Author: paulette_kamenecka

Hi, Thanks so much for coming on the show, can you tell us your name and where you’re from.

Gill: Hi. Yes, sure. So my name is Gill Castle , and I’m from Northern England on the border with Scotland 

P: nice, lovely How many kids do you have?

G:  I have one I have some who, a little boy who’s nine and a half. 

P: Oh wow, that’s a fun age, 

G: yeah yes I’m just striking out getting out, or wanting more independence. So, yeah.

P: So Gill before you had kids I’m imagining that you had some ideas about what you thought pregnancy, like, what did you imagine it would be like,

G: oh, a piece of cake. You know, I was fit and healthy, I’m not an ill person, so I don’t do illness, I don’t get ill, you know, don’t really get colds, never had chest infection, you know, there was just, yeah, Well, I was going to get pregnant, and I was going home, baby. And that would be it really. Pretty much.

P: Okay, well it’s a good way to go into it, I guess, as good as any. And did you get pregnant easily.

G: Yeah, I did actually didn’t take long at all. Basically, that we tried for a couple of months, My husband worked away. He then went away and came back and we got pregnant, and literally the day came up. 

P: Oh wow, well done. 

G: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and the reason I know this is, it was some sort of freak chance because my period was due. Three days later, and it never came. And I mean I don’t really know how that even works but the child has definitely his. 

P: Did you find out with like a home kit?

G: Yeah, we just did a, just from the supermarket. 

P: Yeah, 

G: and get the whole pee on the stick thing and there we are, the two lines I can’t even remember now….if it’s two lines or cross or whatever. But anyway, I was pregnant. And, yeah, and I remember actually my husband not being sort of I mean he didn’t like jump up and down. He’s not a jumping up and down kind of person anyway. Yeah, but he, he was just like, alright, well yeah. 

P: Taking it in stride. Okay. 

G: But it’s still quite exciting. Yeah, yeah.

P: I’m assuming because you’re in England, you plan to go with a midwife.

G: Yeah, well, in in England. Yeah, well, Yeah, we have midwives, but you don’t, well you’re meant to have a dedicated midwife throughout your pregnancy, but not necessarily they’re not the ones that are at the birth but yeah, it was just going to be midwife. I was going to be an uncomplicated pregnancy so I wasn’t high risk or anything like that, but there was nothing really, you know, to cause alarm, to be honest for pregnancy, so yeah that was just the plan just to be with a midwife and just give birth in the, in the hospital in the city,

P: was the pregnancy easy? did you have, you know morning sickness? or 

G: no not the only thing I did have which I would actually rather have morning sickness, none whatsoever…because I had a couple of bleeds, which obviously is really, really stressful, so I had a couple of early scans, but they were always absolutely fine. But yeah I mean I didn’t get heartburn. I didn’t get stretch marks, mind you, that’s probably because I, I gave birth six weeks early so I missed out on that final expansion of the stomach. But yeah, no I was really, really fortunate I was, I was absolutely fine I’ll continue walking. I continued working as well, it was no problem, 

P: and then, you said you delivered early so, so what happened there?

G: So what happened was I was a police officer at the time, and I, we were working seven days on, and then four days off. I just finished my seven day set, and I was woken up the following morning. And it was exactly seven o’clock in the morning because I remember looking at the clock woken up at seven o’clock in the morning with a really sharp pain, which I now know was a contraction. And this was six weeks before my due date, so I just had this really sharp pain, then it stopped, and I went to the toilet and there was like just a little bit of pink on my underwear. And I thought, it’s a bit weird but you know it wasn’t in any, any discomfort like the pain it just disappeared. 

P: Yeah, 

G: so I left it for another hour and a half and then I had another contraction. But again, you know it wasn’t, you know it’s just like a quick kick in the stomach isn’t it, so I just thought, oh, oh. Whoa, that was strange, so I rang the early pregnancy unit at the local hospital and explained what had happened, and they said oh right, you’ve had a show, which is what the pink discharge was in my underwear

P: Show is part of the mucus plug blocking the cervix that starts to come away when labor is starting. It’s liberation from your vagina means that the cervix is starting to open. It might contain a little blood, which is why it’s pink

G: And yeah, you better just put on get checked out but you know we’re not worried. Just just come along and I told my husband, who said, Oh, but I’m about to go and get my haircut. No you’re not. We’re going to the hospital. There was a pause as we  both looked at each other and then he was like, right okay we’re gonna go. Yeah, we took all the hospital bags off we went. And I was put under observation, and they said oh you know, you might be having contractions but they were really, really far apart, you know, an hour and a half apart. They said, You know, we’re just going to monitor you. We’ll see what happens if you progress, but what it might be, is false labor. 

P: Yeah, 

G: so there’s my order was written just completely stop, and then you’ll go home. Yeah, so I sort of had this in my head that this was all just fake it was all false wasn’t gonna go anywhere . That was our that was, I was fine, really, was doing my knitting, and I wasn’t really, I don’t know why I wasn’t bothered it just wasn’t, I wasn’t concerned. 

P: I have to say I’m impressed that you brought your husband along I would definitely have dismissed my husband thinking like to try to make it so.

G: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, number one, I don’t like driving into the city anyway, and the parking at that particular hospital was an absolute nightmare. So, and it was sheer, good luck and good fortune that he was there. Yeah, cause he works away, and he was actually due to be back until two weeks. But I think the week before the baby was due. So he just happened to have come home, and he was due to leave again a couple of days later. So, I mean if this had happened a week later he would have been on a boat in the middle of the North Sea, unable to come back. So yeah, that was one of the lucky things, not many lucky things but that was one of the,

P: so you’re at the hospital, and how long are you there and they’re monitoring and like what what’s going on.

G: So we got there about nine o’clock in the morning, I lost track of time really. All I know is that by, say, two o’clock in the afternoon, I was in established labor, and obviously the contractions have been getting closer and closer together. And because I was in early labor they needed to monitor the baby, so they had lots and lots of wires and things were strapped to my stomach and I couldn’t get off the bed I couldn’t walk around, couldn’t get myself comfortable at all. And when I was really in full swing of labor, I remember saying to the midwife. Oh is this. Oh, is this actually labor. Am I having a baby today, and she said oh yeah you’re very much having a baby, you’re going to have a baby really quite soon. And I was like, Oh, I just couldn’t. I couldn’t quite get my head around what she was saying, so so so yeah that’s when I sort of realized mid afternoon that I was on my way to have a baby, 

P: That is kind of shocking especially the way they treated you when you came. 

G: well yeah you know just, I mean they did sort of laugh in the delivery, delivery suite and my husband did as well because to them it was obviously really really big but I was, I just kept saying, oh this console and I did sort of say, oh thank God for that because I’m not coming back in six weeks time and do this all over again. Better be a baby or the other. All right, so by about four o’clock in the afternoon. That’s when I was in, I was in the grip of it all, but, as in the UK it’s probably similar in America but in the UK we have the opportunity to write a birth plan. 

