself and tell us where you’re from?

Sure. My name’s Aya Simmons. I am a yogi parenting coach, a speaker, an author and the biggest one, you know, mom of two, and I’m originally from England, but I live now in Toronto, Canada.

Oh, lovely.

Lovely. You said Yogi parenting Coach. Was that the first thing? What’s that? Yeah.

Yeah. , that’s

unusual, right? . What does that mean? What’s that title mean?

Okay, so what it means is From my own journey of , becoming a yoga teacher and my own yoga journey, I realized when I was supporting and, and guiding parents, mostly moms actually that it was the yoga portion that really changed the way I parented.

And that’s then what I bring to the table not necessarily touching your toes, we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about the whole feeling and scope of yoga. In terms of breath work, in terms of how you feel in your [00:01:00] body in terms of being present, that kind of thing.

So that sounds super cool.

I’m a devoted yogi, so , let’s make sure we talk about that at the end, cuz I wanna hear how you’re using it. Perfect.

Yeah, I’d love to. Very

cool. But before we get to the end let’s start back before kids. Did you have siblings? Did you always know you’d want a family?

Yeah. Yeah. So I had I have a brother, a one year older, a sister, one year younger. I come from a divorced family where they both remarried and there were stepbrothers and sisters as well. I always knew I wanted a family because at that point I really loved looking. After I was babysitting and taking care of kids, I went on and became a trained British nanny.

It’s a thing. , so I knew, yes, and I, I really wanted a big family In my head that’s just the head, not body in my head. Oh my gosh, how amazing. Loads of kids, dogs, maybe even a farm. I mean, I was like completely in the dream world of my coping abilities. . [00:02:00] But yes, so I had wanted a huge family.

 I’ve never heard anyone put it this way and it’s so smart to say in my head and not my body because I’m a hundred percent with you.

Yeah. I, kept saying to my husband a team, not a, not a football team, but a basketball team. Five. Yeah.

Perfect. Yeah. Mine was six, I felt six had my son and I went Great. I think we’re done . I do have two, but we did go again. But yeah, it was certainly at the time. Yeah.

But I think for me, and maybe tell me if this is true for you as well, it looks a lot easier than it is.

Oh my gosh. And I, and don’t forget, I had actually nanny, so I had looked after other people’s babies. I had helped moms when they’d had a baby. I had looked after toddlers, twins all of that. But I could clock out at the end of the day and sleep. Yeah. Big difference. . Yeah. I mean, huge difference. ,

the difference between me and you is I had no experience, right.

I had no idea what I [00:03:00] was talking about. And, and had never successfully, you know, nad anyone else. So right. So yeah, I was definitely flying blind, but, so you’ve decided you’re gonna have a family and then do you step into it easily? Is it easy to get pregnant or how does that go?

I was really lucky.

 When we decided Yeah, we’re gonna have kids kind of to start the whole process. I got pregnant right away. It was very easy. I had actually also a pretty easy pregnancy. I had the typical morning sickness stuff for the three months, and then I actually I loved it. I had never felt so connected to my body.

That’s interesting. At that time, yeah. And I didn’t realize how disconnected I was to my body. Yeah. Talking about the head, not the body before. And so I don’t know. I felt like I had magical powers. I mean, I really was in this like, my God, I’m carrying a child, people, I have made this thing in my belly, you know?

And so that part of it was very, Yeah, pretty blissful. I, I also was in a good part of my relationship , so my husband was just as [00:04:00] much in awe and amazed at the whole thing too. So I mean, all of those that don’t have that to be able to even get through the pregnancy, nevermind the birth and everything.

So in that, that point, I was definitely ahead of the game and, and lucky in that, you know, oh, you need a foot. Oh, you do. Oh, you sit down. I, you know, all I had all of that. Yeah. And just as excited about any little flutter in the belly, any appointment we went to, that kind of thing. So it did feel a bit like hours as opposed to just

mine.

So all of that is really interesting. Let’s walk a little more slowly through that. Mm-hmm. , the first thing I wanna focus on is everyone says, oh, it was super easy. It was normal. I was, I was really sick the first three months. I get that it’s common, but it’s not easy. Right? It’s not, it’s, it’s such a shock and it’s such a dramatic way for you to understand that your body is being rented out to some other purpose because, , right?

It doesn’t matter what you ate, you could have had a, you know, a toast for breakfast and you, you’re [00:05:00] still gonna throw up and feel terrible and have this kind of lethargy that is just an enormous weight. Yeah,

yeah. Right. It’s beautifully said. Really, really true. And obviously I’m talking 25 years ago, so at the time now, reflecting back on the pregnancy part, we’re get obviously into the birth later, but I.

I actually didn’t mind the sickness bit because , that part I knew about, I was ready when it ended and I was really lucky that it kind of did do the normal three month. Yeah. With him, with my daughter was very different. But yeah, no, it is a horrible feeling. We won our own business size, going into work, going into the washroom, throwing up, coming back out, trying to be professional, going back in, and then the tired.