P: Yeah. 

G: Which is nonsense most of the time isn’t actually level, level gets followed but now for one reason or another, and I’ve forgotten. I’ve written in my birth plan that I didn’t want to have any pain relief until I asked for it. 

P: Yeah, 

G: because I thought well I’m going to be the best judge of what I need, and I don’t want people given it to me too early. I want to be honest for as long as possible because then I’ll get the maximum benefit from the pain relief…I’d forgotten that said that. So then I was thinking well I don’t want to ask for pain relief, because they’re not giving me any, so they mustn’t think that I’m fat enough yet to be given pain. So I was laboring away but I’ve seen no gas and air with absolutely nothing until eventually I said you know, pain relief yet, and we’ve been waiting for you to ask it’s on your birth, no it’s not that you are like, Oh my gosh. Anyways, well you can try gas and air but we don’t think, you know, I think you’re a bit far gone for that and they were right. 

P: Yeah, 

G: I took a bit of gas and air and I was like well, for quite a lot, basically said This is rubbish. But then that’s when it all started to get a bit complicated because, obviously, you will know this but when a baby’s born, it actually has to help itself out with a birthing canal, at the end. 

P: Yeah, 

G: but because was only four pounds seven and he was tiny, he, he got tired, was exhausted, and he was back to back as well. So, his heart rate dropped, and then all hell broke loose. So I just remember all of us in numbers there’s loads and loads of people there, and they said right we’re gonna have to get you into theater give you an epidural and and get this baby out. You know, they said, no time to do a C section or anything like that we’re just gonna have to get the baby out. But they didn’t really say that quite as explicitly as that. I just remember lots and lots of people, and just the conversation of right we’re going to theater. And, you know, we’re going to get the baby out

P: that’s super interesting to me that they said like, this is an emergency. There’s no time for a C section, because I would imagine that vaginal delivery would take longer. 

So I brought this question to a doctor. Today I’m lucky enough to talk to Dr Matityahu who’s an amazing OB and the co founder and executive director of beyond fistula, an organization in Kenya, that helps women who have encountered fistulas in childbirth. Her organization helps women heal and rebuild their lives working out social and economic issues that these injuries can create, and she actually introduced me to Gill–an introduction I’m entirely grateful for. Hi Dr Matityahu thanks so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Matityahu: Thanks for inviting me again I love speaking with you and I love everything that you’re doing to inspire other women so thank you.

P: So one question I have is Gill talks about how they say, we’re gonna have to get this baby out and there’s no time for a C section isn’t C section the fastest way to get the baby out.

Dr. M: I mean it’s either C section or vacuum or some people will still do forceps. If the head is crowning and you can, and it’s right there and you can just sort of put a vacuum on the head and gently pull or put forceps on and gently pull and get the head out within a minute or two, then you would do that if the baby’s head is a little bit higher up and there’s no way to immediately encourage delivery and C section.

G: Well, you would have thought, you know, but they, I mean, considering that I went into theater, and it took three attempts for me to be given the epidural. 

P: Yeah, 

G: because they couldn’t get it in my spine. And I do remember being absolutely petrified at that point because of course they say you know this is really sharp needle, you have to keep as still as possible, because it’s going in your spine. And, I mean, there I am sitting on the bed holding a pillow to try and keep them but having contractions and trying to keep reliving, I mean, so, I mean it took them three attempts and then they finally got it in as soon as I got the epidural in. I Do you remember how she lined back and sort of going, Oh, right. Hi everyone. Hi, nice to meet you, sorry I’m not normally that awful, I’m horrible. I’m really sorry and, and I looked at my husband and I said oh have you been here all the time. And he said he was absolutely gutted, because he was starving, he said, You mean I could actually let you go and got something to eat,

P: so they get it in and then do you have a long period of pushing or are you already ready to push or how’s that all work.

G: To be honest, I don’t remember any pushing at all. I don’t remember anyone saying anything about pushing to me. I remember literally just lying back and saying hi everyone, and then they fiddled about, and then they brought out this baby. 

P: Oh wow, 

G: literally, literally, you know, and I remember they sort of reduced this white mucousy covered while baby, literally in front of us, and I was a bit like oh and then he was whisked away straight away to where they put them on the side and the works on him. We heard him crying, so I wasn’t, I wasn’t that concerned, and they had said you know, we’ve, we’ve given you the steroid injection, because the lungs are the last thing to develop in a baby so we’ve given you that to his lungs when he was grunting which is fairly common with newborn premature babies. Anyway, he was taken off to special care and that’s when I was stitched up and really that’s when the catastrophe happened

P: they take the baby and he’s off. You said he’s like four pounds seven ounces, something like that, yeah, yeah, that’s a pretty decent size for thirty four weeks

G: Yeah, that’s right 

P:  the person’s dishing up is an OB. Yes, she was a consultant, and she’s the one who told you that situation.

G: Yeah, so, so they said, you you’ve sustained a tear. And so while you obviously the epidural is still working. We will, she’s going to repay it. So you just lie there and she’s going to repay you. And, you know, don’t worry about it. You’ll then go back on the ward and be reunited with your baby. But because I couldn’t feel anything, because I’d had the epidural, I really had nothing to worry about. I mean, I was kind of aware that women could tear giving birth but I didn’t really know anything about I didn’t really understanding, to be honest, the significance of having a tear on the extremity of the tear, of course. 

P: How common is tearing?

Dr. M: tearing is pretty common, we grade the tears by numbers so a first degree tear would be a really superficial tiny tear in like the vaginal mucosa or some of the tissue around the entrance of the vagina. A second degree tear is probably the most common, and it’s sort of through the vaginal mucosa and and through some of the muscle, and a third degree tear and they call it a partial or a full third degree tear is a tear that goes through the vaginal tissue and into the sphincter around that the rectal sphincter, so it’s a tear that’s either a partial sphincter tear or a complete sphincter tear is a third degree sort of partial third degree or full third degree, and then a fourth degree tear is a tear that goes, again, through the vaginal mucosa of vaginal muscle through the rectal sphincter, and in addition, through the rectal mucosa so it’s a tear that goes right through and into the rectum, that’s a fourth degree tear those are much less common,

P: to put some numbers to this discussion, according to the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in England, up to nine in every 10 First time mothers who have a vaginal birth will experience some sort of tear graze or a episiotomy for third and fourth three tears the numbers are a little different. They say six out of 100 or 6% of first time mothers experienced this

G: yeah, I just wasn’t worried cuz I didn’t feel anything so far as I’m concerned, I was just like well this is normal. I want a baby, I’ve torn she’s gonna stitch me up and I’m gonna go back on the ward and meet my baby, and it’ll all be fine. 

P: It sounds like she didn’t present it as something to be worried about. 

G: Well no, that’s because she didn’t think it was at the time which we found out in the nature investigation that she, she completely misdiagnosed me

P: so as far as you know she stitches you up and you go back to the ward 

G: yeah, yep so she says, and, and they said Ryan, you’re going to go back on the wards and all you need to do is you just need to keep the wound clean. So even though it’ll be painful, you must, You know, have a shower, keep it clean and dry. Don’t avoid having a bath or shower or anything like that. And I thought well that’s absolutely fine that’s, you know, that makes sense to me. If I can do that no problem at all. So once the epidural wore off. And we finally met our baby at two o’clock in the morning, he was born at 20 past eight at night finally met him on the ward at two o’clock in the morning. And that was very surreal because the ward was really dark, and we were terribly British about the whole thing, so we didn’t want to make any noise. We didn’t want to disturb anybody, so we didn’t even want to turn on the light, so we I mean this is ridiculous. So we turned on our mobile phone cameras are the lights that we can actually look at our child for the this time so I mean a lot of all of that you know obviously affected the bond that I had, because the very first time I saw him he was twisting my face for literally two seconds, and he was away. Then when we met him, we weren’t allowed to, we should have done really, really well I think about it with some of the other people on the ward. It should just put the light on, but we didn’t and I think, you know that that impacted as well, the emotion you felt able to feel. 

P: Yeah, why did they have him  for so long. What were they doing for all those hours?

G:  they didn’t have the staff to discharge special care. 

P: Okay, 

G: so there wasn’t actually any need for him to be in there, because after he’d been in there for about two hours or something, they said right yeah he’s absolutely fine, he’s ready to come on to the world, but he needed to presume he must have needed to be signed off by a consultant or, or the registrar or somebody must have needed to sign him off the ward and they didn’t have that person, so that’s why we had to wait so long, not because they were doing anything significant.

P: Okay good, so he’s totally fine. 

G: He was absolutely fine. 

P: But this process  messes with your ability to bond and, 

G: yeah, yeah, 

P: I am totally sympathetic to the impulse to be quiet for other people it’s, it’s hard to have such a, an emotional experience in a packed house.

G: Yeah, and in a dark house when you know, people see things, and you just think, you know don’t want to, and I’m sure you know when I look back I think noone would have cared. 

P: Yeah. 

G: Expressing joy over seeing their baby you know but you just saw yeah we never had a baby so we were just still in the motions of not having a baby, you know. So, we were on the ward and it was really shocking, actually, because my husband was a Royal Marine. When we were on the ward we were looking at all these women, who was literally staggering about holding onto walls, grimacing with pain, barely able to walk some of them, and Chris my husband looked at me and he said you know Gill, this reminds me of a field hospital. 

P: Wow. 

G: Yeah, and it really does a study, and never envisaged some ward looking like this normally when you see women with babies they sit at home on a property, or they go along the street with a prom or buggy or pushchair. You don’t see them when they’ve literally just had a baby, but in a way, made me feel a bit better, because all right well they’re just as much pain as me so that kind of normalized it a bit. 

P: Yeah, 

G: but at the same time, couldn’t sit properly. I could barely walk. It was really painful but that’s the kind of person I am I just thought right well I’m not going to get beaten by this you know all I’ve done is have a baby. Loads of people. Loads of people have tears, so I’m not going to make any sort of complaint or fuss, I’m just going to get on with it. So that’s what I tried to do, but as the day’s progressed, the pain just got worse and worse and worse, and the very next day after having the baby. I noticed like a brownie discharge on my underwear. And I said to the midwife. I’ve got like brownie sort of discharge on my underwear not much but there’s obviously something interesting oh no that’s fine. No, that’s fine, that’s just sort of the tissues all fixing together that’s just a bit of mucus and you know it’s nothing to worry about. 

P: Yeah, 

G: so I was like all right okay and then I thought well I know when I’ve like fallen over in the playground and scraped my knee. You do get a jelly mucousy type stuff on your knee when it’s healing. So I just thought well maybe, maybe that’s what it’s from

G: Gill talks about brownie discharge on her underwear, should that have been a red flag.

Dr. M: I think that if someone just said I have some brown stain, you know, when blood is exposed to air and is oxidized and dries, like, it turns brown and so if there’s just a little bit of brown staining. You know, I’m guessing that a midwife might think, oh it’s just some old, blood that sort of oxidized and dried on your underwear,

G: the pain just started to get worse and worse and worse, and after about two days, I started getting poo in my pants. And I thought, Well, no, but I wasn’t really because I wasn’t very much, I couldn’t really work out where it was coming from because it didn’t really seem to be coming from the normal area. 

P: Yeah, 

G: and then it was getting to the point that every time I went to the toilet. I was pulling the emergency buzzer, because I was in so much pain I was frightened to go to the toilet. 

P: Yeah, 

G: I have to add something that the toilet is going to go rific and, and then I clearly remember, after three days, I was in so much pain and so much distress, I had a shower. And I remember I mean this is, you know so mortified when you think about it, this is what you do when you’re in it. And then so I was in the shower. I could not work out where this poo was coming from and basically I couldn’t work out what was part of my body and what wasn’t. And a midwife came past, and I was completely naked in the shower and I bent over and showed her my backside and said, right, is my bottom in the right place. I said I can’t, I can’t I can’t work out what’s happening I said there’s poop coming out all over the place and I’m just, I can’t work out why my bottom is, and she’s looked at me like I was completely insane, and said, that’s absolutely fine, it’s fine. Just finish your shower, go back to your bed, sort yourself out, you know so yourself.

P: Okay, I want to stop you right there. Now looking back, do we think she should have known that something was off.

G: Oh 100% I mean, I remember being hysterical in the shower, you know and I clearly remember saying, I don’t know why I’m about this I don’t understand what’s happening to my body like where is it all coming from, can you just show me where it is. 

P: you don’t feel like the normal bowel movement. 

G: No, no. Yeah, I always remember that she just sort of like she didn’t examine me obviously she didn’t come close to me she obviously just glance and said, Oh, you’re absolutely fine basically make it out that was completely mad. And I actually thought I was mad because I knew that there was something seriously wrong. But I couldn’t, I couldn’t get anybody to understand what I was saying.

P: So, I have to tell you as an objective third party that I find this so frustrating to hear I’m so desperately frustrated on your behalf that you’re not being taken seriously. 

And then Gill tells the story about the poo coming out in the shower, and she doesn’t know what’s going on with her body, is this a red flag.

Dr. M: If anyone were to say, me or I’m sure one of my colleagues, like I feel like there’s poop coming down my leg in the shower, I think we would say we need to examine you like why would that be coming out, best case scenario I think maybe you have diarrhea and you’re just, you know, things are in pain down there and your rectum sphincter is relaxed, but even with the benefit of the doubt, I would wonder like why would you have stool running down your leg that is not a complaint that is typically heard at all. So, so I think that would make me immediately worry and say wow I really need to investigate like why is there stool, coming down your legs and that is not normal.