Was. You know, I was, I feel I was quite young at the time. I was 30 when I had my son, and I felt pretty fit, pretty, all of those things. So but I, and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, I haven’t even, it’s not much of a baby in there now, and I’m still tired. , you know, his weight is not something I’m carrying at this [00:06:00] time, you know?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, it is. I, I kind of marvel at our younger selves thinking , You know, we’re expected to just fit into normal life and I had a job and I, you know, yeah. I just ran off to the bathroom and threw up and came back to my job. That’s, yeah. . What, why is that normal?

I know. Why, and why is that not really even, you know, something that anyone else has to deal with unless you’re pregnant.

Right? Yeah. . Otherwise you’d be running to the doctor thinking, okay, something’s wrong with me, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

And I, and I take your point that it was consistent with your expectations, so Yeah. You know, that part of it. Wasn’t necessarily hard to manage because you knew that this was, this was part of the deal, I guess.

Yeah. But, but the

 Actually, I do remember, sorry. Something that I, I just remembered now was being my lovely vain self at that point. I had a horrible chin rash across my chin, like really bad. Acne and acne’s. Not really something I’ve. Now more menopause. I’m dealing with them back there.

So I think the morning sickness or all day [00:07:00] sickness, that definitely wasn’t a morning thing only. And the rash, the rash actually bothered me more because that was more visible. Yeah,

I guess, yeah. Yeah, I’m just saying pregnancy is hard no matter what. Right? That’s, oh God. Yeah. . That is a tricky thing and , the felt experience is so different than the description, right?

Mm-hmm. , it’s one thing to say you’ll be sick. It’s another thing to walk around feeling green all day. Right? That’s, yeah. And eating

crackers and thinking, this is just something I would never do. I’m not a bird. . Yes, totally.

Totally. And I Somewhat ashamedly. Admit that I, a vegetarian could only eat hotdogs cuz that was like the only thing that’s vile

And I haven’t, I haven’t touched a hotdog since the pregnancy, but I was craving salt, I guess, probably. And I, yeah, that was what I could eat, but. Well, that’s so

funny. And I had I remember with my son, it was with my daughter was carrots. Go figure. So at least that was healthy. But with my son was salt and vinegar crisps, we call them in England.

Yeah. And I was making my family in England semi because I only wanted those ones. I did not want no, any Canadian [00:08:00] ships. I wanted these particular ones.

Yeah. Yeah. No, you, you have been overtaken by some, by some other force. Yeah. Very powerful force. And I also kind of relate to your awe in the second trimester when you can come up from the toilet seat and lift your head away from the garbage can.

You know, I, I interviewed someone who said, she was talking about sitting on her couch watching tv, and she was saying to her husband , can you go get me some water? I’m making a foot right now. I’m busy. I’m, I’m busy working on feet over here, so I can’t, which I was like, such a funny and great way to describe it, because That’s true.

It’s totally true. Yeah. So before we get to the birth, what were you imagining the birth would be like?

Totally blissful, totally. I can totally manage pain. People don’t die. This was very, very arrogant. I also w in the hospital here at that time, maybe they still do, you had those birthing classes.

So you would go and you did, I don’t know, six weeks or something or other. So I felt very prepared and I wrote a beautiful birthing plan and [00:09:00] I believed, And I was led to believe that my beautiful birthing plan is how my birth would be. That is it. That is what was going to happen. We could bring music in.

Yeah. We could bring in, I think a bouncy ball thing, the things you sit on. And yeah, I felt very ready, very plan prepared. I am the kind of person who I, I didn’t at that point connect to my body. So to me, I hadn’t visualized anything. I just knew beginning, and he’s my beautiful.

Okay. And I’m imagining you’re, you’re thinking of a vaginal birth in a hospital.

Yeah. Is that what

you

were thinking? That’s totally, yeah. Yeah. At that point I had tried for a midwife, a doula. They would, that was pretty rare. Now I think it’s obviously much better, but yes, for me it was definitely that my mom actually had home births with us and so there was a big thought about it, but it didn’t, yeah, I didn’t feel I I, I would be comfortable with

that.

And , did your mother’s view play into your [00:10:00] expectation? Did she say It’s beautiful? It’s a little bit,

yeah. Yeah, it was like start to finish pretty easy. You know, almost the squatting, here’s your baby, and off you go, , it did, it didn’t happen that way. Such a shame, Paulette, because I did love that whole scenario.

But the wake up, right, that actually happened because of it all, and due to it all was, was the learning I really needed. I.

Yeah. So, so we’re gonna go right there. Mm-hmm. , although I will say it’s a beautiful story and who doesn’t fall in love with that? Beautiful. Yeah. Right. The end to this dramatic transformation will be gentle and, easy.

Yeah. And quick. Yeah, very quick, very easy. People said it’ll be a bit painful, and I thought, wow. I can handle pain. What are people talking about? . Right? They, like I said, denial. Big denial, big dream. World. Denial.

Well, also the language does not suffice. Right? We need a different word for, [00:11:00] for contractions and, and labor and Childbirth than, than the word pain, which is applied to a paper cut or, yeah. Absolute. Stubbed your toe. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. So we, well, we’ll get cracking on that. That’ll be our next assignment, . So the day your son is born, how do we know today’s the day, what happens?