G: so then I went back to my bed, staggered back to the bed, and by this point, I could smell poo. I remember I was visited by a friend who’d come to see me and the baby, and she’d said, it smells like poo in here….And I was like oh, it’s the baby, and then I think well that’s not like that’s not long. She can smell something. Yeah, so I said to the midwife. On the evening shift I said, I think I’ve got poop in my pants. She was like really, and I said yes. And I said, I definitely have, and I said I don’t know what’s going on because I didn’t have this couple of days ago. So the way she looked and she was like oh I can’t see anything. And I said, But I’m in so much pain, I said it doesn’t seem to be getting any better. And she said what everyone had said to me repeatedly whenever I’d said how much pain I was in, they just said, Oh, the heat that you can feel around your body around the area that is just the tissues knitting together, and they are producing heat when they’re getting back together. I was sort of thinking, well, well okay, that makes sense, but I’ve had cuts in the past, and they haven’t got this hot, I mean I knew it was a big would but all the same, you know, it just doesn’t make any sense but that’s what everyone just kept saying to me, so I told this to the midwife been through my pants and she looked at me and she said no I can’t do anything. So the next morning, there was a change of midwives. And then the next midwife came on and she said oh you know how you said oh well I’m absolutely fantastic apart from the fact that I’m poo in my pants, you know, apart from that I’m great. And you know what you’re talking about. I said, there’s not be mentioned on her, Handover. Is this not on my notes, shut down and are we talking about what I was like, right. Last night I told the midwife that I poo in my pants. That my friend is about to come in the room. That’s the situation. And she said oh so she had a look and again so it looks like it’s healing fine. Yeah, no, You’re okay. So again, it was like, well this is just, like, completely mad like two people examine me now I would say that there’s not a problem, and everything’s healing. Yet, I know I’m pooing my

P: two midwives check her on successive days and say she’s healing, even though we know ex post there is a problem. Why does it look like there isn’t a problem.

Dr. M: So, you have to do a really good exam to see what’s happening underneath your repair. 

P: Okay, 

Dr. M: so if you’re just looking into the vagina, and you see your suture line that the vaginal mucosa is sort of closed up on top, you’re not able to look at what’s underneath that and so it’s the layer underneath. That’s not closed until unless you do a rectal exam or put your finger into the rectum and see, do I feel an opening do I feel a defect or is it completely closed off and smooth. You don’t do a rectal exam you don’t know what’s happening underneath. You have No idea. So I mean, it looks nice on top, it’s like if you had a bullet wound in your abdomen, and I just put a shirt over it and you’re like yeah that’s sure it looks great. 

P: Yeah, 

Dr. M: so like the top layer looks great, everything’s closed off and smooth and looking fine but underneath I’m hemorrhaging. so it’s sort of like it’s the deep layers that have to be evaluated and if you’re just looking and you’re like, everything looks good on top. That’s not telling you the whole story.

G: later that day I was trying to work on a project but by this point, I couldn’t really walk. Essentially I collapsed in the corridor. And I was found by a male midwife. And he said, you know, you’re right and I said no, I can’t do this anymore. I said I literally can’t do this. And I remember like my voice was really weak. And I was just saying, I can’t, I can’t, I just can’t, I can’t do this. It’s so painful, I just can’t cope anymore. And you know what he said to me, said oh, maybe it’s your perception of the pain. 

P: Oh my god.

G:  Yeah, and I thought, are you having a laugh, like, oh so I’m a wimp. Yeah, part of it died at that point because I just thought right. Oh my god, I, you know, literally just collapse in the corridor. I’ve said to this man that I cannot cope and he said to me, maybe it’s your perception of the pain. And then he said oh, what would you like me to tell you, and I was like no I’m fine thank you. I don’t want you coming anywhere near me. 

P: No kidding. Oh my god, 

G: you know, and then I just thought that when I am just going to go back to my bed, and I’m going to die because no one’s taking notice of me and be seriously wrong. And while you can probably guess, you know, I’m quite articulate, I’m more than capable of sticking up for myself, I was a police officer for heaven’s sake, but I was in so much pain and I was so weak I wasn’t able to speak up for myself but I could I didn’t have the energy to fight with people to be seen. 

P: Yeah, I mean, this is, this is the tricky thing you learn in medical contexts that you have to be your own advocate, but it’s wildly unfair to make a woman who’s just given birth, be her own advocate. Yeah, you’re filled with hormones, you’ve just basically run a marathon by giving birth, these two things don’t go together.

G: Exactly, exactly and my body was fighting too much to give me the energy to then fight for support and help. So that’s my bed but obviously this midwife must of thought Better go and see what’s going on. So another female midwife came and said oh you know I hear you, collapsed, and I examined you. Yes, if you can, but I’m sure like everybody else you’ll say there’s nothing wrong with me. This is after now five days. And she tries to examine me, and I remember she basically put her hand toward where the tear was. And then she immediately brought her hand back And she said, Wow, I couldn’t even get near to it I could feel the heat coming off you, I was basically hovering over that and she said and you, you jumped back on the bed. Yeah, and I was like well yeah I mean an awful lot of pain. That’s right. We need to get you examined by the consultants, the consultants gynecologist. 

P: Yeah,

G:  came down to examine me, and they actually had to give me gas in it, because they couldn’t get anywhere near me. And the consultants, really look for that long to be honest and she said, right, you’ve got a fourth degree tear, which has been missed. And she says you’ve got an enormous abscess around the tear, she said that’s now burst, and you’ve also got a rectal vaginal fistula, which is where you have a hole between the lining of the rectum and the vagina. You’ve got poo coming out of the vagina. And, and I remember actually being really relieved. I was like, you know, thank God for that. Like there actually is something seriously wrong with me. 

P: Yeah, 

G: so she said right, well, I’ll have to get the colorectal surgeon to come down and see what he thinks. But she said I think the only way out of this is to give you a stoma, so that we can divert the feces away from this area, give a chance for everything to heal, we can repair you reverse the stoma. And you know, get on with your life. 

P: what’s a stoma is an opening on the abdomen, that can be connected to either your digestive or urinary system to allow waste to be diverted out of your body. If it can’t move through your rectum bowel movements leave your body through the stoma and are collected in a pouch that you empty out, it can be temporary or permanent. There are a number of different reasons to get a stoma, like Crohn’s disease or bowel cancer or for obstetric reasons.

G: I was just relieved to be honest if it said to me, we’re going to chop off both legs I would have said I don’t care. That takes away the pain to do a heavier light so they went off and I burst into tears obviously and ushered off into it, I finally got my own private room. Do you remember joking and saying, Gosh, what you have to do to get up. So yeah, so then that was the next the next stage really but, I mean we’re only talking about less than a week after having a baby, the fistula tract was actually septic. And that was septic for a year and how on earth I didn’t get sepsis. During those five, you know. Well, I think I must have been pretty close, because I, you know, I just remember just being so weak and unable to function. 

P: When they examined you and finally sort of validated everything that you had been describing for days. Did you understand exactly what they were saying like what the process was and what they’re going to do

G: well by sheer good fortune. One of my friends who I met in the city that I was living in had had a stoma, in the last year, but she had a different one she had had an ileostomy, which is the small intestine, and I was going to get a colostomy. So as I was like right, I do actually have a vague idea of what this kind of entails because I’m remember talking to her about a bags and all this sort of thing. I did have like a little bit of an idea but at the same time it was just too much information really 

P: Yeah, 

G: I mean I knew that a fourth degree tear was bad. I knew a fourth degree tear was like the worst that you could possibly get. Y

P: Yeah, yeah,

G:  I mean obviously I wasn’t particularly overjoyed about getting the stoma but you know I just thought, you know it’s only for 12 weeks. Yeah, only for 12 weeks. So this is fine 12 weeks 12 weeks, and then look at all the life.

P: Yeah, and it sounds like a fix. Right, so,

G: yeah, it was just, oh, you know, that’s fine and I thought well you know my friends you had a stoma and, yeah, she’s another great time with it but I thought well, it doesn’t matter, because it’s only 12 weeks. And I was just relieved. I was just so relieved because right we have a solution to my problem, and I’m going to get fixed and I’m going to get better and I’m not going to have this infection, and people are actually going to start taking me seriously.  And they did. 

P: Yeah and it is so and so, this whole time. Is the baby with you or how’s it going are you breastfeeding.

G: Well I tried to breastfeed, but obviously, because he was premature and like obviously my body just was too busy. 

P: Yeah, 

G: I didn’t have any milk supply. 

P: Yeah, 

G: and really, I don’t know what it’s like in America but in the UK, they’re pretty obsessed with breastfeeding. 

P: Yeah, same here

G:  which I can understand why I know that it is best for the baby. Understand this, but because I wasn’t very well, I didn’t have any sort of energy to to argue with him and say that I wanted to do it in any different way so they I mean, they were trying their best to give me the best chance to be able to breastfeed, but you know I mean I was expressing, and I was breastfeeding. I was like struggling to survive. 

P: Yeah, 

G: and I didn’t have any milk whatsoever, so so yeah. At that point I was exclusively breastfeeding. After a week, but it was eight days, eight days after the baby we were transferred to a different hospital, so that I could have the surgery. And of course, after I had the surgery, you know, my body was just like, No, yeah, there is no milk. There is no milk, like we have nothing to give this baby. And it was after that that I said right this is it. Like, I am not breastfeeding anymore. My baby is hungry, I’m exhausted. Just put him on a bottle. And I remember the poor little so the first time I had a bottle, he just, he was just so you know, gluging it down. Finally, really full for the first time the poor little thing. And  someone else cand do it

P: totally…in the in the US, there is a press now to say fed is best, yeah. Breastfeeding is best because there are all kinds of things that can make breastfeeding just too challenging. And when you go to the other hospital your baby can come with you.

G: You know, my poor husband, so I had to go in the ambulance. Yeah, but my son couldn’t go in the ambulance. and my baby was tube fed. So my husband had to take this tiny tiny little baby who’s being tube fed in the car, the very first time across the city to this hospital neither of us have ever been to. Yeah, and you know what it’s like the first time you, you have your baby in the car. 

P: Yeah. 

G: One of you is always looking at his breathing. We crushed the chest but yes, he didn’t know anyone that and he didn’t really know what he was doing and he was following the ambulance and so it was just so stressful to get across, city with this time and of course some was tiny as well I mean, 4.7 pound is not small, but it was a small for the car seat

P: ours too when we put her in the car seat we were like, oh she doesn’t fit at all….my baby was born early too and if it makes you feel any better. As soon as my husband dropped us off on like the lawn in front of our apartment. He crashed the car, driving it back to the garage he crashed it like it’s stressful. 

G: Yeah, totally, totally. So I had my surgery, but I had to then go on the adult Ward, because the head you know the midwives can’t cope with someone who’s just had a stoma, and they said the adult colorectal Ward can’t cope with a premature baby, that’s been too fast. So he had to actually go into special care. Just so that that was somebody with them all the time, which was you know, that was an eye opener and put things into perspective for us because at the end of the day, we have a lovely healthy little boy. And yeah, I you know was in my wheelchair being wheeled across the sea and we felt guilty actually that he was in special care because he was around, babies who needed to be in special care. Yes, that was, you know, it helps to have a dose of of perspective sometimes I think,

P: yeah, but I’m glad he had that opportunity because this is probably the only circumstance in which you and your husband feel confident that he’s totally cared for by people who know what they are doing

G:Yeah, that took that pressure off…I was on a separate board for two or three days I think and filled with old people’s the youngest person there, and I remember the women on the ward, sort of saying oh you know. Well, it’s worth just got round, but I literally just had a baby, and you have to leave your baby at like eight days old and you know this is a horrific but it decided to probably last because I didn’t really care. Yeah, but you know I can’t be upset about that because I’m just now trying to deal with this stupid bug, that’s on me and leaking all over the place and, and, yeah, couldn’t bend over, I couldn’t do anything. I still obviously had all my tear, my abscess injuries. You know, it’s just the complete mess basically everywhere.

P: That sounds super challenging and I bet you were on high dose antibiotics for the abscess and

G: yeah so, essentially because of the fistula tract was septic but it wasn’t fixed for a year. I had But, basically, a year on metronidazole, which is a really strong. It’s a really strong antibiotic. I was I was basically on that about, well, I was on up pretty much every month for you. It just kept flaring up and getting worse and then it needed drained. As an emergency and hospital and. 

P: Wow

G: Yeah

P: So tell me what happens when you pass the 12 week mark when you’re supposed to be going in for the reversal of the bag

G: Well, we didn’t know it was way before that we realized that it wasn’t going to happen, really, because the hospital wrote to me after I’d been home for a month, and up until that point, I kind of just thought, you know, I’ve just been unlucky. This is just what happens sometimes when you give birth. 

P: Yeah, 

G: but the hospital wrote to me and said, It is not normal. What happened to you, will launch an investigation, and I was like, oh, oh right, so hang on. What do you mean, like the you obviously know something’s up here. 

P: Yeah, 

G: and I was invited to meet the consultant who delivered the baby, and she was profusely apologetic and, I mean, they found out she wasn’t entirely truthful at that meeting, and I stand by what I said to her I said you know I’m not bitter about the whole thing, you’re a human being at the end of the day and you’ve made a mistake, and yes it has had a catastrophic consequences me but if you hadn’t got my baby out when you did, he would have died. Maybe I should have had a C section but I just I don’t know it just didn’t feel right to me to be to.

P: Yeah,

G:  I don’t know angry about it. And I’ve never genuinely, genuinely, never been bitter, just think it’s a pointless emotion. 

P: Yeah, 

G: it wasn’t gonna get me anywhere at all. So I just, I just kind of accepted that she had made a mistake and it has happened but I didn’t realize at that point. Exactly what mistake she had made until I got the results of the investigation, 

P: that seems like a generous response then is also life lengthening for you, because it’s a lot of work to carry around anger for something that happens, that was a mistake.