So my memory is that he was overdue, is my memory.

And I had, was having those. Contraction. You have to remind me of all the words. Cause I, I think it’s Braxton Hicks. Braxton Hicks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I had these contractions and they would build and then stop and build and then stop. And funny enough, my mom, I was so blessed, was waiting in England for the time to come over.

She was ready, wanting to come. She figured she’d miss the birth, but as soon as labor started, she was on her way. So it got quite thought it was ready. Bless my mom. She arrives and I’m sitting on the couch like, oh no, no baby. And so it, I know it went on a few days and fast forward to when it was actually happening.

When the contractions got stronger and bigger I was. To [00:12:00] be honest, really kind of enjoying the process at that point, cuz the pain was obviously very tolerable and my mom and me were sitting, my husband was sick, he’s in bed. My, my mom and me are playing cards at the table and every time there’s a contraction, I would stand up, but I would kind of breathe through it.

My mom would run my back and then we carried on and then it, that kind of increased and my mom then woke my husband up and said, right, we gotta go. Get in the car. The hospital wasn’t sort of that far away. So that sort of was the start that it became. Okay. It’s actually really, I think, happening now.

Okay.

So it’s the timing of contraction’s, not like water breaking or anything that’s sending in the hospital? No. So no water?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We were definitely very premature because then we get to the heart of the door and I think, and I know this is my personality now more than I did then I’m all good until.

The moment. So as we are walking through the hospital, . I was thinking, oh fuck. Like it’s actually really gotta come out now. Now I’m in the, now I’m like, Oh, I don’t know [00:13:00] how, how does a baby come out your body? I mean, not physics, but like, oh my God.

And, and I was so surprised. I assumed the contractions were gonna be really right up on my ribs on the top of my belly for some reason, being very unaware of the body. And I thought it was going to be like like a, like a push there and then the baby’s just gonna come on down and slide out. So when the pain was obviously in the right place, lower, much lower I was kind of surprised by that, you know?

And so then as we were walking through the hospital, I was so self-conscious that people would see me in pain or crying or not handling, I’m not too sure a hundred percent what, the fear was and. And it was definitely coming out for me as embarrassed, like, oh my God, people are looking at me as I, I had to keep leaning against the wall to go through a contraction till we got to the labor delivery place.

We get to the labor delivery place. And I’m really starting to panic at this point cuz it’s really hit me , I’m having a baby, you know, [00:14:00] and how is that baby coming out? And this is really painful, you know? And at this point, I guess it’s just the beginning contractions. Unfortunately, what happened then was the nurse or somebody came out and said, okay, can you go into the waiting room?

Wait a sec, we’re just getting a room ready. And I was in there and there was a couple I think they were the parents of somebody having a baby, like the waiting room for that. And, it really was an embarrassment that people would, I, I guess it was vulnerable. I think from that, that I burst into tears and I’m really like getting panicked now about this poor baby.

Like it is the first thing I heard of it. And they you know, just realized I’m actually gonna get this baby out. And so, My memory, the nurse then comes out, sees me crying and , and that freaked her out a bit thinking I’m about to have a baby. They took me in. In retrospect, I should have been left to calm down because my contractions actually disappeared.

Then I freaked out , I freaked [00:15:00] out the baby. He wasn’t coming out, and so they take me through all the things. They lie me flat, they hook me up to something, and then it was this pressure. Of hurry up and have your baby. Yes. And I didn’t know how to make that happen. Yeah. He, he, he’d stopped , he’d gone back to sleep, you know, so that was the beginning of quite a traumatic experience.

And I, and I do wanna say for the record, I’m well aware that I’m a white woman having this experience, and I, I’m, I’m way more aware now. Didn’t know that the time of that privilege in itself. Yeah. In that, I, I assumed I was getting the best care. I trusted everybody, and I didn’t for one minute think that I wouldn’t have been treated properly.

Anna, it sounds like they took your pain seriously. Right? That’s their

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. They were like, oh, she’s crying, she’s red in the face, which I heard my cry, and that’s what happens. And push me through, okay, we, you know, she must be serious. She [00:16:00] must mean it. Yes. She must be serious. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

 In your defense I would say the feelings that you’re having about being freaked out about the baby coming out, I had probably when I was five months pregnant, And , it’s better to save them until the end. . It’s be, it’s like the, if you’re gonna have ’em, it’s best to just push ’em to the end, , because in five months I was like, how the fuck is this baby gonna get out of me?

It’s already too big to escape its intended route. So I don’t, yes, and I haven’t thought about C-section that wasn’t on my radar. No, wasn’t my mind. And I was just like, I have gotten myself into something that I cannot get out of. , I, I don’t know how this is gonna work. Yeah,

yeah. , I kind of was saying to my husband, okay, you need to make this go away.

You need to figure this out and get this stopped, . So I, I do not want children. . Yeah. I think

it’s a, a legitimate feeling and if I had a choice, I would’ve done it. Your. Right. Okay. Makes sense. It doesn’t, it doesn’t do you any good to have it, you know, while you’re in the Oh yeah. . [00:17:00]

No, no. It’s, it’s

not, it’s not helpful.