G: Oh, exactly and, you know, there’s certain members of my family that are extremely bitter about things that have happened in their past life and I’ve seen how that can destroy you. 

P: Yeah, 

G: and how pointless it is and I just think, you know, just so I’m not, I’m not going to go there, it’s it Yeah, it doesn’t, it wasn’t going to make me any better., I mean some people say, Oh, she was sacked. And I said why would you want it to be so like I would feel awful. I said that wouldn’t make me feel any better, 

P: yeah, yeah. 

G: But but yeah so then got the results of the investigation and the investigation found the consultant. Initially, diagnose a second degree tear. She stitched me up with this in mind, and then she thought no, hang on a minute. I actually think I’ve got a third degree tear here, so she took all the stitches down and stitched it back up again. She thought I was fixed. So, she’d  actually missed the fact that I had a fourth degree tear, and the fact that I had a rectovaginal fistula

P: Gill says that the consultants confused what kind of tear she had with the obvious what kind of tear has that work. Well, I mean, it’s hard to say, Would it be obvious 

Dr. M: It’s hard to say would it be obvious….tissue is usually just shredded and bloody and raw and it’s really hard to see clearly what’s happening down there, and it takes, it takes a lot of experience to always be right. And so you can see that the sphincter is torn and you know, I mean you just you just have to be really thorough and do a rectal exam and really check to make sure that things are intact because it’s not so obvious, it’s not just in your face like you have to be a detective to like look and evaluate and really see what’s going on underneath, to be sure that you’re getting the whole story fourth degree tears are not that common… three tears are not that common you know third degree tears are definitely more common, but even that is not as common, and you know you get a third degree tear and you’re like, Oh, is it really a full third degree or is it just partial oh no it can’t be full, no I can’t have done that much damage you know just like symptoms I think we talk ourselves out of how how severe something is, you know, and then once you realize like, okay, it’s a 3rd degree tear, let me fix it,

P: it’s totally interesting to hear because I think as a patient you think everything is over once the baby is out. You think the birth is over, like there’s nothing else to happen, it’s by no means over.

Dr. M: No, by no means over and and you know all repairs are not the same and and all of us do not do the same quality of repair. So I just it just makes me sad. It just makes me sad that it wasn’t fully evaluated it was missed and it Wasn’t repaired. 

G: There was a little bit of debate about whether the fistula was caused by the abscess bursting really sure, well when that was caused to be honest, or it could have been through forceps or just not sure. And it was brought up that you know when she wasn’t entirely sure what she was dealing with, she should have called for the colorectal team to come down for advice, but she didn’t she just carried on. And so as a result, because she used all of this tissue twice to create two lots of stitches, it was really friable yeah and it left no viable tissue to do a repair. So she essentially left me a irrepairable, but also on top of that, my sphincter was so badly damaged externally and internally, which obviously is what a fourth degree tear is but the damage was so profound, I couldn’t be repaired anyway. The way that she she’d she’d made it in part like literally impossible, and it was all because she didn’t want she missed it. So, I mean to cut a long story short, I sued the NHS and I won in two years, which is unheard of. Normally it takes six or seven years. 

P: Oh wow, 

G: but it was pretty it was pretty clear cut, You know she missed it. She botched it. So she didn’t obviously reveal that to me, that would mean. Yeah, but it is what it is.

P: Yeah, certainly not what you expected when you entered this process.

G: No, and I remember things my mother I you know, could I not just had a premature baby did I have to have this on top, you know, a fourth degree tear and then the rectal vaginal fistula, and then abscess and then the stoma….now, still, and because I had a stoma I ended up losing my job, police officer so it was all just like one, it was just snowballing like a wrecking ball..going through my life just throwing things, and yeah, like you say, you know when you get pregnant, especially when I’ve got pregnant so easily and my pregnancy had been so easy. I wasn’t used to being incapacitated in any way, and vulnerable and reliant on anybody. So that was quite difficult. It’s just not who I am, who I have to be. 

P: Yeah, I saw on your blog, you mentioned that in the US we call them near misses, I think, which is seems like a silly way to categorize it but there are 30,000 women in the UK who suffered a severe pregnancy complications after birth.

G: Yeah well it’s 30,000 women every year new UK experiences. Well, as a traumatic birth, there’s can be anything really, but they do say I think something like 20% of women suffer some sort of extensive tearing, and that’s a lot. 

P: That’s a huge number

G: it is a lot. I mean, my particular injuries. Very very slim chance it’s like naught point 5% or something ridiculous I was extremely unlucky but. But yeah, I think it’s cool as a result of childbirth and injuries as a childbirth is so much higher than people realize. Yeah, one of my things is, obviously I’ve got my blog, I’m really open on talk about my injuries, I don’t really care. Who knows what, but also the flip side of my blog is about the fact that you can overcome all of these things and have a positive and happy life, etc, etc, but a few people have said to me oh you know I don’t want to share your blog with my pregnant friends or with people I know that want to get pregnant, because I think it’ll frighten them. I said this is the problem that we have…that people patronize women, and they think that we’re not strong enough to take information. And I said, you know, I wish I had known all the signs and symptoms, were of a fourth degree tear this down right, the day after having a baby if I’d see brown discharge on my underwear out straightaway would have said, Excuse me, I am demanding to be seen I think this might be possibly to this species. This is not right. Yeah, the end of the day, it’s up to women, whether they access this information that they’re don’t not give it to them in the first place. 

P: No, I agree, I agree, more information is probably better to know, especially since you’re supposed to be your own advocate. Yeah, except to some degrees, it is on your shoulders, you know, no one cares about your health more than yourself. So 

G: yeah, exactly, 

P: you sort of need to do need to know these things and he would never tell like a cancer patient not to look at everything that happens when he had cancer. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah so I totally agree with your message. And going back to your blog, I don’t know what word to use, other than to say you’re an incredible athlete. I mean all the things you do I’m pretty risk averse and so I’m looking at the list of this skydiving in the triathlon,

G:  but I’m, I’m quite risk averse, 

P: your about to  swim the English Channel that doesn’t sound risk averse.

G: Oh no, I mean I’m nature frightened about the thing that skydivers off awful. Oh my gosh it was. 

P: So wait, so tell us about all this, so you’re, you’re not pursuing police work anymore and then and then how do you kind of turn it around.

G: I remember seeing on forums people describing their stomas, and saying, Every time I look at my stoma. It reminds me of a horrific reason why I have it, you know, most people have them as a result of bowel cancer or Crohn’s and colitis or whatever. And I remember reading that and thinking well I am not going to look at my stoma like that, because I haven’t saved. That’s going to every day of my life I’m going to be miserable. Yeah, because I’m going to have. So I thought right I’m not actively not going to think like that. So I accepted my stoma pretty early on in that way. It wasn’t until about two or three years down the line that I read an article by an athlete who has a stoma. And she said she had hers as a result of Crohn’s and Colitis, which is a really nasty disease in the, in the bowel, which people suffer, lots of pain for many years. Yeah, then they get a stoma, and it makes them a lot better. And she said you know I’m so thankful for everything that the stoma has given me..it was like a light bulb, and I suddenly thought, well, hang on, it’s all been about what the server’s taken away, took away my job, it took away my bond with my baby. it took away my lovely maternity leave. You know, it’s, it’s taken away so much. And then I thought, well no, hang on, I actually think about this, what does the stoma do why have you got the stoma. Was that right, well I’ve got it because otherwise I would be incontinent, I’d be pulling my pants. And if that was the case, I’ll be wearing adult nappies or diapers, or I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be leaving the house, so I thought, oh, actually. Look what it’s actually enabled me to do. I can leave the house and go for walks and go swimming and it was it was a revelation. So then I looked into it a bit more, and looked into what stoma products used to be like in the like the 1950s, and what we’ve got now these are amazing, but they’re so discreet and waterproof and you could just do whatever you want with a stoma so then as you start to think right. I am going to go out there and I’m going to do absolutely Every single thing that I’ve wanted to do, because I’ve had. Yeah, definitely. While I was completely incapacitated by the fistula and everything else yeah I just thought, you know, I’m not incapacitated anymore. I just need to get out there and make the most of the life that I’ve got. And that’s not right. Well, the first thing I’m going to do is I’m going to lose weight, cause obviously I was heavily overweight, so I joined as an indoor cycling class. I thought right well I could do that because there’ll be a toilet nearby. It’s not scary. So if, if I get absolutely exhausted after 45 seconds. I can just stop I’m not gonna be in the middle of the countryside. So join the cycling class, and I loved it. I was really unfit though I could only stand up like once on the pedals. But it was actually run by a local Triathlon Club. and I’d always wanted to do a triathlon, when I was younger, because I’ve always been pretty sporty, but I’ve always said you know I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t do that…far too tiring and but then I just started to think, Well, why shouldn’t you like all these other people do traveling, why shouldn’t you have a go and you actually now have the ability to do this, you know, just remember that year when you couldn’t even walk anywhere, or you can’t. And I thought right that’s it, I’m going to sign up to do a triathlon. So I signed up to do a triathlon sorted out my swimming and got back into running and cycling, I mean I wasn’t by any stretch of the imagination, spectacular, but I was able to do all these three things, and I went to this first triathlon and the organizers were fantastic, because they’ve never had anyone with a stoma do it before and I had like 10 million zillion questions about what happens if I got badly, and well I get disqualified about to go and change it and all these sorts of things and, you know, there were really kind and there was sort of saying you know this isn’t the Olympics, you’re not getting this, you know, it will be fine. So I went off and did it and I was just so I just thought right well there you go that’s one thing you thought you could never do. Do not cry describe life is like. It’s all about getting the little bricks, and that was like my first little brick. Yeah, so then I went to get my next little brick, and that was like the next stage talks on I did. And so that was after. After that, the tribe club on mass decided to enter a half Ironman, which is a 1.2 mile swim, a 56 mile bike ride, and a 13.1 mile run. I just thought I might want to get right I’m going to do it so I signed up to do it, but part of doing this. Half Ironman was I had to do open water swimming. Now I’m terrified of open water swimming about absolutely terrified. You will no doubt remember the ridiculous film jaws. 

P: Yes, 

G: which we all so, you know, I watched that when I was eight, and it terrified me out of the sea for 30 odd years. I had to face up to that fear really to do that section of it, and I did. I mean I went off and did my half Ironman. It sounds really easy but it wasn’t really hard, 

P: nothing about this sounds easy. I assure you…

G: And that was actually when I decided to come really public about my story and what has happened to me, because I decided to raise money for the birth trauma Association, So I went in the local paper and all that sort of thing and on the BBC Radio Newcastle and I was out there for the first time with my whole story, I raised 5000 pounds for the birth trauma association which was, I was really pleased with that was like the next brick. And the next one that I wanted to get was I wanted to get back my love of the sea. My love of open water because when I, when I was eight, I was actually learning how to sail, and I was like a little, I was like a little fish, I was always in the water. And I thought, You know what I want to reclaim that and it was all about getting back control over my life. Because so much that had happened to me had been out of my control, I lose my job and my injuries and all that sort of thing. And then I just thought, no, you know what I’m not having fear like me what I can and can’t do. So anything that I’m frightened of. I’m gonna damn well beat it because I’m in charge of my life. So I joined a local group of sea swimmers, and I mean it’s a bit of a joke between us all, because for a year and a half, literally a year and a half, I couldn’t open my eyes when my face was in the water, because if I couldn’t see what’s underneath me, I’d have a panic, like a panic attack. 

P: Yeah, 

G: I mean I went to the same beach, with the same people all the time, and they were all really really confident, and eventually a friend said, you know, if you don’t open your eyes in the water, you can swim into a rock, it’s actually a practical benefit. 

P: Yeah. 

G: Okay, so I then tried like three seconds at a time, five seconds at a time opening my eyes and, and then I did it when it was the water was really clear and then I could see that there…then just all of a sudden I don’t know my brain must have just got anything tonight. Okay, it’s fine. Fine, you can do this and I can’t get that really I mean I do still have a lot of fears of open water sample I would never, but I say never, I’m gonna have to swim on my own for the open water, and swimming in the dark… It’s really liberating and exhilarating and addictive actually overcoming things makes you feel really powerful. And the more that I overcome the more powerful, I feel, and yeah I just I don’t like to be beaten, really. A big part of it is, it’s showing my son that what happened during his birth hasn’t ruined my life by any stretch of imagination, you know, it’s actually ended up empowering me. 

P: how did you end up skydiving?

G: We only went skydiving, because my two friends were going skydiving, and I had a little thought in my head was, wonder what it’s like everyone says it’s amazing. And my husband said but Gill You cry on aeroplanes and you’re terrified of heights. Everyone says that. And I was like, Yep, I do want to get to like 80 and be like, Oh, I really wish I do not skydive so I mean I did it and I was completely hysterical before. I mean hysterical. And when, when I landed. it was being videoed, and the guy was attached to the guy that was filming that was some exit that wasn’t it was just awful. I’m sure I gave myself PTSD all over again. It was awful. But I did it and so then again I was just like well yeah, we go I never thought I could do that so well I just spent the whole winter in a bikini, three times a week in the North Sea so raising money again for the birth trauma association so that was something I never thought I could do stand out in the cold like that and get my stoma bag and public for everybody to see. So they were two more things I wondered if I was able to do was set that up. Good, gave me more confidence. Ultimately, I’ve signed up to like you said before from the English Channel solo, And I’d be the first ostimate to do so, but I’m saying that really blase but actually inside I’m quite hysterical

P: that this is an amazing list of accomplishments, how long is the English Channel. How wide is it. 