So you’re strapped down and in this room and what happens?

Yeah. And so it was hours and hours of being there and all of our birth plan. And what we had learned was, you know, shouldn’t lay flat, get up and move around. They. Everything sort of that I hadn’t wanted to happen happened in, in simple ones of just being completely out of control.

So I, I lost complete ability. So then everything stopped. So they break my water, , I get an epidural. I think we maybe got there mid-afternoon. He was born the next day kind of idea. So

1. Wait. When they’re, when they’re doing all these things to you, you’re saying yes, but in your heart you’re feeling like shit, this isn’t what I wanted.

Or How’s that going?

Yes. Yeah, I did. I didn’t want this, but I also felt like, oh my God, I, I, I was just constantly in a panic feeling. And I couldn’t get myself back. I couldn’t bring myself back. Even having the support of my mom and my husband, you know, we [00:18:00] hadn’t done that before. Nobody, you know, it’s the same sort of situation.

And my mom you know, wasn’t my voice there. She was my support and Yeah, I just remember everything stopping and I remember that the doctor kept coming in looking quite pissed off. She was very tired and kind of like, oh, for God’s sake, like we still haven’t had this baby. This isn’t progressing. We need to do this.

And then they’re like, oh, we need to, whatever it is that they put in the baby’s head to monitor him. Yeah. Yeah. And then this isn’t progressing. And funny enough, I actually spoke with my husband this morning cuz I was trying to say, okay, what do you remember about the book? and he remembers something that I totally can’t remember at all.

And I didn’t believe I started pushing at all. They had just said, we need to get you to have a C-section. And I was completely stunned by that point. I was scared the epidural bit that they gave me, we’d heard such awful things about this. So I was like, oh my God, I’m gonna become paralyzed.

 I was just in not a great place. And so my husband remembers that I had actually started to push and my son [00:19:00] started to come out, but his foot actually caught. Something inside. And so he wasn’t coming out and that’s what led us to the C-section, which is really freaky to me because I can’t believe I have only, I feel like I’ve only just found that out today.

It’s totally true. But yeah.

I mean, interestingly, that probably would’ve colored your view for a long time if you’d remembered that bit because Yeah. Then it is some natural thing that. Right. Yeah. Had to of forcing this next decision. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. And I felt like it was all really based on this poor, really tired doctor.

Yeah. Who was just like, oh my God, you know, this lady’s taking up a room. My shift ends. Let’s get this done. You know? So I end up having a  c-section and I was crying, I think the whole time, just devastated by that fact. And also tired. So probably tired too. Cuz I felt like it had been gone on forever.

A lovely port. Part of it was that when my husband’s a musician, not that that necessarily matters to this pit, but [00:20:00] he, he would sing to the baby when the baby was in my stomach, when my son was in my stomach, and when I felt him being pulled out. He started crying and my husband went straight to him and started humming and singing that song and he totally went quiet.

Oh, I was conscious. Yeah, I was conscious of that part and I thought, oh, okay. You know how lovely that that happened, I I never knew C-section was quite such an invasive surgery. , that was not on my birth plan, . That wasn’t gonna happen to me. You know, that must be for people who have other issues.

Anyway, so he was then birthed into the world by being pulled out. And I remember going to a room being left there a little bit. My mom came in and sat with me eventually, maybe my husband two, and then Very lucky. He just went to the breast and breastfed. And then we, I had to for c-section, stay a couple of nights in the hospital.

And that was yeah, I, I was [00:21:00] remembering that I had like I said before, as a nanny. Been around lots of little babies, helped moms, helped sort of sort that out. And there I am, totally exhausted, tired, left alone. Your spouses can’t stay in the hospital. And my baby’s crying and crying and I didn’t know what to do and I, and I called the nurse.

And the nurse comes in and literally bundles him back up and goes, you know, babies do cry. And kind of roughly handed him back to me and I was devastated. I thought when have a failure, I haven’t been able to birth him. I don’t know what’s happened to my body and I can’t move. Like I’m in a lot of pain.

And that was kind of my hospital experience. Well, it’s

interesting that you say I wasn’t able to birth them since, you know Yeah. You did birth them. I believe that. Yeah, I know. But what, so c-section doesn’t count, or what does that mean? No,

that to me at that point it didn’t. No, no. At that point, it felt like my body and I had a whole grieving process after the fact that my body had let me [00:22:00] down.

Yeah. That I could have, and I should have. and obviously everybody around you wants to tell you, but you’ve got a healthy baby. And , I get that and I get the gratitude for that, but I need to grieve whatever I need to grieve. It’s, yeah, it was there, so I did, I don’t believe it now that it’s not a birth, but I had totally believed that that was something for other.

Yeah. I dunno what other people

that that’s, yeah, that’s super interesting. And I think that’s not uncommon. I, I, for sure when I was panicked about the birth, did not have c-section on my radar. Mm-hmm. and, and I had a C-section tube. Mine was planned and it was a different thing, but Okay. But when I was thinking about the birth, all I thought about was a vaginal delivery.

That was the only kind of thing on the menu for me. The only course. . So I, so I get that idea. So what’s postpartum like with you? Feeling like the birth didn’t go the way you wanted and the

pain now? Yeah, yeah. I’ve been trying to [00:23:00] find this book and I really, I can’t find it, but somehow I had this book given to me .

 And it was about women birthing birth experiences around the world. I remember it as an amazing book, and I happened to have it right after somehow , and it really helped me to give myself permission to grieve and how many people in birth, so-called regular birth view back, but all of those things.

There is a p kind of a grieving PO process after birth that we hadn’t ever, we, I had never knew. I didn’t know. And so I with my daughter, I had stronger postpartum depression and things that I actually tried to seek help for with him, with my son. My first birth, I not so much. I did my c-section did get infected and I remember finding that really traumatic when I went to see my doctor who hadn’t been the one at the hospital when I gave birth.

And she just in. In the reception. Oh, in the room, in her surgery. Her space just kind of sound feels like poked needling or [00:24:00] something to, I know that’s too gross for people listening, but it was really hard that, that really injured me again a little bit, you know,

because, because you felt that was another failure on your body’s part or

no more that it was at No, that was actual pain that she just was like, it wouldn’t be a big deal.

But meanwhile, I still was, had my stitches and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was that kind of thing. So So this particular book and women’s birth experiences I wish I had perhaps read it beforehand. And I, again, don’t know how it appeared in my house, but that really did help with the forgiving myself too.

And I know when we went back to the baby group from the baby planning group, I was the only one who had a C-section. And , there was shame around that. Like God must. Not a good person or I must have. Yeah, it took a lot, it was a lot of stuff to do with that and then not being accepted that, that was allowed to feel that, to grieve that.

Because look you how selfish, you’ve got this lovely, yeah, yous good, healthy [00:25:00] baby boy,

right? Yeah. Yeah. You get it either way coming and going, right? Yeah. Yeah. That, that’s super unfortunate. I’m hoping. Our children, there is more leeway in what a birth looks like. Yes. Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

I’ve, yeah, I hope so too. And I think even the movement being way more obviously with my coaching of mothers, but way more this whole change around, , not society expectation. Finding your voice, trusting your intuition. Yeah. Like my intuition was, stay home. It’s not ready. But Okay. I, I’ll listen to everybody.

My intuition when I got there was, okay, why don’t you just go take a walk . Right. I didn’t listen. Yeah. I didn’t have the knowledge to listen and to check in. Yeah. Or to tell the hospital No. Okay. Nope. I don’t want certain things. Yeah. I didn’t, I know I had that voice.

Yeah. It is a unfortunate juxtaposition of a birth, which can involve so many medical things happening early enough in your [00:26:00] life that maybe you have never had those experiences before.

So you have no idea that you can talk back to to the authority of the doctors or, or, or set your own agenda in any way. And a birth is this kind of intermediate space where it doesn’t necessarily have to be medical. You’re there in case something goes wrong. But since you’re in a hospital, it feels like you’ve seated authority because that’s usually what happens in hospitals

for sure.

And there’s someone else involved. Right. It’s not really just a decision for me and my body. There’s a baby there. You know that What if I make a wrong decision? What if I totally, I

mess it up. Yeah. Making the choice for someone else is such a heavy burden, right? That you’re Yes. That, that you will end up doing a thousand times after that, but, but this one feels pretty dramatic.

I agree.

It does. It does. And the loss of control, I had no idea. That I really did like to control what my life was like and what my expectations and up until birth, I think I was able to control enough of my environment. Yep. You know that this was then a shock to more than just the birthing process.

Well,

it [00:27:00] leaves you with the impression that you have control, which, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Total

fallacy, but yes. Yeah, .

So how much space is there between your son and your daughter?

Two and a half years.

Okay, so, so does that mean that you had processed all the trauma before you got pregnant again,

or, I thought I had, yeah.

Yeah. I had really had the space and the support to sort of grief that I did. But I really wanted this vaginal birth, which is so funny to me now. What do you get a pat on your back? Whoa. You did it buzz that way, Ray. But at the time it was super important to me and I had to seek a different doctor and find actually I into, I then took the leader a bit more on interviewed doctors to say, this is what I want.

And I found an amazing doctor who I was surprised even was there at the birth that was seemed so uncommon here that he was like, I will be there. And he He fought for me cuz really he was feeling very strongly that we should, we were very quick to move. He thought it’s gonna have to be another C-section cuz she just did not wanna come out [00:28:00] after hours and hours it feels like.

 So you get pregnant easily again?

Yes.

The decided. Yeah. Is the pregnancy similar? Does it feel the same?

It I think because you then have a toddler, everything felt sort of that I, I the sickness lasted longer in this one and ti tiredness, and I had the swelling, like the ankle, the feet and, and I can’t remember what that’s called, but that kind of thing happening with her, which I didn’t have with my son.