G: It’s 21 miles, but you end up somewhere about 25 Because of the current. 

P: Good lord and how long is it supposed that take 

G: about 14 hours. about…

P: And you don’t eat while you’re in the water. 

G: oh no,  you do. So there’s, yeah there’s really strict rules on what you do, so you have to wear a regulation size swimming costume. Basically nothing that covers like your legs or arms. Swimming cap, goggles. That’s it. And then once you’ve started swimming you’re not allowed to touch the boat, and no one is allowed to touch you. So to get fed, they get a pole, and they, they use it either a cup or a bowl or something, to give food to you and then you can get it out of there, but you can’t stop to feed for too long because the current so strong that you could be swept like 500 meters, which doesn’t sound like much, but 

P: who’s making rules, there’s a governing board?

G: the English Channel Swimming Association because you actually have to have a channel observer with you on the boat, making sure that all the rules are followed, it’s the pinnacle of open water swimming, and more people have climbed Everest than have swim the channel.

P: I bet, good lord

G:  Yeah, so when you swim the channel you, that’s a bold start at Dover stove is where you start off and there’s a board with people’s names on who’s from the channel. 

P: Wow. 

G: Yeah, so you don’t get to put your name on our board unless you follow exactly the same rules as everybody else so you really could do without all of that but wouldn’t be official.

P: That is totally amazing and it makes complete sense to me that more people have climbed in the Himalayas, which I’m superficially I’m sure it doesn’t seem as hard as it actually is although I think people can well understand how hard it seems to swim 25 miles in open water. I am totally gonna donate to that effort, I’m so excited for you. I’m very excited and a little upset that they will let you wear a wetsuit

G: Oh yeah, I know, no, that’s the challenge isn’t it. And this is what attracts me to swim in the channel as well as opposed to something like the Himalayas, because in the Himalayas, you can get to boots and somebody else, you can get a sherpa who’s going to carry all your stuff, you know like, there are ways to make it easier. Yeah. When you swim the channel, it’s, it’s you that you can’t it there’s nothing that you can do that is going to make it easier for you compared to somebody else, you know, other than your training and things like that it’s all down to you. So that’s why I find it so when you cross it, that is, that is your achievement obviously you’ve got your whole team behind you, so they’re part of that but it is you in that channel.

P: So, that is totally amazing. I hope they filmed part of it.

G: I am in the documentary I am being filmed for a documentary so no pressure at all

P:  good. Well, again, hopefully they’ll be good editing if it’s necessary. 

G: Yeah,

P: I am super excited for you. That sounds awesome. Your story is a prime example of taking the challenges of birth and being resilient with them and sort of turning it all around so I’m so appreciative that you share this story for us today, it is amazing and I think another thing that’s kind of really relatable in your story is that so many women get dismissed when they bring up pain or other elements in the birth that they found challenging, you know almost everyone has a story where that that plays some small role, where they say, Oh, is this, and someone says no, you’re fine, which has to be changed his crazy approach to healthcare, and as in the UK, the US the near misses, which are considered severe pregnancy complications, is like, on the order of 60,000 women every year. And here for sure it’s categorized hemorrhage or hysterectomy or some kind of clot that doesn’t count all the trolls, I’m sure if you counted everything that was traumatic it would be a much larger number. Yeah, but it is something that I think we need to we need to fix for kids.

G: Yeah, I mean at the end of the day with us. We’re the ones bringing the next generation into the world, so we need to be looked after we’re important. The mother is the cornerstone of the family, family unit and if we don’t look after our mothers that we’re not looking after our family unit, and therefore we’re just not looking after society, so it should be discussed it should be talked about and we should be supportive and we should be relieved. We’re not asking for much. But yes, asking for basic rights.

P: Oh completely and my guess is it’s even trickier in the UK because maternal mortality rate is really good internationally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s when people focus on,

G: I mean since I’ve become more public the amount of women that I know that have contacted me and have said, you know, gosh I had x y and Zed and, thank you so much for speaking out and you just think that so many women are just suffering, suffering in silence and, and the winter bikini challenge that I did, I had a sign on the beach saying I have a stoma, as a result of traumatic childhoods, I’m trying to raise awareness of these issues. The amount of women that stopped me on the beach and we, we didn’t necessarily have long conversations. For a lot of them, they just said, Thank you so much, and that’s all it says. And that’s all there. Needless to say, Well, they didn’t even need to say that but now, and that was countless women that I met, and I just think you know and I just live in the Northeast of England. But I think there is, I think there’s definitely gonna be more more of us being more vocal about it more prepared to Cooper first and, you know, breaking down the stigma of being so public about it and saying, This is not a failure of our bodies here. We’re not bad mothers because we haven’t given birth properly, that’s not nothing to do with that. I think that’s messages gradually getting through to women so that feel more able to speak up. Yeah, you

P: know, the alternative name of this podcast was gonna be, it’s only fucking reproduction. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. To expect to do it seamlessly it’s just Yes, doesn’t even make sense right it’s, 

G: yeah, Yeah, exactly.

P:  So I totally appreciate your story, I will look forward to posting all, all the snippets I can from your site on in the show notes so people can follow you. Over this Thank you. I’m assuming we can donate to the effort just from the channel right sponsor you, or something.

G: Yeah, so it’s on my website which is www dot stoma chameleon.com It’s on the very first page of it, there’s a little bit of blurb and a link there to sponsor me. It’s actually on a GoFundMe, but you’re not giving me money to do this when all the money is good the charity and I’ve had to do it that way because I’m fundraising for three separate charities, so I was there any way I could do it. So the first is the birth trauma Association. Second is colostomy, okay. And then the third one is the Jacobs well appeal, which is actually really important to me because they send out products and supplies to countries like the Philippines, where they don’t have anything like that. You know kids are using things like plastic bags and tin cans and things like that, Lord,

P: yeah that sounds amazing. That sounds like amazing work.

G: Yeah, it’s so important so you know I just want them to have the products to enable them to live the life that it just even to go out and go for a walk. Yeah, so that’s what I’m fundraising for and that’s where you can find, find the details.

P: Thank you again so much for coming on to share your story,

G: but thank you very much for inviting me on very, very honest we’ve been outstanding you very much.

P: Thanks so much to Gill for sharing her story. You can find her at stomachameleon.com, and follow her quest to cross the english channel, and raise awareness and money for women who’ve experienced birth trauma, and for other stoma patients. Thanks also to Dr. matityahu for her expertise, and for alerting people to the occurrence of fistula, which she said is uncommon in well resourced countries, because if women push for 3 hours unsuccessfully, they can get a C section, but in under resourced countries women can push for days, which she said often leads to death for the newborn and life changing physical consequences for the mother. You can find her organization, beyond fistula at beyondfistula.org

Thanks so much for listening. If you liked this show, feel free to like or subscribe, or go to Gill’s page or dr. matityahu’s to get more details about the incredible work they are doing.

we’ll be back soon with another story about how women handle the challenges they face in their efforts to grow their family