And so that part was different. Slightly, but other than, yeah, it was pretty, it was really, I just remembered that one and I many mums, when you’ve got another before I could rest when I want to rest, and now I had somebody who’s like, let’s go to the park. Yeah, yeah.

Totally different. Yeah. and I so my oldest is 21, so we’re basically had kids around the same time.

Yeah. And I feel like in my experience, so my first one was a C-section v a c I think was less common. I’ll go back and look up the numbers for our, our time period. But I know with my doctors, they had said, you can [00:29:00] do whatever you want. And I decided to do another C-section cuz I was worried about my body had failed in a million ways, way before the C-section, which made the C-section necessary, you know?

Okay. Mm-hmm. months before mm-hmm. . So, so the c-section was like, added to the list, right? Like I wasn’t, I didn’t single that one out in entirely, but, and also maybe because I had these medical issues, I was worried about the very, very small chance of uterine rupture. . But when I told my doctors I was gonna do a C-section again and they, they said, thank God, oh my God, thank God.

Right. They were really kind of relieved. So that’s kind of consistent with your experience where it’s hard to find a doctor who will support this idea Yeah. 20 years ago. Yeah,

absolutely. Absolutely. It yeah, I remember sort of really having to seek out and ask people and try to find out, you know, that I wanted this.

And then I did start to advocate for myself. I, you know, having been through it, at least you have a bit more of a idea. Still there’s no control. We get that, but it was, yeah, [00:30:00] a different sort of setup. But for her , I remember going in, To the hospital. It was a different hospital.

 I had said, oh, I do want epidural. Right from the beginning, no, no fighting. This is time. It’s like, go for it. And my husband was there saying, oh, but she’s just like a small dosage or something, and I nearly smacked him. I went, no, just whatever you give , I want the full fact.

Well, why is he, why is he standing in the way of, he thought,

he thought that I, I would’ve wanted it to still be in the birth.

Okay. Like more of the feeling of it that he, he, he felt that maybe last time having the epidural, it stopped my body working Okay. The same way. Okay. Is what my eye, I, I think I, and so I ended up pushing a long, long time for her and they ended up having to use the vacuum thing on her head, , it’s not called a vacuum to hold her down.

And then yeah, that was funnily enough, recovering from that birth took a lot longer than the C-section one. [00:31:00] And I don’t know why, because I had two people there, but I, I had really bad, I tore really bad and then had to have those stitches and yeah, that was. From my memory,

at, at the time. Did the birth feel like a triumph?

Like now I’ve done it. Vine? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good . Well, it’s nice that I what you focus on, right? I, I know. But it’s nice that you focus on this thing and it worked out and then you felt satisfied, right? Yes. That’s nice.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That, that was yeah, very much so. And felt very blessed to have a little girl.

And then was very much. We are done. Let’s get a puppy. . .

Totally. So you suggested earlier that that birth was followed by postpartum depression or so Yeah. What, how did that look different and and what did you notice?

A lot of crying. A lot of crying.

Everything felt very overwhelming. I don’t know how in my head I was able to, but I was still working at our business and I was still going backwards [00:32:00] and forwards. And I would go to work, come back in nursing, then go back to work, and my husband would be home with the kids. And I just was, in my head, I cope.

I am one of those women. We just cope. We can manage it all, you know, and as a detriment to myself. Yeah. And so I did eventually go to see. A doctor and I c cannot recall the drug, but she really didn’t particularly listen to me, that I had just had a baby and that I had a toddler at home. And she was quick to prescribe me something.

And I, I didn’t take it. It was some very strong, addictive something or other. And So I, I kind of sorted it out a little bit by myself, if you call it sorting out. Like I just was able to let it as much as possible happen for tears and things. And the change my body was pretty big for that one.

I had gained quite a bit of weight. I felt very like moving, a bit tricky. I also felt, you know, I breastfed both of them and I [00:33:00] definitely felt for my second child that it was, it felt more of a chore because I’ve got things to do now. . Yeah. I couldn’t just sit in a door her lovely face. I was like, oh.

Breastfeeding as you, as any mom. Right. Walking around doing stuff. That kind of thing.

That sounds tricky. . So how, how long would you say the postpartum lasted?

I think a good five, six months. Okay. Yeah. After. And then

Yeah, I be, in my recollection, I was, she was about 3, 2, 3 months old when I went to the doctor, and then it was just yeah. Yes, that’s what

I would say. I, would also say probably, 20 some odd years ago, postpartum depression was so not a a thing we talked about or recognized that I can imagine your doctor not focusing on it because.

Yeah. It just wasn’t a thing for us. Right. It wasn’t That’s very

true. That was very true. And I remember her being a young doctor cuz my, my original doctor wasn’t there or something. And I just, I remember feeling kind of shamed by it a little [00:34:00] too and a little more like, Oh, well, you know, here take this.

And then, and I remember saying to them, but this is pretty addictive , and really, I probably, if she’d had just listened and made me a cup of tea and said, you know, oh God. Yeah. That is a lot. No wonder. Yeah. Yeah. Would’ve, would’ve made a difference.

Yeah. Yeah.

So you get over the postpartum period. Mm-hmm. , you get over mm-hmm. , you get over the depression and everything and you decide no more kids we’re not having sex.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I. Was completely overwhelmed with parenting re incredibly so.

And I, I came pretty cocky into the situation having been a nanny. Yeah. I know what to do and I so was not prepared for the full on. Fear worry. Am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong? Needs of a child constantly, you know, 24 7 needing you, needing something from you. I found it super, super [00:35:00] overwhelming and I was so thoroughly enmeshed in there with my children which is not a healthy place to be , you know, now, you know, for either of us.

And so yeah, that sort of changed a lot of, of my awareness of myself, I did feel incredibly goddess like , having been able to make. And bring children into the world. There was something felt in myself, my femininity, my confidence in myself, my mother bear. I didn’t know that was gonna come out so strong.

But I really believed only I could. Be the best person for them, , no one else could watch them or be with them. And I, you know, with work and running our own business and all these things, I just, I didn’t think to ask for help. I didn’t know if that was an option. I didn’t wanna be vulnerable enough.

I believed I can do it all.

That’s so interesting given that you were a nanny for someone else. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. [00:36:00] Yeah. And a very judgmental nanny. I’m a great nanny. I’m was really good with the kids and fun and playful, that kind of thing. But I really was like, Ooh, Louise, your children are been, this is because I was so hard on the moms.

Dad’s not because in my generation that’s what, you know the focus was all the moms and the martyrdom of mom, motherhood and giving it all up. And for your children, it should all be about the children. And I sit sarcastically now because to me that is one of the biggest misconceptions from birth right through to raising them.

That that’s it. It shouldn’t all be about the children. We, we parenthood motherhood. From, I can’t talk about fatherhood is all about me actually .

So I, this, this feels like a bit of the magic. Why don’t you lay some yogi parenting coach on US and let us know what you would’ve done for younger Anya.

What, what could you have told younger Anya to make this road easier?

Yeah, great question.,[00:37:00] first of all, really. Bring kindness into the picture. Kindness for myself, I would have told myself that it’s okay to ask for help. You do not have to do it all.

And the yogi side would be, you know, how about you just dance still a minute before you respond, before all those emotions that you know, you are like a emotional coach to your child, right? As they’re growing up. And I would take it all on and I’d feel it so much in my body and my body would carry theirs and mine and my husbands and societies and lives and , sometimes just pausing and taking a big breath.

Can really change how you respond to something. You know, how really seeking help and support and asking for it is actually a superpower rather than not. And then the real underlying part is our kids are super, super wise. They do not need us to figure it all out for them.[00:38:00] , we have our wisdom, but they, if we are trusting our intuition, if we’re being present in our body, if we are using that beautiful life force of breath in different ways to bring us to this present moment, you see things differently.

I’m running ahead, busy, busy, busy the whole time, right between work and this. And I can cope and I can do, and my own personal self was completely neglected. I didn’t know who I was anymore. I was so meshed in, or I’m his mom and his, her mom and these kind of things and kind of realizing their wisdom of their own life experiences actually has nothing to do with me.

So lean back. That’s a whole .

Oh, no, that’s, that’s awesome advice. So how did you, how did you get from the enmeshed to the person you are right now who can give that advice.

Right. Well, so when I was pregnant with my daughter, I, started some yoga classes.

I think I had maybe taken some of it before. I wasn’t, I really actually didn’t believe in it. I [00:39:00] didn’t really like it. I didn’t like the idea of touching my toes. I certainly did not like the idea of sitting with myself and being quiet, all things which I now know are vital. And so I had started taking some yoga classes.

I think at that point, maybe they were both in school or preschool. I think my daughter maybe. So three, five, and the transformation for me was super slow, but it started to be all the stuff that I did off the mat using the skills that I learned on the mat, right? So the present where moment awareness, right?

Which obviously as a yogi for yourself, you, you, there are moments on your mat, doesn’t happen the whole time, but there’s moments that you are fully present in the breath. Mind is clear, right? Yeah. So you give yourself a chance. Be still. And so I just started, I was going, I think every Thursday morning for about six years or so, I, I, I would go to this yoga class and it was the feeling afterwards and the feeling of being so much more aware of my own body, [00:40:00] how my natural stance was holding my breath.

Yeah. Yep. Doesn’t serve you. My natural stance was full on anxiety and tension. I never knew that. It’s like that had to peel back the layers of suddenly, you know, you, I’d be like, feel like I’m relaxing. I’m making cup of tea or cutting vegetables and my shoulders are up here. My jaw is tense. And I had no idea.

So like I said, from before, I was really ahead walking around . Yeah. With this body underneath that I had no, no connection to. And I grew through my yoga. On my yoga mat to really like myself again and really kind of love or more in love with myself as imperfectly as I am, as, yeah, you know, all bits of me, where my mind goes, how I am, what I, what matters.

 I didn’t realize I was an empath at all. I, meanwhile, I’ve been soaking up people’s energy since babyhood, of my own, right? Yeah. And so that was all the, the [00:41:00] tie in and then I realized, How simple but difficult it is to be fully present first for me and then for my children. Yeah. And that was a big change around in how I parented.

Yeah. It is a,

it is an amazing transformation. And I came to yoga much later than you did, and I was an athletic person before then. Mm-hmm. . And for me, the most shocking thing was to coordinate breath with movement. Yeah. In that really controlled way, which I had never done before. And I had a really hard time doing, I was really surprised that it was so hard to do that.

Yeah. But it is, you know, the breath work is so powerful and it is this dual connection between mind and body where body can dramatically affect mind. And you, you don’t really think of it. That too. You don’t really think of it as a two-way Yeah, right. What

it’s, yeah, absolutely. And I think going back to sort of the yogi part of things [00:42:00] the more I liked myself, the more I showed up as a kind of mom.

Right. Yeah. The more I could be when I say parenting’s more about me, I bring the energy into the room. I come in as a bitch. Nobody’s really being very nice. Right? Yeah. And, and I’m not talking about ever perfection. I’m so far imperfect, beyond imperfect beyond imperfect.

That realizing that I actually threw my own energy. Can change the whole situation. How I respond to something changes the whole situation. You know? Being caught up in like, kids are really annoying and they’re full on and they trigger you in all kind of ways, all the way from little babies who don’t wanna sleep all the way up to teens, slamming doors, and, you know Their life choices.

It’s a continual learning, but it all starts with me. That was a one of the biggest changes I think of the, that yoga really was the catalyst for me, for that. Yoga was my therapy, I guess, to know myself more, to realize, you [00:43:00] know a certain twist or a certain thing. I, I could just be bursting into tears and crying and I wouldn’t know why, but my body was just like, oh, thank God.

She’s just finally letting this bit go, letting this bit go.

Yeah. That, that’s amazing. And becoming embodied is a, is a huge deal, right? That has a dramatic effect on who you are in the world and how you show up. And I agree with you that it is it’s easy to be overwhelmed as a parent, right? .

There’s lot lots going on. And I don’t know , how universal this characteristic is, but to take on the emotional emotional content of your kids’ moods Hmm. Feels very natural to me. Feels like a, the thing that you would do. Yeah. But that’s a, that’s a tricky thing to do, and then you’re not in your own body and then you.

You know, you’re

reactive. Yeah. You’re absolutely, absolutely. And, and, you know, having the compassion too. I mean the, the yoga I studied was called yoga, and that’s what I eventually went and had my teacher training in. And that’s [00:44:00] really my embodiment is really about self-compassion, compassionate self-acceptance, and.

I would imagine practically everybody, I’ll speak just for myself though. There’s a feeling of unworthiness that comes with us from childhood. Yep. Through divorce. I’m, I’m very aware of that. Just having parents, two people, like nobody, we are all figuring it out. . Yeah. So they’re having compassion from them and compassion for myself and, you know, being able to say, sorry I messed up and being.

Say, okay guys, I’m outta here, I need to time out. You, I just can’t handle the emotions and I f I even to this day, I find that the hardest part to keep myself separate from them. Not detached Yeah. But separate that. Yeah. You know, feel filling my own energy field, working on rooting down. I’m all in my head and I’m stressed and, and I realize I, in honoring of myself, I, I can’t cope with a lot in one time.

Now I’m a pretty strong person now and there’s lots going on in my life and that obviously loads of ups and downs and [00:45:00] huge, big things. But I really, for me, I need to keep coming back to me in order to be able to sort out a problem, deal with the death, deal with, you know, money issues, deal with marriage, you know, and, and for that, it’s the honoring of myself again.

That has to be the change. I can’t change who, who this child is. Yeah, I can do my damnest, but really if I see them in the light of love, just on their own journey and their own experience, I felt for me, a huge weight lifted. Like I don’t actually have to figure it all out.

Very subtle. I don’t have to figure it all out for everybody. You know? Yeah. I, I actually, they, they, they can figure that out for themselves, and the best I can do is lead by example. Yeah. You know, and again, not imperfect ways, like if I don’t, if everybody feels like they’re being really unkind, okay, hey, have a look at yourself, or I just realized I snapped at them and shouted at them and I’m not being [00:46:00] very kind.

Right. It’s that kind of constant self-awareness and reflection.

Yeah, that, that sounds. Like an amazing journey and an amazing thing that you’re giving to other people through your coaching business. Thank you. So how can people find you? You’re on the

web. Yeah. My biggest place that I hang out and offer.

, different solutions and things would be on Instagram as Yogi Parenting coach. Yeah, that’s kind of the main one. I do have a website and things, but I’m just not very active. I need all those things, sourced it out sometime. But I, I like Instagram, so that’s really where you’ll see most of me.

And you can book with me and you can, I wrote a book about parenting from this place, how yoga changed the way I parent and get that on Amazon. So yeah.

Wow. That’s super cool. Congratulations and thank you so much for sharing your story. That’s amazing. Well, thank you

very much. I’m glad we collected This is You too.

I think what you’re doing is an awesome thing because we really need real authentic stories out there so that the [00:47:00] next generation and the next generation just able to speak about it without sugarcoating it.

Right? Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.